Modelling a traditional parcels train

[stovepipe]

So, pre-nationalisation the likelihood is that parcels van would have been attached to a passing passenger train. Detached on route and attached to something else going in the right direction. Correct?

 

 

Yes I think this is the case. Dedicated parcels trains became more common in British Railways days. I can recall an article in Modern Railways from the early 1960s, regarding passenger train delays on the Midland Mainline which were in part due to the amount of overtime that occurred whilst parcels were loaded and unloaded at each station. The outcome was to restrict the parcels carried to premium service items only, remarshall the parcels accommodation to the centre of the train, and run dedicated parcels services for the remaining traffic.

 

Model Rail had a 2-part article on Parcel Train formations around 2006 or 2007. If I can find them I'll post the issues numbers.

 

Edit: it was actually a three part series - I only have the first two, issues 110 and 115. It covers the BR era.

Edited August 15, 2015 by stovepipe

[Nearholmer]

Chaps

 

This is getting interesting; thank you.

 

The van to Calne, BTW, was almost certainly for sausages.

 

The few pre-nationalisation pictures that I have found of complete parcels trains are two different ones of a Paddington- Shrewsbury working, which seems to contain a hotch-potch of things, including a six wheeled milk tank, but all GWR vehicles, and an LMS one! which looks to be all LMS vehicles.

 

One thing I would debate is the contention that all post office parcels would have travelled in "Royal Mail" vehicles. Bagged mail was conveyed in all sorts of vehicles, in what we know as "parcels trains", and in ordinary passenger trains, either in attached vans, in the brake van, or in locked passenger compartments (the seat cushions were supposed to be turned over to stop them getting too grubby). I strongly suspect that the same applied to post office parcels that were too big to fit in a mail bag. I have watched post office traffic being loaded and unloaded many, many times, so this is eye witness testimony, if you will.

 

Kevin

[TheSignalEngineer]

Parcels trains were also used for a variety of positioning moves for passenger stock, particularly if there were unbalanced workings. Some also included a passenger vehicle to act as a 'staff taxi' outside normal passenger train hours.

 

In 1938 the West London to Shrewsbury working picked empty up milk tanks at Banbury for Dorrington. The Up working was used to recover two Slip Coaches from Banbury and Reading for return to Paddington.

[The Stationmaster]

Chaps

 

This is getting interesting; thank you.

 

The van to Calne, BTW, was almost certainly for sausages.

 

The few pre-nationalisation pictures that I have found of complete parcels trains are two different ones of a Paddington- Shrewsbury working, which seems to contain a hotch-potch of things, including a six wheeled milk tank, but all GWR vehicles, and an LMS one! which looks to be all LMS vehicles.

 

One thing I would debate is the contention that all post office parcels would have travelled in "Royal Mail" vehicles. Bagged mail was conveyed in all sorts of vehicles, in what we know as "parcels trains", and in ordinary passenger trains, either in attached vans, in the brake van, or in locked passenger compartments (the seat cushions were supposed to be turned over to stop them getting too grubby). I strongly suspect that the same applied to post office parcels that were too big to fit in a mail bag. I have watched post office traffic being loaded and unloaded many, many times, so this is eye witness testimony, if you will.

 

Kevin

Post Office mails came in two sorts - Letter Mail and Parcel Post and they were quite distinct from each other.  As far as I know Parcel Post was not conveyed in Royal Mail vehicles - they were strictly for Letter Mail although it is quite feasible that Parcel Post was conveyed in vans attached to trains carrying Royal Mail vehicles.  Letter Mail was handled by Postal staff at stations, Parcel Post was handled by railway staff and loaded to trains by them them and it was scheduled by railway personnel to meet GPO specifications for quantity  (I know that because at one time that was what I did).

 

On passenger trains you could obviously find Parcel Post and letter Mail loaded in the same brakevan area but it was still separate for handling purposes.  I'm fairly sure that some Letter Mail passed on 'parcels trains', especially at Christmas time, but normally it went by passenger train or Mail trains (which included Post office Controlled trains - some of which were passenger trains and one of which was a road lorry). 

[Nearholmer]

Ah, it begins to become clearer!

 

I found a brilliant Getty image of Christmas Mail being unloaded at kings cross station, from ordinary fitted goods vans, and it includes vast numbers of parcels of all sizes, plus bagged (letter?) Mail, which has been placed in distinct piles.

 

Also, an image showing GWR staff unloading parcels vans, probably just pre or post First World War (moustache an uniform dating!) and there is a batch of churns among all the parcels.

 

Finally, this image http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls891.htm . The tank wagon apparently ran Dorrington, Shrewsbury, Banbury, Woodford, Marylebone, and return.

 

Has anyone written pre-WW2 "parcels" up for Backtrack? If not, it would make a really helpful and interesting article.

 

Kevin

Edited August 15, 2015 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, it begins to become clearer!

 

I found a brilliant Getty image of Christmas Mail being unloaded at kings cross station, from ordinary fitted goods vans, and it includes vast numbers of parcels of all sizes, plus bagged (letter?) Mail, which has been placed in distinct piles.

 

Also, an image showing GWR staff unloading parcels vans, probably just pre or post First World War (moustache an uniform dating!) and there is a batch of churns among all the parcels.

 

Finally, this image http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls891.htm . The tank wagon apparently ran Dorrington, Shrewsbury, Banbury, Woodford, Marylebone, and return.

 

Has anyone written pre-WW2 "parcels" up for Backtrack? If not, it would make a really helpful and interesting article.

 

Kevin

If this is the Kings Cross pic on Getty (assuming the link works) then that is Parcel Post.  If it was Letter Mail it wouldn't have been left like that as the GPO staff would have loaded it directly to road vehicles (or the train if it was outwards traffic), and in any case they are Parcel Post bags which were different from Letter Mail bags.

 

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/90771080-christmas-mail-at-kings-cross-station-1-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=X7WJLa88Cweo9HktRLaNXoaD5PukrtRsHUH42YahzSVRXwt9N1zhx9C02EIqaZC56Q0%2FB9agLgcU4ImOrLeaM0p2tR26il7jtNTZK5afdF8%3D

[Nearholmer]

Stationmaster, Sir.

 

How can one distinguish between letter mail bags, and parcel mail bags? Is it size? The way they are secured? Or what?

 

It's probably a distinction too far for me, but fine-scalers will surely want to know.

 

Kevin

[The Stationmaster]

Stationmaster, Sir.

 

How can one distinguish between letter mail bags, and parcel mail bags? Is it size? The way they are secured? Or what?

 

It's probably a distinction too far for me, but fine-scalers will surely want to know.

 

Kevin

Simples - Parcel Post bags were larger and had a flat bottom  (and I can tell you from working on the Christmas Post many, many, years ago that they tended to be an awful lot heavier than Letter Mail bags).    However the other clue in the KX picture is even more telling - there's no way that Post Office staff would leave their Letter Mails trapped behind a mountain of railway parcels traffic (even in London)

[jwealleans]

Someone pointed out this fantastic Ben Brooksbank shot from 1948 on Hornby's website.

 

From the front, I reckon ex-NE D 171 van, next one no real clue, ex-LNWR bogie van, SR PMV, LNER 51' van, LMS 42' van and another teak van at the back.

 

Any advance on that and any ideas about that lovely second vehicle?

[62613]

Someone pointed out this fantastic Ben Brooksbank shot from 1948 on Hornby's website.

 

From the front, I reckon ex-NE D 171 van, next one no real clue, ex-LNWR bogie van, SR PMV, LNER 51' van, LMS 42' van and another teak van at the back.

 

Any advance on that and any ideas about that lovely second vehicle?

The second picture is even more interesting; who would ever run a highfit immediately behind the loco. on a passenger train? Also what looks like some sort of motor car van behind that.

 

At March, by the looks of things

Edited September 25, 2015 by 62613

[Michael Delamar]

Reading back through this thread, a bump as the new Bachmann PMV is out, also to include this shot.

 

Kemp Town Station, 1 Oct 1967 by Ian Nolan, on Flickr

[SRman]

Nice photo, Michael. What's with the big 'X'es all over the place ... well, on the two rail vehicles, anyway?

[The Stationmaster]

Nice photo, Michael. What's with the big 'X'es all over the place ... well, on the two rail vehicles, anyway?

Means they're internal use only and not to run in traffic I would suspect as the 'X' was used for that purpose elsewhere.

[Fat Controller]

Nice photo, Michael. What's with the big 'X'es all over the place ... well, on the two rail vehicles, anyway?

It's to emphasise that the vehicles are in Internal Use, and not allowed to move from the confines of the depot. You'll notice that the vehicle in the foreground has a number, without alphabetical prefix, starting in'0'- this is another way of indentifying such vehicles. The PMV seems to have become the yard office, judging by the sign and the steps with handrail.

[Nearholmer]

I've got a vague recollection that the main building at Kemp Town was let out to a firm that bottled or pickled things, hence need for an office in a van for the railway staff, and, possibly a van rented out to store jars of pickled things in. I will try to check later to see if my memory is ciorrect.

 

Kevin

 

Nope! It was Lewes Road station, the other side of the tunnel, that was a pickle factory.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Nearholmer

[Porcy Mane]

I've got a vague recollection that the main building at Kemp Town was let out to a firm that bottled or pickled things, hence need for an office in a van for the railway staff, and, possibly a van rented out to store jars of pickled things in. I will try to check later to see if my memory is ciorrect.

I suspect that van is being used as additional warehousing. It seems to be full of boxes of Barker & Dobson sweetie jars. I didn't realise Everton mints were that popular.

 

P

[Nearholmer]

Ah, your eyesight is better than mine; I was trying to work out what it said on the boxes!

 

Lots and lots of sweetie shops on front at Brighton.

 

K

[Michael Delamar]

What is the van on the right?

[Fat Controller]

What is the van on the right?

It's an LMS wartime design, also used (with a different underframe) by the LNER- Diagram 2103? This one was fitted from new; others were built with Morton unfitted gear and vac-fitted in the 1950s.

[Clive Mortimore]

What is the van on the right?

Hi Michael

 

LMS Dia D2103

 

edit...Brian must have posted while I was looking in me Essery LMS wagons book.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Clive Mortimore

[Michael Delamar]

Cheers gents

[Phil Bullock]

I've got a vague recollection that the main building at Kemp Town was let out to a firm that bottled or pickled things,

 

 

Wasn't that Manchester Picalilli?

 

Phil

 

 

[Michael Delamar]

55010 on the approach to Doncaster by chris, on Flickr

[Ray M]

55010 on the approach to Doncaster by chris, on Flickr

Talk about overkill.

[Nearholmer]

Crikey, MD!

 

Is that a regular working?

 

Rough date?

 

And, where is its nameplate?

 

Apologies if that is a lot of questions, but a photo like that invites them.

 

Kevin