cromptonnut Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Anyone bought one of these sets? https://modelrailwaysolutions.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=20_66_68_70&product_id=257 I understand I need a "base" set plus a "riser" set for each complete turn or additional 3 inches that I require,am I reading this right? These are R2 and R3, but there is an R3 and R4 available too if you need it. My thought is for a compact Minories based layout with storage facilities underneath the layout itself. As a modern Minories style layout most of the stock in the storage yard apart from one or two loco hauled rakes would be fixed DMU/EMU sets meaning uncoupling is not required, something that obviously may cause problems with access in such an underboard storage arrangement. Be interested to hear people's thoughts on them before I start looking too far into the design, finance and "permission from SWMBO" aspects. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngryMeerkat Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 I've been thinking about exactly the same thing for Hayling TMD, instead of a fiddle yard have a helix at each end allowing roundy operation as well as storage underneath the main board. So far I've not found a way to make it work for me due to space, but it is an excellent idea and use of space. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted December 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2012 If you are only having short trains, I can't see the benefit. Helix will take up more space than conventional fiddle yard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deev Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Agreed, a helix is a great idea, there are many examples of them on Youtube (like the one below). I've read a lot about them in Model Railroader and they all seem to agree that tighter than 20 inch radius is a no no. They reckon that a 20" curve adds 2% to the gradient. However, being that most UK layouts don't have trains 100 wagons long it may be possible to run tighter curves than this. What kind of rolling stock are you planning to us? If it's all wheel drive modern diesel then it'll be more possible than Lima steam. I reckon it's still worth lashing together a test track to see if you loaded locos will start or even pull a train up it before you build one. Also, £35 for a couple of bits of ply and some threaded rod seems steep, you could build several helices for this amount. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 My thought is for a compact Minories based layout with storage facilities underneath the layout itself. Shall we see who gets there first? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65984-london-terminus-along-the-minories-theme/ Only joking - Sometimes I'm so slow, I reckon mine will cross the finishing line around 2016... Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 My layout would be modern image with Bachmann or Heljan (mostly) modern locos with all wheel drive - and no 12 carriage expresses due to the lack of space overall so the helix itself shouldnt be a problem for trains to climb. One of the advantages of reusing the space underneath is that I only have a maximum of 14ft to play with, so the helix can go on the end and with R2/R3 use about 3ft of it leaving more length for the layout rather than 4ft platforms, 4ft scenic and 4ft fiddle yard. Lifeboatman, I'm currently working on an O gauge project and I have one Slaters wagon current on 2 and a half years construction so I'm not sure it's necessarily a race... I'll price up the "bits" v the kit, and weigh the time and potential for disaster v a 'ready made solution' and see which works out best... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete 75C Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 If you have a jigsaw and some 6mm ply, consider a DIY jobbie - I think there'd be more flexibility in being able to tailor the descent / ascent to your exact requirements, rather than being dictated to by a helix kit. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted December 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2012 My layout would be modern image with Bachmann or Heljan (mostly) modern locos with all wheel drive - and no 12 carriage expresses due to the lack of space overall so the helix itself shouldnt be a problem for trains to climb. One of the advantages of reusing the space underneath is that I only have a maximum of 14ft to play with, so the helix can go on the end and with R2/R3 use about 3ft of it leaving more length for the layout rather than 4ft platforms, 4ft scenic and 4ft fiddle yard. Lifeboatman, I'm currently working on an O gauge project and I have one Slaters wagon current on 2 and a half years construction so I'm not sure it's necessarily a race... I'll price up the "bits" v the kit, and weigh the time and potential for disaster v a 'ready made solution' and see which works out best... I share the concerns about helices with radii of less than R4. Really puts a strain on the traction. Accept the point about length if trains to be more than 4 car. But if you have 36" depth to play with, why not use a 180 deg curve and fiddle yard behind station? That uses only about 24" length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted December 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 30, 2012 How heavy is one turn of this helix product? If you need 3½ or 4½ turns, how heavy is that going to make the baseboard? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 Just some random ebaying gives me: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/A2-Stainless-Steel-Fully-Threaded-Rod-Threaded-Bar-M2-5-3-4-5-6-8mm-/160846812975?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&var=&hash=item257337972f 10 pack of 200m M5 threaded rod £8.99 - x2? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12-HEXAGON-HEX-FULL-NUTS-A2-STAINLESS-VARIOUS-QTYS-DIN-934-/110959259971?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&var=&hash=item19d5aff143 100 off M5 nuts £2.20 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-M12-STAINLESS-STEEL-THICK-WASHERS-A2-FORM-A-/110911256882?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&var=&hash=item19d2d37932 200 off M5 washers £2.20 So that's £22 for the fastenings, plus the wood - not sure how much that would work out as. Compared to https://modelrailwaysolutions.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=20_66_68_70&product_id=257 1 x R2/R3 base unit £34.99 2 x R2/R3 riser sets £34.99 That's £105 plus delivery which isn't specified at MRS. Clearly the "DIY" method should be considerably cheaper... but then you have 1) the hassle of getting to a wood yard, 2) buying the wood, 3) getting wood cut into 18" squares, 4) cutting it all to the same curve, 5) assembling the bits - which aren't predrilled or anything, so I have to factor all of that in too (although it shouldn't be difficult) - my estimation is perhaps "only" saving £40-£50 verses essentially putting together a "kit of bits" that someone else already has done the hard work and calculating for, I just have to figure out what slots where. I need to look at how much rise I actually need to get clearance/access for the lower level, it may well be that one base and one riser is sufficient which changes the fiscal dynamics a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 I share the concerns about helices with radii of less than R4. Really puts a strain on the traction. Accept the point about length if trains to be more than 4 car. But if you have 36" depth to play with, why not use a 180 deg curve and fiddle yard behind station? That uses only about 24" length. That's the problem, where the layout lives I can really only get away with 24 inch depth - although can get away with the helix area as a temporary attachment (it would block a doorway when attached to the layout) for 'playtimes' I couldn't leave it permanently attached, and it's not really possible to pull the layout out from the wall to get the 1ft depth for fiddle yard behind the 2ft scenic layout. You also have the problem of reaching over for uncoupling loco hauled services (although I accept there are other options such as Kadee's). It may be a possibility but definitely as a 'last resort' option. I note your comments re R2/R3 - with the way I have in mind, the inner R2 (tighter) curve would be the "down" to the yard, and the outer R3 curve would be the climb up to the layout - if it was the other way round then I think I'd be a bit more concerned regarding using a helix. An R3/R4 helix of 4 inches wider is also available from the above supplier, which may be a suitable alternative too (or a home-made equivalent). One turn of the MRS unit is 70mm or approx 3 inches, which is the sort of gap I would expect to achieve with my "home grown" version. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deev Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 It's be better to DIY it I reckon, you can tweak the design to suit then. Also those helix parts on the MRS website look like they are cut from MDF to me but it would be worth checking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Silver Sidelines Posted December 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 30, 2012 I have toyed with idea - but I use 36inch minimum radius (for close coupling etc) so the helix would have to be very big. Regards Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 Any idea how much the White Rose version is? Their website doesn't contain any pricing information for the helix's, and there's no email contact address. Just trying to get some comparisons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Cromptonnut, Delivery of the base helix and two risers comes in at £13.99 for delivery (6kg) or you can collect for free from their premises. I've been looking at buying their helix for a while now. I don't think that they're overly expensive considering. Hth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 Tase, are you referring to the White Rose helix, or the MRS one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tase Posted December 30, 2012 Share Posted December 30, 2012 Apologies, I should have mentioned that those prices are for the MRS ones only. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted December 30, 2012 Author Share Posted December 30, 2012 Ok, thanks. I'm currently downloading a free CAD program so I can draw up what I have in mind, which apparently I can send the file to a CNC routing company online and they will come back with a quote for cutting of the wood to my exact specifications. It'll be very interesting to see what their quote is in comparison to the above prices. Granted, it may not be as clean/neat a job overall but if it can be done for half the price then it may well be that others would like to follow a "DIY" method based on buying the other bits I listed earlier. This is quite neat - a large helix used at either end of the layout used as additional storage facilities, using DCC and positioning sensors, the trains automatically shuffle round the helix until it's their turn to go on the layout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffym Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 I have a White Rose helix using radius three curves feeding a high level fiddle yard. It was extremely easy to set up - I have 3 and a half turns to get good clearance over the low level tracks and the whole thing was set up and in use in about 6 hours. It wasnt cheap but I'm no carpenter and I wasnt confident enough to DIY.From memory the base kit giving 1.5 turns was £80 ish and then it was another £60 per extra full circle.Cant comment on P and P as I collected it in person. It is MDF and has been totally stable. Very few steam locos will easily climb the helix with my standard 7 coach/22 wagon train barring 9fs from both the major manufacturers and the Bachmann Ivatt tanks. Any twin bogie all wheel drive diesel will climb the helix easily. Hope this info helps you decide Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted December 31, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 31, 2012 Very few steam locos will easily climb the helix with my standard 7 coach/22 wagon train barring 9fs from both the major manufacturers and the Bachmann Ivatt tanks. Any twin bogie all wheel drive diesel will climb the helix easily. Hope this info helps you decide So that gives you more operating potential, where the train has to stop and add a pilot or a banker to get it up the steep hill. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 There are a number of self-assembly Helix kits now available, with all the trackbed ready made to fit. Examples include..... Proses helix system Noch helix system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted December 31, 2012 Author Share Posted December 31, 2012 Both are very nice, but considerably more than I wish to pay hence investigating more "budget" options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffym Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 So that gives you more operating potential, where the train has to stop and add a pilot or a banker to get it up the steep hill. Thats part of the fun for me. being a DC user I have to choose the right banker for the train loco so that goods trains especially dont end up piled up on the banker! i suspect that DCC might make this easier to avoid , but thats another topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Ok so I've had a quote back from the company of £75 plus VAT and delivery for 12 quarter pieces which I make three complete turns. Adding the fasteners etc as above is pretty much the same as the MRS set pricewise. I guess that it's probably less hassle to pay a little bit extra and stick with where someone else has already done the work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted January 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2013 How wide do you want/need the station to be? Original Minories was just 10". And how many fiddleyard tracks? Given that you live in a small flat, I think that you would find it easier to build the layout on one level and arrange it in such a way that it can all be packed into a piece of furniture (4 boards each 3'6" long). Perhaps you could post a plan of the room that the layout will be in? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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