East West rail, Bletchley to oxford line

[KingEdwardII]

9 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

If only railways could do the same.

I think that some railways have done this - for example the improvements of services on the GWR main line have made commuting from places like Didcot practical and have encouraged the development of a major new town there. The electrification of the line to Cambridge did much the same for the Cambridge area. Something similar has happened on the Borders Railway in Scotland, with ridership way ahead of forecast.

 

East West rail will do the same if it gets completed. Journeys any way along that route by train are slow and poor today. Make them fast and frequent and people will use them. Its all about convenience.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Ray H]

And don't get me started on having full time traffic lights on roundabouts . . .  (a seemingly favourite in Milton Keynes) which could in a rather strange way actually encourage motorists to transfer the the EW rail route.

 

Apologies for going off topic.

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think it is generally accepted that a new road simply generates traffic to fill it.

If only railways could do the same.

J

When the M42 was built around the South East of Birmingham, it remained mainly disused for several years.

I was using it as a commute for a while to get to the M6, it was great.

A couple of years later I started using it again and it was jammed with traffic,

It was if the secret had been let out of the bag.

[KingEdwardII]

10 minutes ago, Ray H said:

full time traffic lights on roundabouts

The ultimate sign of failure. A landmark of a junction that should never have been a roundabout in the first place.

[KingEdwardII]

Thinking about it further - other signs of success on the railways. The station at University in Birmingham.

 

Didn't even exist until 1978. Has grown & grown since, helped by the electrification of the cross city line. Now so important that a percentage of the long distance trains along that route now stop there as well (e.g. Cardiff - Nottingham). 

 

Now so busy (~ 4M passengers per year) that it is undergoing a major upgrade to deal with the volume of traffic. Loud applause from me.

 

We need more of this kind of vision.

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Siberian Snooper]

43 minutes ago, Ray H said:

And don't get me started on having full time traffic lights on roundabouts . . . 

 

 

When the lights fail, the traffic always flows better, at least it does in Plymouth.

[Welly]

4 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Well, I think that road engineers in the UK have an unhealthy obsession with roundabouts. Roundabouts are just about the worst way to build a junction between major roads and yet that is what we get, time and again.

I recall travelling on the A43 between the M1 and the M40 during 2005, a nice stretch of dual carriageway. When I next travelled on that road in 2017, there were a million roundabouts on that stretch to connect with minor country lanes! Ugh!

[exet1095]

2 hours ago, Welly said:

I recall travelling on the A43 between the M1 and the M40 during 2005, a nice stretch of dual carriageway. When I next travelled on that road in 2017, there were a million roundabouts on that stretch to connect with minor country lanes! Ugh!

I think you’re suffering from false memory syndrome. Apart from the changes at the M40 junction end, the road remains pretty much as built. The roundabouts around Brackley are annoying, but are not newer than the rest of the road. 
 

Paul

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Thinking about it further - other signs of success on the railways. The station at University in Birmingham.

 

Yours,  Mike.

Whitlocks End on the North Warwickshire line.

Formerly a sleepy halt with little passenger use.

The train service has improved considerably and provision of a car park caused an explosion in use, such that the car park has been extended twice and pre covid it was usually pretty full

You can also get trains to more destinations after the services north and south of Snow Hill were joined.

 

I'm thinking of visiting the SVR and I could drive to Whitlocks End, park for free and get a direct train to Kidderminster.

 

How about Snow Hill?

Closed completely in 1972, a new station was opened 15 years later and now has approaching 6million passengers per year (pre covid)

Edited July 24, 2022 by melmerby

[Northmoor]

22 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I think it is generally accepted that a new road simply generates traffic to fill it.

If only railways could do the same.

J

There is hardly a railway or station reopening in the UK since 1980 that hasn't exceeded predictions, often by great extent.  I seem to remember the Bathgate reopening in 1986 met its predicted annual traffic after about 3 months; that is far from unusual.  Going back further (50 years now), Bristol Parkway must be, pound for pound, the most successful new station opened by British Rail.

The only ones I can immediately think of which didn't meet predicted levels is Cardiff's City line - but which is still considered a success - and the Swanline stations between Bridgend and Swansea.  The point is, traffic is very hard to predict because most people don't know they'll use something that doesn't exist, until it does.  When mobile phones were the size of housebricks and cost £5000, hardly anyone thought they'd ever need one......

 

[RJS1977]

On 23/07/2022 at 08:13, KingEdwardII said:

As for COP targets, government ministers like to talk big, but their actions when they have to spend money are the real touchstone. No electrification for E-W rail. Curtailed electrification schemes on the main lines. Those speak volumes.

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

No point in electrifying until reliable generating capacity is sorted out. I fear that in future years we will struggle fail to meet current levels of demand for electricity, never mind provide all the electricity needed for electric cars, heat pumps, and new electrification schemes.

[Davexoc]

11 hours ago, melmerby said:

When the M42 was built around the South East of Birmingham, it remained mainly disused for several years.

I was using it as a commute for a while to get to the M6, it was great.

A couple of years later I started using it again and it was jammed with traffic,

It was if the secret had been let out of the bag.

 

Same thing happened when the A50 was upgraded, great to start with, soon went downhill....

 

11 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

The ultimate sign of failure. A landmark of a junction that should never have been a roundabout in the first place.

 

The planners of MK didn't forsee the roundabouts being permanent, merely a starting point while traffic flows were low. I think the only roundabout that has actually been replaced by regular lights is the one near the station/Argos.

And the original concept for MK was an overhead rapid transit system on the wide central reservations of the gridroads around the centre. Now if that was to be delivered instead of more multi-storey car parks.....

[phil-b259]

11 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

The ultimate sign of failure. A landmark of a junction that should never have been a roundabout in the first place.

 

Yet plenty of road schemes are being drawn up / constructed with such things being installed from the outset!

 

The 'signalised roundabout' followed by 'signalised hamburger roundabout' seem to be about the only thing the designers (and Treasury Bean counters) will allow to be built (instead of a bog standard signalised junction or one with some grade separation).

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, exet1095 said:

I think you’re suffering from false memory syndrome. Apart from the changes at the M40 junction end, the road remains pretty much as built. The roundabouts around Brackley are annoying, but are not newer than the rest of the road. 
 

Paul

 

For a LONG time the A43 was mostly single carriageway - the Brackley and Towcester by-passes being short bits of 1980s (or earlier) dual carriageway bliss amongst it.

 

In the 1990s the new road from Towcester to the newly created junction 15A on the M1 was built - and that was it!

 

The catalyst for the remaining bits being dualled was the threat by the FIA that they would dump the Silverstone British GP unless the Government got their finger out and upgraded the A43 properly.

 

As is usually the case, later upgrades come at a higher standard so the mid 2000s upgrade saw grade separated junctions being built  - but the earlier sections with their roundabouts were left untouched.

 

Regrettably this is another case of a complete lack of UK strategic thinking - allied to the decision to build our motorway network as a 'free to use' setup.

 

In France the A43 would have been a complete new build toll motorway (and thus not subject to HM Treasurys constant penny pinching or lack of long term vision) - no interchanges with country lanes, intermediate roundabouts with sharp changes of direction or farmers field accesses along it.

Edited July 24, 2022 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

When the M42 was built around the South East of Birmingham, it remained mainly disused for several years.

I was using it as a commute for a while to get to the M6, it was great.

A couple of years later I started using it again and it was jammed with traffic,

It was if the secret had been let out of the bag.

 

Thats largely because it wasn't very useful for long distance traffic at the time.

 

When it got as far as Tamworth - and particularly after the cheapo 1990s extension as the A42 to the M1 got bolted on it became the key artery for SW - NE traffic.

 

Similarly the M25 wasn't particularly busy when it only ran between junctions 11 and 13 or 7 and 5. Once they got linked up on the other hand....

Edited July 24, 2022 by phil-b259

[lmsforever]

The A34 is an awful road to use listening today to Oxford radio many parts had five to seven mile tailbacks plus all around the city it was at a standstill so road is not the answer.I do not understand the apparent deathwish for Bletchley  Bedford its a useful route especially it now goes to the mainline station, is the dead hand of the DFT in action here?  I dispair that government will ever understand the peoples needs  all my life I have watched polaticians carry on ignoring the peoples needs they are full of good intentions at elections then forget everything especially with transport. In Aylesbury we are gaining a new road thanks to HS2 it will actually help local drivers and give villagers in Stoke Manderville a peacfull life but the bad thing is new housing springing up alongside it that will just cause jams.HS2 is making good progress all around Aylesbury. But many of us want to go to MK for pleasure or work its not a good journey in mornings or evenings but a rail link thats good but the DFT are against it costs wont be high from Aylesbury to Calvert jctn but I can see attempts to raise costs with rubbish we do not need .Basicaly government interference has made our country a total mess were transport is concerned those who make decisions take no notice of the peoples needs or views .I dont think this will change and am glad I dont need to travel distances anymore .Rant over

[phil-b259]

On 23/07/2022 at 08:13, KingEdwardII said:

I certainly do advocate trunk road improvements (and rail improvements also). The lessons learned are that trunk road improvements can and do pay back handsomely. The A34 today, for example, is way better than what went before. The Newbury bypass and M4 junction improvement transformed the route. The CPRE is unfortunately a biased observer here and not to be trusted in evaluating road improvements - their judgements on the Newbury bypass are frankly laughable and divorced from reality. The same is true of the A14, the M25 and a host of other major road schemes. 

 

I have no objections to improvements in public transport - I'm an advocate for them. However, it is important to address the reality that up to 90% of journeys in the UK are by road (depending how you measure). I see no value in having bad roads any more than in having poor railway infrastructure.

 

I think that non-London projects for both road and for rail are given less priority. It is annoying that EWR is now being threatened - for whatever reason. The slow progress on the trans-Pennine routes is equally annoying. That applies to rail but also to roads - I find it utterly astonishing that there is only a single motorway across the Pennines, given the large populations either side that need connecting.

 

As for COP targets, government ministers like to talk big, but their actions when they have to spend money are the real touchstone. No electrification for E-W rail. Curtailed electrification schemes on the main lines. Those speak volumes.

 

Yours,  Mike.

 

Transformed is not quite how I would put it! Done the minimum possible is a better description.

 

Yes the traffic no longer goes through Newbury - but the by-pass is very much an example of bad design! Junctions with exceptional short acceleration and deceleration lanes but the mainline very busy with HGVs makes it hard to merge / leave safely. The gradients are steep yet there are no crawler lanes!

 

Yes I know there was a requirement to minimise landtake and visual intrusion to get the thing built but the basic fact is there was scope to do much better without increasing the road footprint significantly. What about cut and cover tunnels, retaining walls, green bridges etc...

 

Yes they cost money but you get road fit to be part of a proper strategic network. In fact if you look at the road network strategically, the A27*, A34*, A43*, A14*, A42, A50, A449/A40 corridors should ALL BE MOTORWAYS - not be littered with footpaths crossing them, field accesses, dogy lay-bys, farmers fields accessed from them, short / non existent acceleration / deceleration lanes.

 

*These roads forming a useful box round the south east intercepting traffic further out from the SE than currently happens due their build quality compared to our motorways.

 

I maintain that had the UK adopted the 'motorways are tolled' philosophy of the French then we would have a much better network as:-

 

(1) If all motorways we tolled from the start then the UK public would have accepted them as a fact of life meaning more could be built.

(2) Tolled motorways evens up the balance a little bit between rail and road without penalising those living in rural areas that have no railway to make use of. Raising fuel tax by contrast hits rural areas harder than areas where rail is a viable transport option.

(3) It wouldn't be wholly reliant on HM Treasury to fund it and funding to be pulled for party political reasons

 

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by phil-b259

[lmsforever]

The A34 during the day is a terrible road to use  but of an early evening trip is okay ,the reason is that the traffic that needs to use it has increased rapidly every year since it was built to  a budget that was toned down to the minimum. This can be seen by the junction layouts and the lack of three lanes plus the layout shows that it was looked on as a series of bypasses not a major route . Every year the numbers of HGV,s increase and seem to be nose to tail in the inside lane especially after a ferry has docked  from France  also add in summer only traffic and many local travellers although if there is an alternative you dont see them.The answer is two extra lanes each way and a new connection to the M3  but it costs a fortune will cause great upset to many locals and the fashion now of adding new towns every ten miles on new roads.In Aylesbury we are swamped with new houses most are bought by ex Londoners who have no interest in our town buy the new house then sell it and move even further away from London. ,I used this road every day for fifteen years and saw the developments take place and the delays caused by accidents. When you have a schedule of deliveries to make  it was not pleaseant .Didcot is a fine example of unfettered development again an awful place to drive round. It is good to see the laying of track plus the new stations but I have an awful feeling that Bletchley will be the limit of rebuilding due to lack of money and blocking by the DFT. This organisation is a badly run group that is only bound by ,can we save money to hell with the people. I am amazed that EWR is actually being built having watched prevarication ,lying, dismisal of sound ideas, and hoping everyone will go a way. But they were defeated and the project is well on the way but the DFT are starting to get further extensions stopped.  The line is a fine example of keep pushing  and you will grind the b.......s down .I write this as someone who has  had to use this road before the new bits were built and only go on  it if I have to. 

[Arun Sharma]

12 hours ago, lmsforever said:

The A34 during the day is a terrible road to use  but of an early evening trip is okay ,the reason is that the traffic that needs to use it has increased rapidly every year since it was built to  a budget that was toned down to the minimum. This can be seen by the junction layouts and the lack of three lanes plus the layout shows that it was looked on as a series of bypasses not a major route . Every year the numbers of HGV,s increase and seem to be nose to tail in the inside lane especially after a ferry has docked  from France  also add in summer only traffic and many local travellers although if there is an alternative you dont see them.The answer is two extra lanes each way and a new connection to the M3  but it costs a fortune will cause great upset to many locals and the fashion now of adding new towns every ten miles on new roads.In Aylesbury we are swamped with new houses most are bought by ex Londoners who have no interest in our town buy the new house then sell it and move even further away from London. ,I used this road every day for fifteen years and saw the developments take place and the delays caused by accidents. When you have a schedule of deliveries to make  it was not pleaseant .Didcot is a fine example of unfettered development again an awful place to drive round. It is good to see the laying of track plus the new stations but I have an awful feeling that Bletchley will be the limit of rebuilding due to lack of money and blocking by the DFT. This organisation is a badly run group that is only bound by ,can we save money to hell with the people. I am amazed that EWR is actually being built having watched prevarication ,lying, dismisal of sound ideas, and hoping everyone will go a way. But they were defeated and the project is well on the way but the DFT are starting to get further extensions stopped.  The line is a fine example of keep pushing  and you will grind the b.......s down .I write this as someone who has  had to use this road before the new bits were built and only go on  it if I have to. 

As someone who lives on the old A34 in Abingdon and uses the dual carriageway A34 between M3, M4 and M40 regularly, there is no doubt in my mind that, as things stand, one day a new M34 [or perhaps A34[M]] will have to be built linking Southampton with the M40 somwhere around J9/10. 

The present A34 has effectively become an interim road replacement for the electric spine that Network Rail wanted linking Southampton with the Midlands and North.  Being a fairly new road, the present A34 has not yet been subject to prolonged [complete] closures for road works and where required, these have usually been possible overnight but that happy state of affairs cannot continue ad infinitum.

The plans to close RAF Abingdon [aka Dalton Barracks], build a new reservoir and then a few thousand new homes to the west of Abingdon will, I suspect, overwhelm the capacity of the present A34. The limiter will be [as amply demonstrated in Abingdon in Summer 2007, on the Oxford by-pass segment of the A34 and the railway line North of Didcot almost annually] that this land is all Thames flood plain. 

I would like to see some active encouragement given by the Govt to getting freight off roads and onto rail. The electric spine which includes linking the orbital E-W railway [because it is really an outer circle rail version of the M25 linking the radial West and North routes out of London] is essential in its entirity and thus needs to be electrified. That also has the benefit of retaining expertise in electrification in the UK which we lose if we only electrify a few bits of line every 30 years or so.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Arun Sharma
addnl info

[corneliuslundie]

You hint at what needs to be a major government policy over the next few years - but won't be - namely getting modal shift from road to rail. Not just for freight but also for passengers. With a good number of youngsters not having learned to drive during Covid there is an opportunity to change attitudes. But it needs both investment and co-ordination - not like here in Newtown where money was spent to make it possible for buses to serve the railway station but the facilities have never been used; or Cardiff where the bus station opposite the station was demolished and sold to a developer. Then the council realised it needed a bus station! Oh, dear!

And no government is going to pursue what they will perceive as a vote loser, or want to actually spend money on co-ordination between transport modes.

In essence the upgrading of road mentioned frequently above should be made unnecessary (except of course where now "towns" are being built which will also need other investment.

Jonathan

[KingEdwardII]

14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

A27*, A34*, A43*, A14*, A42, A50, A449/A40 corridors should ALL BE MOTORWAYS

Yes, I can agree with that. I'm OK with tolled motorways too - M6 toll is just great.

 

Perhaps one idea that's been missed is the idea of building combined Motorway/Railway routes as a way of minimising impact of major routes.

 

The other idea is that ALL new lines should be built to express standards (140mph say) to permit effective long distance transport. This applies in spades to EWR - envisage routes like Norwich to Bristol/Cardiff by express. Today, people would have to go through London, which is still a pain even with the Elizabeth line. Why not services like Norwich - Cambridge - Bedford - Bletchley/MK - Oxford - Swindon - Bath - Bristol?

 

Yours,  Mike.

[Mike_Walker]

1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

Yes, I can agree with that. I'm OK with tolled motorways too - M6 toll is just great.

 

Perhaps one idea that's been missed is the idea of building combined Motorway/Railway routes as a way of minimising impact of major routes.

 

The other idea is that ALL new lines should be built to express standards (140mph say) to permit effective long distance transport. This applies in spades to EWR - envisage routes like Norwich to Bristol/Cardiff by express. Today, people would have to go through London, which is still a pain even with the Elizabeth line. Why not services like Norwich - Cambridge - Bedford - Bletchley/MK - Oxford - Swindon - Bath - Bristol?

 

Yours,  Mike.

But would there be a demand for such journeys to make them viable?  I doubt it.  You'd need more than a handful a day.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Mike_Walker
Spelling correction!

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

Yes, I can agree with that. I'm OK with tolled motorways too - M6 toll is just great.

 

 

Yours,  Mike.

Mainly because most HGVs won't use it and would rather get stuck in the congestion through the Birmingham area.

Surely in many cases the charge (£10 - £12.90 depending on time*) for HGVs is more than compensated for by the time saving.

Logistic services keep telling us time is money!

 

*Also various savers/season tickets available

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Mainly because most HGVs won't use it and would rather get stuck in the congestion through the Birmingham area.

Surely in many cases the charge (£10 - £12.90 depending on time*) for HGVs is more than compensated for by the time saving.

Logistic services keep telling us time is money!

 

*Also various savers/season tickets available

 

There has been a noticeable increase in the number of HGV's using the route, over the last couple of years.

Particularly so at peak times on the M6  via Brum.

Still low numbers, but much more than you saw in past years.

 

 

.

[phil-b259]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Mainly because most HGVs won't use it and would rather get stuck in the congestion through the Birmingham area.

Surely in many cases the charge (£10 - £12.90 depending on time*) for HGVs is more than compensated for by the time saving.

Logistic services keep telling us time is money!

 

*Also various savers/season tickets available

 

The M6 toll is a problem because ever since the UK started building motorways we have been conditioned to believe they should be free to use*. As such the mentality amongst many drivers (and particularly freight) is that they will shun the route and go through Birmingham.

 

You don't get this attitude in France - but thats precisely because generations have grown up expecting the use of their motorways to require a toll.

 

Also although 'time is money' in logistics - they typical business model has been to employ cheap EU drivers on a 'per mile' basis - oif they get stuck in traffic jams it cost the logistics company nothing while the M6 toll route is longer and involves a toll.

 

For their part the owners of the M6 Toll have been losing money hand over fist since the thing opened - HGVs cause far more damage to the road surface than cars so it makes sense for them to discourage HGV use.

 

What should have been done with the M6 Toll route is build it as the bog standard M6 without tolls (and build a proper connection onto the M54)  - then renumber the M6 into Birmingham and slap a toll on that** to discourage through traffic.

 

 

* with the exception of major bridges / tunnels

 

** Junctions 4-8. Plus renumber the bit between 8 and 11 as the M5 (which would have to stay toll free unless a western orbital route was ever built)