140-ton 'Gunset' wagons

[Allegheny1600]

I know it's not a 'Railway Gun' per se but these were developed by the US military from the big German railway guns;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_Atomic_Cannon

I wonder where in Europe these were stationed, presumably Germany?

 

Under test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXCWgqBSH8Q

Mighty impressive!

(& it was delivered by rail!)

''enjoy''

John E.

[Clive Mortimore]

I know it's not a 'Railway Gun' per se but these were developed by the US military from the big German railway guns;

Mighty impressive!

(& it was delivered by rail!)

''enjoy''

John E.

 

Hi John

 

A very impressive gun. The dual recoil carriage owes more to the German 21 cm Kanone 38 than any rail mounted gun. The Germans copied it from a French gun 220mm Canon Mle 17.

[jonhall]

Although not wishing to let the topic slip from the main subject too much i'd really like to ask a question regarding concrete beam wagons... How many were there available at any one time for the transport of concrete beams? 

 

From the BR 'classification of special wagons' booklet

 

1953 issue gives

 

LMS dia 137 50TGirdwagMA 263369 263370, 269943, 269944

LMS dia 137A 70T Girdwag MB 5045, 5046

GW Dia 3 40T Girdwag WG 32991 32992

GW Dia 2 40T Girdwag WC 48985, 48986

GW dia 2 40T Girdwag WF 32989 32990

GW dia 2 60T Girdwag WB 48979 48980, 48981, 48982, 48999, 49000

GW dia 4 60T Girdwag WE 84997, 84998, 84999 85000

 

the 1956 issue has the same list and my copy added in hand 907500-503 (2 pair)

 

the 1964 issue has only

LMS dia 137A 70T Girdwag MB 5045, 5046

and

BR dia 150 40T Girdwag WG 907500-507 these could either be new build, or rebuilds that justified a recode of the GW??

 

Jon

[Bernard Lamb]

Just a point in the back of my mind.

I do not know what wagons were used but I have seen the odd photo and heard various tales of big naval guns being taken from Elswick up to Redesdale for tests.

Any one any know the full story?

Bernard

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Bernard

 

There are artillery ranges at Otterburn. Not to sure if the Elswick Ordnance Works had ranges there as well. 

 

They would have had to proof fire the barrels somewhere before they were fitted to their mounting. All ordnances are proof fired, this involves a charge twice the power of the maximum charge they would fire in action is loaded with a solid shot. The barrel is placed in a very heavy non recoiling mounting and fired. A second shot is fired, again twice the maximum charge. The barrel is then full inspected for any damage, or distortion. If Ok it is then issued to the customer.

[jamie92208]

Hi Bernard

 

There are artillery ranges at Otterburn. Not to sure if the Elswick Ordnance Works had ranges there as well. 

 

They would have had to proof fire the barrels somewhere before they were fitted to their mounting. All ordnances are proof fired, this involves a charge twice the power of the maximum charge they would fire in action is loaded with a solid shot. The barrel is placed in a very heavy non recoiling mounting and fired. A second shot is fired, again twice the maximum charge. The barrel is then full inspected for any damage, or distortion. If Ok it is then issued to the customer.

As far as I know the Otterburnm ranges were owned by the Elswick company and Armstrong's house is up there full of gadgetry powered by Hydraulics.   Vickers had their gun range just south of Ravenglass with their own sidings firing out to sea.

 

Jamie

[Fat Controller]

As far as I know the Otterburnm ranges were owned by the Elswick company and Armstrong's house is up there full of gadgetry powered by Hydraulics.   Vickers had their gun range just south of Ravenglass with their own sidings firing out to sea.

 

Jamie

I think Armstrong's range was slightly further west than Otterburn, centred around an old quarry, and was served by a branch off the line from Hexham to Morpeth. I recollect there being an article in Model Railway News (so that dates it!) suggesting it would make an interesting model. Apparently, it was used during WW2 to test tanks made at Elswick Road, and had various armoured recovery vehicles disguised as 'agricultural machinery.

The Vickers range was at Eskmeals, I believe.

Armstrong's house is a very strange place; in one respect very advanced, with its own micro-hydro-electric power station, and all sorts of hydraulically powered gadgets, yet in other ways full of souvenirs of the Empire, full-scale models of slaves and so on.

I wonder where Woolwich pointed its guns, Clive?

[PhilJ W]

I wonder where Woolwich pointed its guns, Clive?

All Woolwich guns were tested at Shoeburyness. They were carried on special wagons that were run onto one of two barges (named Gog and Magog) and taken downriver to a special landing stage at Shoeburyness. IIRC This ceased in the 1950's

[Fat Controller]

All Woolwich guns were tested at Shoeburyness. They were carried on special wagons that were run onto one of two barges (named Gog and Magog) and taken downriver to a special landing stage at Shoeburyness. IIRC This ceased in the 1950's

You mean they pointed them back at Kent?

[jamie92208]

You mean they pointed them back at Kent?

More likely at any passing ships from a certain country east of the Netherlands.

 

Jamie

[Clive Mortimore]

You mean they pointed them back at Kent?

No.

 

They shoot out on to Foulness Island. When firing some guns it has been known for the powers to be to inform the residents of coastal towns of north Kent to keep their windows open. Less chance of them shattering. Or so I am told.

 

We took our guns down there for a trail firing with some new ammunition. Despite being a gun fitter I was not allowed to have a snoop around. Would have loved to seen some of the old stuff that is reported to still be there.

[Fat Controller]

No.

 

They shoot out on to Foulness Island. When firing some guns it has been known for the powers to be to inform the residents of coastal towns of north Kent to keep their windows open. Less chance of them shattering. Or so I am told.

 

We took our guns down there for a trail firing with some new ammunition. Despite being a gun fitter I was not allowed to have a snoop around. Would have loved to seen some of the old stuff that is reported to still be there.

Back in the late 1960s/early 1970s, when Foulness was being proposed as an early 'Boris Island', the Proof and Experimental Establishment was going to be transferred to RAF Pembrey. They could have pointed their guns at Pendine, who'd have pointed their rockets back...

[PhilJ W]

They also shot out to sea. The area to the east was/is a no go area for shipping. Back in the 70's I had a friend who was master of a gravel dredger. He once strayed into the area and within about 15 minutes he found his vessel being boarded by the Royal Navy!

[Clive Mortimore]

All Woolwich guns were tested at Shoeburyness. They were carried on special wagons that were run onto one of two barges (named Gog and Magog) and taken downriver to a special landing stage at Shoeburyness. IIRC This ceased in the 1950's

 

Hi Phil

 

I knew Shoebury was proof range for the Royal Ordnance Factories but I did not know about Gog and Magog. http://www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2627.0

 

Hence no Gun Set wagons on the SECR or the LTSR.

Edited January 27, 2013 by Clive Mortimore

[Bernard Lamb]

No.

 

They shoot out on to Foulness Island. When firing some guns it has been known for the powers to be to inform the residents of coastal towns of north Kent to keep their windows open. Less chance of them shattering. Or so I am told.

 

We took our guns down there for a trail firing with some new ammunition. Despite being a gun fitter I was not allowed to have a snoop around. Would have loved to seen some of the old stuff that is reported to still be there.

 

Sorry for taking this thread in all directions but it would seem that several people do have an interest in big guns.

Thanks to all.

My father was in the RA and based at Shoeburyness in 1940 with 375 Coastal Battery.

A few years ago I visited Foulness.

It is open on a few Sunday afternoons in the summer months.

You can drive up to the church area and there is a museum about island life in the old school building.

You are under surveillance the whole time and get an extensive briefing at the gate house.

Interestinly some sat navs allow an hour for the briefing. Enter Southend - Foulness for example and see how long it allows for a nine mile ish trip.

You do not get a pass to hang round your neck. The pass is the size of a tea tray and is put in the windscreen of the car for long range identification of any anauthorized vehicle.

It is not often you see road signs stating "Give way to tanks".

Turn right just before the gate house and you can get down to the coast on the Shoeburyness Ranges crossing the railway just before the sea wall.

Bernard

[PhilJ W]

Any idea when the next 'open day' will be.

[Bernard Lamb]

Any idea when the next 'open day' will be.

 

 

http://www.wakeringheritage.org.uk/foulness_heritagecentre.html

 

Try this for a start.

Bernard

[PhilJ W]

Thank you Bernard

[jonhall]

The Dutch Railway museum is putting on a military railway exhibition with exhibits from all over Europe including the railgun from Larkhill

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britains-biggest-gun-aims-for-holland

 

Alas it wasn't obvious if t would be open then I was in Utrecht last week, as the exhibition dosn't start until today, and I already had a Interrail pass to make best use of, but I might try and get back there later in the year.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Spoorwegmuseum/status/316824271043301376?p=v

 

Jon

Edited March 30, 2013 by jonhall

[Invicta]

I lived in Whitstable for about 10 years, fairly close to the seafront, and got fairly used to my windows rattling when they were lobbing particularly heavy stuff around at Shoeburyness...

 

No.

 

They shoot out on to Foulness Island. When firing some guns it has been known for the powers to be to inform the residents of coastal towns of north Kent to keep their windows open. Less chance of them shattering. Or so I am told.

 

We took our guns down there for a trail firing with some new ammunition. Despite being a gun fitter I was not allowed to have a snoop around. Would have loved to seen some of the old stuff that is reported to still be there.

[jonhall]

Tonight's 'Monster Moves' on Channel 5 showed the Larkhill gun being moved to Utrecht, it looks like it was quite a good exhibition - shame I missed it.

 

The gun appears to now be at Fort Nelson, Portsmouth. http://blog.royalarmouries.org/

 

 

Jon

Edited September 27, 2013 by jonhall

[Beatty 139]

Hi

Just a question that has been at the back of my mind for a while, on the Lickey Hills just south of Birmingham used to be a Navy Gun proof testing ground, the Butts were a well know landmark next to the visitors center and were only 'tided' up a few years ago, but I am told you can find test shot in the ground.

 

The road to the test ground was via Rose Hill is steep and today the main A38 through Rubery that avoids it was a diversion built by Napoleonic prisons of war. it must have been some sight to see the big gun barrels being hauled up rose hill, I presume by traction engine.

 

The Railway element of this comes from the Halesowen Branch from and its notoriously light weight viaduct long restricted to MR class 2 goods tender engines and no bigger, Walter Somere in Halesowen and the Rose Gun Barrel works on the opposite side of Mucklows hill produced (and still did until the 1980's) some of the largest naval gun barrels in the world, both had private siding on the Halesowen Branch so does any one know if these traveled to Longbridge via the branch to then be road hauled to the proof testings site or would they travel via the main line either via Droitwich or Birmingham or even been road hauled all the way (over very difficult and hilly roads) if locos couldn't double head over Dowery Dell viaduct would they allow a loco and gun barrel?

 

I have read most published work on the Halesowen Railway and never read a reference to gun barrels being moved, but only found out recently what was going on up the Lickeys so I have kind of put one and one together with the manufacture and proof testing at either end of the branch.

 

Any ideas?

Edited September 28, 2013 by Beatty 139

[Alister_G]

By coincidence I was browsing through the disused-stations site this afternoon, having read this thread earlier today, and I came across this page http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/index6.shtml

 which details Rail mounted guns on the Elham Valley Railway.

[jamie92208]

Hi

Just a question that has been at the back of my mind for a while, on the Lickey Hills just south of Birmingham used to be a Navy Gun proof testing ground, the Butts were a well know landmark next to the visitors center and were only 'tided' up a few years ago, but I am told you can find test shot in the ground.

 

The road to the test ground was via Rose Hill is steep and today the main A38 through Rubery that avoids it was a diversion built by Napoleonic prisons of war. it must have been some sight to see the big gun barrels being hauled up rose hill, I presume by traction engine.

 

The Railway element of this comes from the Halesowen Branch from and its notoriously light weight viaduct long restricted to MR class 2 goods tender engines and no bigger, Walter Somere in Halesowen and the Rose Gun Barrel works on the opposite side of Mucklows hill produced (and still did until the 1980's) some of the largest naval gun barrels in the world, both had private siding on the Halesowen Branch so does any one know if these traveled to Longbridge via the branch to then be road hauled to the proof testings site or would they travel via the main line either via Droitwich or Birmingham or even been road hauled all the way (over very difficult and hilly roads) if locos couldn't double head over Dowery Dell viaduct would they allow a loco and gun barrel?

 

I have read most published work on the Halesowen Railway and never read a reference to gun barrels being moved, but only found out recently what was going on up the Lickeys so I have kind of put one and one together with the manufacture and proof testing at either end of the branch.

 

Any ideas?

There is a naval gun museum at Portsmouth, Pridy's Hard IIRC.   It might be worth while getting in touch.

 

Jamie

[Arthur]

Walter Somere in Halesowen and the Rose Gun Barrel works on the opposite side of Mucklows hill produced (and still did until the 1980's) some of the largest naval gun barrels in the world,

 

Are you sure that Walter Somers forged naval gun barrels? There is no mention of it in their official history. In both World Wars they were tasked, along with other work, with forging naval shells up to 15" diameter.