East West rail, Bletchley to oxford line

[Mike Storey]

23 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

But one post hit it on the head. We need an integrated system, with through ticketing and co-ordinated timetables, so you can get on a bus in a rural area, transfer to a train, transfer back to a bus for the final leg and it all works seamlessly with connections that work properly etc.

But that goes against the philosophy in the UK of every man for himself and free enterprise.

It can work. In the "old" days there were bus connections to north Devon which were in the Southern Railway timetable. I think that actually lasted beyond nationalisation of the railways. I suspect that deregulation of buses did for it. There may be other examples.

Jonathan

 

An "integrated" system sounds logical, and indeed does seem to work in some countries, such as the Netherlands. But all our research (in later BR days admittedly) concluded that ANY change of mode, particularly two changes, during a journey, decreased demand exponentially. This was less true for London however. But it did indicate a major change in mindset was necessary to encourage people out of their cars. Compulsion in more recent years has proven far less effective than other inducements, such as the sheer extra costs of motoring (for the young, insurance, and for most, parking, and now fuel) in most European countries, and the ability to use improved public transport has allowed a continuity of travel, but reluctantly in many cases. Perceived cost is the key factor here.

 

The Cambridge Busway (the "biggest" in the World, at the time), was meant to be the low cost solution, as well being more flexible in its delivery. But the almost trebling of the initial construction cost (at around £180m in 2011, compared to an estimated c.£56m in 2004), as well as higher than forecast maintenance costs, pretty well decimated the anticipated cost/benefit calculation, and, surprise, surprise, a lack of council subsidy, has meant that the two dominant operators (Stagecoach and Whippet) have sought much longer distance feeders into what was meant to be a local resource, apart from some additional subsidy by the University. It also has a regrettable safety record (3 deaths in 8 years is not something that would have been hidden from national news on any railway). 

 

The lesson here, for the East-West Railway, is that it must generate sufficient income from its route, whether by farebox, or from additional freight, to be viable for future upgrades, and to be viable as a through route for other origins/destinations. Quite how that will work, given its "separate" status currently, within the national network, remains to be seen. Will it be sold off, like HS1, or will it be absorbed with a lifetime payment to its parent company? If the track access charges are too high (to repay any such deal), will operators be able to afford to use it? This has been true with, for example, the new LGV Sud-Ouest to Bordeaux. It will take a government willing to underwrite, or write off, the capital costs, to see that through. I am not sure we have that government right now.

 

[stivesnick]

3 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

The lesson here, for the East-West Railway, is that it must generate sufficient income from its route, whether by farebox, or from additional freight, to be viable for future upgrades, and to be viable as a through route for other origins/destinations. Quite how that will work, given its "separate" status currently, within the national network, remains to be seen.

 

Network Rail have just issued a document giving their response to East -West Rail. Some of their key recommendations to make the best use of the route, which by the way, they refer to as the East-West Mainline are:

 

• Electrification 
• Extend passenger services beyond the core Oxford to Cambridge section to Bristol/Cardiff/ Southampton in the west and Ipswich/Norwich/Peterborough in the east. (new west/north curve onto the ECML)
• Milton Keynes to Old Oak Common service 
• New east-north curve at Bletchley and more track between Bletchley and Milton Keynes for both passenger and freight connections.
• Freight potential for flows between Daventry and Southampton  and Felixstowe and Felixstowe to South Wales. 
• These elements can be done in stages but need to get key decisions right now on issues such as track around Cambridge, Bedford and Bletchley/MK to allow things to happen in the future. A lot will depend on how much capacity on the WCML is freed up by HS2.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Very interesting.

 

The Daventry - Southampton freight route must be an “open goal”.

 

The N-E curve at Bletchley and extra track to CMK very definitely needed to make things work properly, but there are some obstacles en-route that would cost a lot to deal with.

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/04/2022 at 20:51, stivesnick said:

 

Network Rail have just issued a document giving their response to East -West Rail. Some of their key recommendations to make the best use of the route, which by the way, they refer to as the East-West Mainline are:

 

• Electrification 
• Extend passenger services beyond the core Oxford to Cambridge section to Bristol/Cardiff/ Southampton in the west and Ipswich/Norwich/Peterborough in the east. (new west/north curve onto the ECML)
• Milton Keynes to Old Oak Common service 
• New east-north curve at Bletchley and more track between Bletchley and Milton Keynes for both passenger and freight connections.
• Freight potential for flows between Daventry and Southampton  and Felixstowe and Felixstowe to South Wales. 
• These elements can be done in stages but need to get key decisions right now on issues such as track around Cambridge, Bedford and Bletchley/MK to allow things to happen in the future. A lot will depend on how much capacity on the WCML is freed up by HS2.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

 

Fascinating - I wonder what happened to the chap who used to work for Regional Railways and was behind the proposal to run a Swindon - Peterborough service (albeit by. a somewhat more circuitous routes beyind the WCML and Bedford - does he now work for NR?

 

BTW it was included on my planning graph for Avonmouth - Didcot coal trains - including calling at Wantage Parkway (nee Road) - crikey that's 30 years ago.

[jamie92208]

I suspect that EWR will reply,  somthing along the followi g lines.

 

" We'll build any connections  you want as long as you pay us."

 

Jamie

[Mike Storey]

On 19/04/2022 at 21:51, stivesnick said:

 

Network Rail have just issued a document giving their response to East -West Rail. Some of their key recommendations to make the best use of the route, which by the way, they refer to as the East-West Mainline are:

 

• Electrification 
• Extend passenger services beyond the core Oxford to Cambridge section to Bristol/Cardiff/ Southampton in the west and Ipswich/Norwich/Peterborough in the east. (new west/north curve onto the ECML)
• Milton Keynes to Old Oak Common service 
• New east-north curve at Bletchley and more track between Bletchley and Milton Keynes for both passenger and freight connections.
• Freight potential for flows between Daventry and Southampton  and Felixstowe and Felixstowe to South Wales. 
• These elements can be done in stages but need to get key decisions right now on issues such as track around Cambridge, Bedford and Bletchley/MK to allow things to happen in the future. A lot will depend on how much capacity on the WCML is freed up by HS2.

 

Regards 

 

Nick 

 

 

 

Interesting that NR are commenting on potential services, and not, for example, the Rail Delivery Group. NR will not have to deliver those services, unless this already reflects their new role in "Great British Railways", but I thought consultation on that particular version of How to Run a Railway had only just begun?

 

[rodent279]

What is NR's role in the brave new GBR world? I thought infrastructure was the responsibility of GBR now?

[Mike Storey]

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

What is NR's role in the brave new GBR world? I thought infrastructure was the responsibility of GBR now?

 

GBR is not due to exist until the end of 2024.

 

[Nearholmer]

Back to early concrete bridges for a moment; I stumbled upon this, which some may find interesting.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homersfield_Bridge
 

Looking at the tracked in various places as I cycled back from Padbury the other day, things seem to be getting close to “track and top ballast” stage, and looking at the levels of catch-put chambers, I think a lot of ballast is going to be used …… many engineering trains soon, methinks.

[Davexoc]

Whaddon Road has reopened to traffic to/from Mursley. This is the view quickly grabbed from the car looking towards MK.

Parapets rebuilt and raised with anti-climb coping. Crash barrier, then wooden rail fencing, and then steel pallisade fencing here.

 

 

As with other sites nearby, the track bed is in, the landscaping is being finished, and the various compounds appear to be winding down....

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, Davexoc said:

Whaddon Road has reopened to traffic to/from Mursley. This is the view quickly grabbed from the car looking towards MK.

Parapets rebuilt and raised with anti-climb coping. Crash barrier, then wooden rail fencing, and then steel pallisade fencing here.

 

 

As with other sites nearby, the track bed is in, the landscaping is being finished, and the various compounds appear to be winding down....

 

The cycling route my friend downloaded for us on bank holiday Monday tried to take us across there. It looked pretty complete but was fenced off.

She likes to follow her sat nav & gets a little frustrated when we can't. I am happier to make up the route as I go.

[Ray H]

11 hours ago, Davexoc said:

Whaddon Road has reopened to traffic to/from Mursley. This is the view quickly grabbed from the car looking towards MK.

 

Thanks for that update. I used to use that route on a Friday afternoon but deviated via Newton Longville whilst Whaddon Road was closed. The last time I looked at the Roadworks website there was an inference that Whaddon Road would remain closed until the end of May for road re-surfacing (or similar).

 

Mention of Newton Longville reminds me that when crossing the bridge over the railway on the other Whaddon Road to the northwest of Newton Longville last Friday, I thought I caught a glimpse of something on the track bed that might just have been rails - there was definitely something rusty looking down there but I wasn't going to crane my head around to take a second look when doing 50mph in the car.

[Davexoc]

On 11/05/2022 at 09:01, Ray H said:

Mention of Newton Longville reminds me that when crossing the bridge over the railway on the other Whaddon Road to the northwest of Newton Longville last Friday, I thought I caught a glimpse of something on the track bed that might just have been rails - there was definitely something rusty looking down there but I wasn't going to crane my head around to take a second look when doing 50mph in the car.

 

Passing Whaddon Road - Mursley today, I'm pretty sure there are rails out this far now, and heading towards Swanbourne. Possibly the eastbound line, which would be down, or is it up? I'm saying down because every way onto the line in that direction will be accessible from London.

[Edwin_m]

9 hours ago, Davexoc said:

 

Passing Whaddon Road - Mursley today, I'm pretty sure there are rails out this far now, and heading towards Swanbourne. Possibly the eastbound line, which would be down, or is it up? I'm saying down because every way onto the line in that direction will be accessible from London.

Down is towards Bletchley.  This was previously Up, presumably because the line was originally built as a branch from Bletchley to Oxford so the LNWR's trains from London would use it in that direction.  So it's a rare example of Up and Down being reversed, which wouldn't have caused any of the usual problems because in most respects it's a totally new line.  

 

On the tracklaying question, how are the rails positioned with no tracks to bring them in on?  Does some suitable off-road vehicle have to drag a long string of rail along the ballast?     

[Tony Teague]

2 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Down is towards Bletchley.  This was previously Up, presumably because the line was originally built as a branch from Bletchley to Oxford so the LNWR's trains from London would use it in that direction.  So it's a rare example of Up and Down being reversed, which wouldn't have caused any of the usual problems because in most respects it's a totally new line.  

 

On the tracklaying question, how are the rails positioned with no tracks to bring them in on?  Does some suitable off-road vehicle have to drag a long string of rail along the ballast?     

 

If tracks are in place they would presumably have come from the flyover end which certianly has track on it, indeed there are several trains per week scheduled to use a location called "Bletchley Summit of Flyover" e'g. tomorrow: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:BLTCSOF/2022-05-18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

 

[Edwin_m]

2 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

If tracks are in place they would presumably have come from the flyover end which certianly has track on it, indeed there are several trains per week scheduled to use a location called "Bletchley Summit of Flyover" e'g. tomorrow: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:BLTCSOF/2022-05-18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Indeed so, but my point is about how the rails got from the end of the existing track to where they are needed.  For a normal renewal a rail train will drop rails at the trackside, and I believe this is done by anchoring one end of the rail and slowly drawing the train away so the rail comes off (I think it sits on rollers on the train).  But that can only be done if there is a track there already.  

[corneliuslundie]

Have a look at the Werrington diveunder thread where there are some very good photos of the equipment used to lay the sleepers and then rails.

Jonathan

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

Have a look at the Werrington diveunder thread where there are some very good photos of the equipment used to lay the sleepers and then rails.

Jonathan

There's is also a link to a video of the tracklaying machine in action, which was used for the up line, the down line was then constructed separately.

Edited May 17, 2022 by melmerby

[melmerby]

 

[Rugd1022]

Last week I was on 6Y23, the long welded rail train and went down as far as the current trackwork alloys, stopping directly under Whaddon Road bridge. Despite being not that far from cosmopolitan Bletchley, it felt like the middle of nowhere!

[Pannier Tank]

15 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Last week I was on 6Y23, the long welded rail train and went down as far as the current trackwork alloys, stopping directly under Whaddon Road bridge. Despite being not that far from cosmopolitan Bletchley, it felt like the middle of nowhere!

 

Where Swanbourne Sidings used to be.

[Davexoc]

1 hour ago, Rugd1022 said:

Last week I was on 6Y23, the long welded rail train and went down as far as the current trackwork alloys, stopping directly under Whaddon Road bridge. Despite being not that far from cosmopolitan Bletchley, it felt like the middle of nowhere!

 

Never heard Bletchley described as cosmopolitan before....

 

1 hour ago, Pannier Tank said:

 

Where Swanbourne Sidings used to be.

 

Or is that the Mursley Whaddon Road bridge west of the old sidings?

[John Isherwood]

7 minutes ago, Davexoc said:

Never heard Bletchley described as cosmopolitan before .....

 

Bletchley in ExpoEM days was best described as Post-apocalyptic!!

 

CJI.

[Mike Storey]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Bletchley in ExpoEM days was best described as Post-apocalyptic!!

 

CJI.

 

True. I am sure several of the taxi journeys I made from there, many years ago, were driven by Zombies.

 

[Nearholmer]

Quite different these days. Some of it is post post-apocalyptic, but unfortunately other bits are post, post, post-apocalyptic.