46256 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 My local station (Shirley) was rather far from home and trains ended up at Moor Street, so usually it was the Midland Red bus! New Street station was surrounded by model shops and dealers in electronic 'junk' in Hurst Street.the shop in Burlington arcade now long gone, in addition to model railways had beautifully painted soldiers 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 GBL western with filler piece added moving roof cowl forwrd, sill reduced, this left the glazing unit with a too prominent rear widow frame, have removed rear window, filed thinner will replace with new clear pane in due courseimage.jpg On seeing this, I had to compare the GBL / Lima clone shell with the current Dapol model which I think many accept as being as correct as it is possible to achieve. I found some interesting points which, in typical Lima style, are all over the place, as follows (this is not an exhaustive list, and you will probably spot others that I've missed): 1. Overall body length almost correct, and bodyside windows and cooler group grilles are in correct positions 2. Roof line / cowl too short by about 2mm each end 3. Cowl front arc not "flattened" on top 4. Rectangular roof transverse patches above cab too far back by about 1mm each 5. Roof cover plates all too short, causing weird optical effects. 6. Roof fan grilles should be off-centre, but walkways are correctly placed! There could be a lot more sawing than I first thought!! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Horsetan, can you measure the Dapol model from the cab door handrail to the front corner of the cab, along the bottom edge? Need to see where the difference is between the two models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nighthawk Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The difference is magnified in the second photograph as the GBL body is further from the camera. It doesn't look nearly as obvious in the top picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 A picture ...worth s thousand words...horsetan the two locos together and assuming the Dapol more accurate the darker maroon seems to be the answer thank you...my GBL rework was going to need a repaint anyway...have replaced the filed out window pane and am happy with result...have parts left over from my initial brassmasters only using the window etch.. Will apply these...ie headcode frames...fan and walkway....will also fashion new larger horn cowls at front of roof....seems a long way from stephensons valve gear black fives...it has at any rate made me more discerning over these later forms of traction Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Looking at horsetan's pictures realise no amount of working, certainly by me is going to equal the Dapol model...a lovely creature....but I shall enjoy the effort and hopefully produce a worthy " layout" model... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Horsetan, can you measure the Dapol model from the cab door handrail to the front corner of the cab, along the bottom edge? Need to see where the difference is between the two models. I'll get the digital calipers out with the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I'll get the digital calipers out with the camera. I've managed to do the same today at Showcase so no need to rush now! But if you still could, just in case I measured wrong! Cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) Here are the measurements, Dapol first, GBL second. This suggests that the GBL body is 1.2mm short over the total length at the very base. Edited May 31, 2015 by Horsetan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf27 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Thanks, confirms my suspicions! Plan B then! Cheers Shane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) The thing with the GBL/Lima body is that Lima didn't make mistakes in a constant or linear manner; the errors are distributed all over the shell! For example, the bodyside windows are correctly positioned but, on further examination, the cooler group grilles have been stretched, so that the innermost ones of the trio are further back than they should be, yet the outermost ones are correct! "46256" shows the right way by lengthening the roof over the cab, but that's just part of the strategic hacking that you can do if you really want to go the whole hog. The cowl fronts themselves need lengthening in the way Brassmasters suggests but if you combine it with "46256"'s roof-stretching trick, then you might not need to add as much material to the front. All the roof cover panels need correcting in some way: for example, the roof fan grille panels need shortening, whilst the adjacent inner panels need stretching. Also, if you lengthen the body - as you will have to do if you want to stuff a Dapol chassis into it - then that might lead to the cooler group grilles shifting into the wrong place.... It's almost as if Lima had done it in such a way as to sabotage anyone trying to correct the shell. With the drafting / planning / tooling technology available in the late 1970s - none of this computer 3D scanning malarkey back then - it must have cost Lima a fair amount of money to get it all wrong, so the question has to be asked: would it have cost them the same amount of money to get it right? Edited May 31, 2015 by Horsetan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 It seems to me that GBL have copied the colour from Hornby's Western Courier model from the late 1970s which had a brighter red rather than maroon. I don't think I'll be looking for any extras as the Lima models are quite easy to find for a reasonable price. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 It seems to me that GBL have copied the colour from Hornby's Western Courier model from the late 1970s which had a brighter red rather than maroon.... The feel of the plastic itself is quite slippery as well. Very strange grade. Will have to test it with solvent and see if it "takes"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Brit70053 Posted May 31, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 31, 2015 . With the drafting / planning / tooling technology available in the late 1970s - none of this computer 3D scanning malarkey back then - it must have cost Lima a fair amount of money to get it all wrong, so the question has to be asked: would it have cost them the same amount of money to get it right? Rovex/ Tri-Ang/ Hornby always used to suggest that they could produce true 'scale' models for the same cost as the 'representations' which populated their catalogues back in the day, so I suppose the same would have applied in the case of Lima had they wanted to 'get it right'. Thankfully 'modern Day' Hornby eventually decided to produce far more accurate scale models, though they don't seem to have tackled any deficiencies in the superstructures of the former Lima range they now own and largely deploy in the Railroad range. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 (edited) .... if you want to stuff a Dapol chassis into it.... ...which I now can't do as I seem to have snaffled a spare Heljan "Western" chassis. Plots were made for thickening. Edited May 31, 2015 by Horsetan 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Whilst working on the western I have nearly completed a final model of a quartert of signal boxes that existed at my chosen real life location during the 1960s. The first two are respectively the pre 1962 Midland Railway design, it's successor a British Railways standard design..the third a 1940 ARP design all concrete and brick...and lastly a smaller version of the British rail standard design, as mentioned. The last two controlled an important junction and marshalling yards. The point the last model ...I have no plans for any model only photos..well it complies with the overall dimensions as to its bigger sister the replacement 62 BR box...but smaller. It dimensions seem right mathematically but visually something is amiss. The point....sometimes the model can look right..or indeed wrong no matter the application of the statistics ..rest assured the last model will in due course satisfy its fiercest critic...me before being signed off ready to be added to my layout.. I have to admit however my western probably will not be judged as harshly by me..being purely an object if enjoyment rather than an endeavour to recreate as accurately as possible the railway of my youth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) I always understood that BR maroon was standard and applied to coaches and locomotives (and the same as MR/LMS crimson*). Red paints are notorious for changing hue due to factors like undercoats, varnish and weathering etc. As regards the 'Western' the picture on the card backing tallies with my memory of the real thing, but GBL's does not. *The paint formulation changed, but the colour is supposedly the same (The NRM uses the same paint for MR, LMS and BR, but apparently it has been remarked on the superiority of the Midland shade. Edited June 1, 2015 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 ....sometimes the model can look right..or indeed wrong no matter the application of the statistics ..... Y'know, I tend to think "sod it". It needs correcting, so I'm going to make it as right as I can. There are things you can do with this bodyshell, and it would be silly not to have a go and take it as far as possible. There's a working chassis I can plonk it on (needs P4 wheelsets), so the mechanicals are already looked after. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted June 1, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2015 ...which I now can't do as I seem to have snaffled a spare Heljan "Western" chassis. Plots were made for thickening. Ah - you may well have outbid me last night Ivan Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Ah - you may well have outbid me last night Ivan It wasn't a last minute bid either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Just read my post of last night...blimey...wordy or what...the result of a very good Sunday dinner and amiable company...and a little libation...thankfully horsetan made sense of it and delivered its point.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 ...and a little libation...... ....I was about to ask what sort of libation this was. I'd like some, although it could lead to the use of my scalpel being a bit more dangerous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Thanks Horsetan...a little out of context one of the signal boxes mentioned, with a Bachmann peak ...originally a class 46, howver has had the heavy grilles fitted to it to make D9 Snowdon...this had a new cab fitted after accident damage. The other end has had nose doors and headcode discs fitted. The photo shows the real box from which I've taken the dimensions from. A case of counting brick courses to get an approximation of height, length etc... The lovely signage is from station signs.. You may recall had intended to use the GBL peak...but never happy with the shape of the nose, so in the end sacrificed one of my many class 46 ones. Anyone who knows my modelling location will know during the period I model...60s to 70s pre tops these locos were plentiful 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
46256 Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 ....I was about to ask what sort of libation this was. I'd like some, although it could lead to the use of my scalpel being a bit more dangerous. actually a very good Rioja....as to scalpel managed to stab my thigh whilst making the box...I was temporarily like an extra from a game of thrones battle scene Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) The Western is the first GBL I've pondered over (in Fenwicks Newcastle this afternoon). The reason? Plain nostalgia, we all went over to Paddington one lunchtime from Kings Cross CCE's Dept in 1961 to eye one up, compared to our own (truly) awesome Deltics. It still strikes me as too obviously 'designer styled' which of course it was (by Misha Black ), though it is so evocative of those COID years - and their Kite Marks on everything from knives and forks through purple plastic Ecko portable radios to Morris 1100s. So I may get the Western and paint it Desert Sand like the one we 'inspected'. dhig Edited June 1, 2015 by runs as required 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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