Millers Dale in the 80s - BR Peak Line in N

[eastwestdivide]

No worries chief, heres a couple of 37's ...

<snip>

Cheers.

 

Love the pics - pardon my ignorance, but where's the big viaduct in the pic called "37679 681.jpg" ?

[Scott B]

Looks like the one just south of Buxton on the line to Hindlow to me. Hope that helps.

 

Scott

[richard60098]

Love the pics - pardon my ignorance, but where's the big viaduct in the pic called "37679 681.jpg" ?

Hi there the beautiful viaduct yes thats Dukes Drive Viaduct near Buxton on the Dowlow line, unfortunately now the trees and bushes are huge here so this photograph is not on anymore! Thou there may be a chance from the other side still or a closer more looking up view perhaps?

 

Cheers:)

[eastwestdivide]

Hi there the beautiful viaduct yes thats Dukes Drive Viaduct near Buxton on the Dowlow line, unfortunately now the trees and bushes are huge here so this photograph is not on anymore! Thou there may be a chance from the other side still or a closer more looking up view perhaps?

 

Cheers:)

Aha. Doesn't look too bad on Google street view actually.

Sorry for the diversion, back to Millers Dale now.

[richard60098]

Some lovely pictures there Richard. Particularly interested to see none refurb 37s including a distribution and a br blue example. I feel I may get myself another 37 to do in br blue which can then be pushed onto a variety of services. The pair of 37s I have are pretty stereotyped as stone haulers! Nice to see my 37 (37688) on the first pic! Some great modelling inspiration for me here. Although Im not seeing the '66' picture.

Hi Cav, apologies i've not been on for a few days many thanks on the pics and yes i added 688 in the earlier guise for you with black grills and big numbers as of course the later version of her was 90's onwards.

On the blue 37's yes i have a few shots here of blue examples still turning up in the late 80's and early 90's which was a bit rare but i have vids with them banking ici hoppers and also double heading with BX 37/5's too, also of note there were a few Railfreight plain grey 37/7's & 5's working of BX for a short while before they finally headed of to Canton! 37689 been one that sticks in my mind as they literally only had her there straight out of the box from Crewe Works a few days before they smashed her nose up and of course then she was back to Crewe again to be fixed, i don't think they let her go back to Buxton after that! Thou it wasn't the only time as i could go on all day about how many incidents happened to there loco's one more is when they banged a pair of Buxton 37/5's straight in to another pair bending the noses on all 4 machines!

 

I can reel of numbers for you of none BX 37's that did appear if you fancy modelling any of those? Also ex TE Choppers which came over and solidly worked the ICI Hoppers for a while too which was nice.

 

So then yes that picture didn't upload as it was too big but here it is again with a few others which may be of interest including the very common black painted headcode boxs which most at one stage or another seem to of had applied and i loved that feature

 

Oh and a link here http://www.phantasrail.co.uk/rh_class_37.htm she may be a little past your era but what a beast to see double heading on PHV ICI's back then.

 

Thanks.

[richard60098]

Aha. Doesn't look too bad on Google street view actually.

Sorry for the diversion, back to Millers Dale now.

 

Yes actually looking at the pic its taken from the fields side not the road side which leads up to Dowlow so yes that fot is still on but of course the only thing your gona get up there now is a db 60 or 66 and i don't like really going out of my way for a 60 and definately don't for a shed lol

[P.C.M]

Some great pics Richard, I like the banger blue machines but 37259 with ploughs looks like a good one to model. I think you need to get some more class 37s Cav.

 

Look forwards to seeing the class 31 progress.

 

cheers Peter.

[RBE]

I agree Peter. 37s are a bit of a mascot of the peak forest area of the 80s. 259 does look good but not sure it was like that in 88. I reckon a banger blue none refurb and maybe a metals 5er would be good.

[Grimleygrid]

Some absolutely lovely Tractor photos Richard, Red Stripe Railfreight really did suit them. Cav will have fun playing with double headed 37/5s on Millers Dale.

What about some Chopper action, a nice pair of battered BR blue machines?!!

 

Always nice to see a BR Blue 31/4 on Mk1s/Mk2s. Reminds me of the Birmingham to Norwich services.

[RBE]

20s are on my list. Looking at about £90 a piece though for the nice new tooled ones. Ill have to save my pennies up. I agree about the 31/4 soon it will remind you of the Nottingham to Manchester Vic services!! Haha.

[Grimleygrid]

Wow £90 each, that is expensive. Still this hobby seems to be getting more expensive by the day! Still I will stop there.

 

Look forward to it!

[richard60098]

Some great pics Richard, I like the banger blue machines but 37259 with ploughs looks like a good one to model. I think you need to get some more class 37s Cav.

 

Look forwards to seeing the class 31 progress.

 

cheers Peter.

Hello Peter and thankyou squire thats much appreciated 37259 oh my yes what a beast i've actually fotted her @ Buxton this year which was sureal barring the fact she was on yellow coaches doh! Still nice thou.

 

And yes 37 heaven up Buxton a nice mixed rake is most definately needed but with 20's 31's & 47's aswell of course if modelling late 80's hell uou could push the boat out and have 25059 sat there out of service as she was the last Rat to leave and the very last 25 to be withdrawn, BX men even tried hiding her in the back of the TMD but got a phone call of Crewew saying can we have our withdrawn 25 back now please! lol

 

Here you go this might tempt you Cav? 37259 be it in 4mm but look at this Buxton beast with sound + the wagons!! Not drooling much here!

[richard60098]

I agree Peter. 37s are a bit of a mascot of the peak forest area of the 80s. 259 does look good but not sure it was like that in 88. I reckon a banger blue none refurb and maybe a metals 5er would be good.

Here you go Cav, just had a look through my friends pics, 37259 early 88 in t,t,g

https://www.flickr.com/photos/terry47401/12203231883/in/photolist-jAM6dc-jAM5Vi-jDruBj-jAmKFH-d26xDd-cTwdBL-cT11of-dV8Tab-9Goefy-dV3iit

[RBE]

Dont get me started on the price of stock! Im a little sicknto think I need to part with £180 for basically one trains haulage. If ever a dummy loco was required the 20 is it. £20 to £25 would be about right as it would be basically a coach then a powered one at say £70. Now that would be fair.

[RBE]

Oh yes 259 it is then Richard. Ill just get my cheque book!

[richard60098]

Some absolutely lovely Tractor photos Richard, Red Stripe Railfreight really did suit them. Cav will have fun playing with double headed 37/5s on Millers Dale.

What about some Chopper action, a nice pair of battered BR blue machines?!!

 

Always nice to see a BR Blue 31/4 on Mk1s/Mk2s. Reminds me of the Birmingham to Norwich services.

Cheers Grimley they were and still are my favourite class of loco, the sound could be heard for 10 minutes sometimes before you could even see them slogging away on hoppers very happy days the 31/4's and none ETH examples too thou they always turned up! I remember 31327 looking very smart with a Departmental Grey Ped on the Hoppers once that was a nice surprise thou never got bored of seeing red stripe Tractors on anything up there either.

 

Thanks Rich

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi Cav,

 

I think £25 is a little optimistic. You basically need everything except the motor and the driveshafts if you want it lit, and to roll properly you'd need bogies tooled to accept pinpoint axles, though I do think this could've been done at the design stage.

 

Nevertheless, I think a dummy 20 would've been around £40-45.

 

From a marketing point of view, I don't really know why they haven't done a twin pack - one powered, one dummy with complementary liveries and numbers - for about the price of a two car DMU - say £130ish.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

[RBE]

Yes I dont know why they havent. Oh hang on I do. They can force people to buy two powered ones, if they really want a pair, for more money so why bother? Lighting asside (which Id happily not have on a 20 tbh) there really is no reason why it should be more than the price of a coach. A new coach is designed and produced from scratch and is still around the £20 mark. Modifying existing drawings to produce tooling for the 20 would be much cheaper than designing from scratch and the tooling apart from for the bogies which no longer need to be powered and need pinpoints is exactly the same as for the standard loco. I really dont see where the extra cost over a coach would come into it.

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Cav,

 

I agree with you 100% that dummy locos - especially Class 20s - would be very good news indeed, but if we are to convince manufacturers that it is worth their while then I believe we modellers have to have realistic expectations about pricing.

 

This is what I think Farish would have to consider if they were discussing the business case for producing a dummy Class 20 instead of something else:

 

Though I understand you would not want lighting, I think the market now expects it.  Anyone at Farish suggesting a dummy loco with no lights would, I suspect, be very sharply told by the sales team to think again!

 

So let's accept the dummy loco needs lights - therefore it also needs pick-ups and a PCB.  The PCB is designed to mount on the weight, usually, so you either tool a replacement piece of plastic to serve this function, or you include the weight.

 

The loco bogies are designed to accept a drive train, so if you want to assemble free rolling ones then you need to tool new bogie sideframes that work with pinpoints, and you need to source axle-cup bearings to pick up for the lights.

 

Now, let's assume you decide to go to this trouble.  To be financially viable, in very simple terms, the cost of (new tooling + moulding existing parts + assembly and painting + packaging and shipping + profit) has to be less than (trade price x number produced).

 

So the next question is how many will you sell - and how many should you produce?  Will everyone who buys a Class 20 want to have it in a pair?  Maybe 50% of your customers will, but even then probably only for BR Blue, and Railfreight, not necessarily for green.  So you're looking at no more than 500-1000 in any livery, and a total of 1000-1500.  To amortise your production costs across such small numbers means the unit cost has to be higher than for a coach, where people need more of them and you will probably sell 5000-10000 fairly easily.

 

On top of this you only have limited production slots, so every item you produce is at the expense of something else you could be doing that may be more profitable, or demanded by a noiser section of your customer base.

 

And all this ignores well documented cost rises in China.

 

This, I would argue, is why the pricing of a dummy loco is never going to be the same as a coach.

 

Incidentally, the best dummy "locos" I have seen are the Kato dummy Eurostar power cars; they are essentially a powered car missing the motor and driveshafts.  That probably costs less than tooling new components and then and gearing up your production lines for a significantly different product.  However, Kato only managed this because their power bogies, with gears fitted, are so beautifully engineered that they are free running enough to actually roll.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[RBE]

I follow the economics of it and I understand what is required or indeed needed to justify producing such items. Your points are well made and I am sure reflect the thinking that drives companies such as Bachmann. However lets not gloss over the fact that as a manufacturer they are driven purely by financial gain and as such will likely never even consider a dummy class 20 as they do just fine selling fully powered pairs without the extra agro and reduced profit obtained by selling dummy locos. I would love to see a dummy 20 but for no other reason than being able to obtain a pair (which was pretty much a 100% gaurantee in the time period I model) as a reasonable cost, and by reasonable I mean the pair for less than £100. A power and dummy combination of that or less would get my attention anything over that and I would raise an eyebrow and walk by. I personally (as someone with not a great deal of spare cash to play with) cannot even contemplate buying any of the current range as new locos let alone cough up the cash for a pair. My whole fleet are ebay bargain wins and Im glad for it otherwise I wouldnt be in the hobby quite frankly. Bachmann really dont benefit from my cash, the reseller does. If the selling prices could be reduced and profits (which is cash beyond what it takes to produce the models) nipped a little they may well win some of the second hand market cash. Whichbin turn would help keep second hand prices down at a sensible level. Instead we have to pay well over the odds for a used piece (£12 for a second hand poole coach is crazy for instance) and take out a mortgage if we want to cross Bachmanns palms with silver. I understand business but the railway community deserves better. Whats wrong with providing models that people want 'just because'. As long as costs are covered and wages are paid. A profit is necessary to fund future development but how many more models would they sell is people werent forced to buy second hand. Its the weigh up between large margins with low sales or small margins with a lot of more sales. The overall profits are probably comparible but they'd be selling more stuff and keeping the customers on side. I know what Id rather do. Anyway rant over. I rarely win this one as people on this forum at least seem happy to pay more than I am happy to. In the meantime I will carry on scouring ebay and looking for bargains which nowadays translates to a 10er off the rrp from Bachmann for some reason!!

[JBM37404]

Dapol do dummy pairs of 86s and 156 trailers so there must be a way of making it stack up...

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Cav,

 

I don't think any of us are especially happy at paying higher prices, but we accept perhaps that they are a necessary evil - after all, the recent price rises are driven by increasing labour costs in China, which are largely a function of people there demanding the same sort of living standards that we enjoy here, and which seems fair enough to me.

 

Besides, apart from the Japanese and American markets which can take advantage of vast economies of scale, most modellers have to pay more than we do in Britain; look at the price of models on the continent.

 

Having said that, the budget seems largely irrelevant to the superb modelling you're doing  - so inspirational and please keep it coming!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[RBE]

Dapol do dummy pairs of 86s and 156 trailers so there must be a way of making it stack up...

I was thinking of Dapols dummy stuff tbh. Dapol do seem keener to give modellers what they want. I have no doubt if Dapol did a 20 it would have a power dummy twin pack.

 

Ben I agree with your comments. Im happy to buy second hand as I just attack them with tools and paint in any case. It would just be nice to be able to buy a loco in the right colour to start with rather then make do with what I can get! Having said that the work I do on them usually means a full respray in any case. The 20 is just a frustration for me as it seems impossible to pick up a bargain with them.

[P.C.M]

Don't get me started on the price of stock these days, I am lucky in that I have most of what I want.

Looks like you will have to find a few more class 37s Cav I think 259 has to be a goer. A nice blue machine would be nice, the pic of 37100 would be an interesting model different nose ends and missing fuel tank.

 

Hi Richard, I have a pic of 25059 at Buxton in an old Rail mag, I think it was March 87 so a bit out of cavs timescale. I worked back to Cewe towing a damaged 37/5. Nice vid too.

 

cheers Peter.

[RBE]

Yes Ive pretty much nailed the layout to around June 1988 by having both 45110 and 37688 in triple grey. A 25 would not have been around when the 37 was painted. By the same token I cant go the other way and have class 60s. The 45 would be long gone and 47190 was repainted in petroleum sector later on in the year!

Edited November 5, 2014 by RBE