Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, charlielynch said:

I’m afraid I can’t help myself but contribute to a particular discussion….

 

History, as one commentator succinctly pointed out, is not static but is under a process of continual revision as new interpretations of the past are developed, and which in turn will be shaped by the ‘present’ in which the historian is working. This is how history works. The past, by contrast, does not change - things either did or did not happen, or we do or do not know about them. Following from this, the key issue is that the work of discovering, narrating and communicating the past is done to a high academic standard.

 

Regarding the ‘political correctness’ or otherwise of locomotive names given in the past, I suggest we should understand these as products of the cultural conditions of the time. They might also show us how tastes and expectations can change. For example, it was mentioned that in the 1930s, LMS Jubilee locomotives were named after territories in the British Empire. I suggest that by the 1960s this would have been unthinkable due to the retreat of empire and changing public attitudes towards imperialism. Yes, ‘woke’ over fifty years ago.  

 

The naming of locomotives after fox hunts is another fairly obvious example. I suggest that in the 1920s and 30s this was uncontentious and might have had positive effects on public relations (we are dealing with the history of PR here) through suggesting the identities of regional places served by the railway company. Majority public attitudes to fox hunting have changed, perhaps decades ago. It would now seem bizarre for a business to be publicly identified with fox hunts if it could possibly be avoided.

 

More complex is the issue of whether present day moral standards can be applied to personalities in the past. I would suggest that outwith contemporary history (a moveable feast, but presently understood as c.1945-2010) we cannot. However, what does remain is the question about how ‘complex’ individuals in the past could or should be memorialised - a live debate today.  

 

Were we lucky enough to be in the business of naming locomotives today, perhaps we could look to the example of the Great Northern Railway (Ireland). The GNR (I) was bisected by the Irish Border in 1922 and thereafter operated in two rival polities with violently opposing ideas about history and identity. The solution? Naming engines after mountains, rivers and counties. The GNR (I)’s wonderful 4-4-0s, of which two survivors are remarkably in operation today, rejoiced in names such as Slieve Gullion, Boyne, and Lagan. The result - short and evocative names which everyone could claim, and no one could easily argue with. 

 

Charlie

Thanks Charlie,

 

A most-enlightened post. 

 

Your point about how 'complex' individuals should be memorialised is, as you say, a live debate. 

 

Certainly 'great Britons' have been celebrated in the naming of locomotives for generations (though why 70047 wasn't named FLORENCE NIGHTINGALE remains a mystery). Those 'heroes' whose names were carried by the Battle of Britain Class certainly (in my view) deserved the recognition, though if Britain had lost the Battle of Britain it would never have happened. 

 

I mentioned the Lord Nelsons, but some of the ranks would not find favour for names today (for obvious reasons - links to slavery). 

 

As for Waterloo Station - named to celebrate a final victory over Napoleon; it might be apocryphal, but I recall reading in 1965 (shortly after Churchill's death) that the great man had planned his own funeral meticulously some years before. In the plans was an insistence that his funeral train depart from Waterloo (rather than the more logical for Oxfordshire, Paddington?) in case De Gaulle attended the event (I don't think he did). I'd rather like the tale to be true. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

I've just posted the following shot (among others) in the 'How realistic are your models' thread............

 

 

Should we try to 'copy' in model form the work of great prototype photographers such as Colin Walker or Michael Mensing? 

[Captain Kernow]

3 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Should we try to 'copy' in model form the work of great prototype photographers such as Colin Walker or Michael Mensing? 

I don't see why not, Tony. I often give the excuse for a high up view of my layouts that it was taken by Ben Ashworth, having climbed up a tall tree to get it (which he was apparently want to do).

 

[Captain Kernow]

Naming locomotives after race horses, parts of the British Empire or topographical features is one thing, but at least most of these names evoked some kind of emotional reaction, as opposed to the sterile, soulless corporate names we find on some more modern locos today.

 

How about 66005 'Maritime Intermodal One'

 

or

 

66433 'Carlisle Power Box'

 

or

 

66593, the incredibly awful '3MG Mersey Multimodal Gateway'

 

One real mouthful is 66718 'Peter, Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill of Imber in the County of Wiltshire'

 

What are these people thinking??

 

[MJI]

19 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Naming locomotives after race horses, parts of the British Empire or topographical features is one thing, but at least most of these names evoked some kind of emotional reaction, as opposed to the sterile, soulless corporate names we find on some more modern locos today.

 

How about 66005 'Maritime Intermodal One'

 

or

 

66433 'Carlisle Power Box'

 

or

 

66593, the incredibly awful '3MG Mersey Multimodal Gateway'

 

One real mouthful is 66718 'Peter, Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill of Imber in the County of Wiltshire'

 

What are these people thinking??

 

Of an empty village?

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

One real mouthful is 66718 'Peter, Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill of Imber in the County of Wiltshire'

 

What are these people thinking??

 

 

Or, for example, "The Green Howard, Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own Yorkshire Regiment"

 

Several LMS locomotives come close. 

 

56 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

As for Waterloo Station - named to celebrate a final victory over Napoleon

 

Surely Waterloo Station was so named on account of its proximity to Waterloo Bridge? The bridge, though, was named for the battle. Likewise the Gare d'Austerlitz, named for its proximity to the Pont d'Austerlitz and Quai d'Austerlitz, both named for Napoleon's famous victory.

[polybear]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I've just posted the following shot (among others) in the 'How realistic are your models' thread............

 

 

Should we try to 'copy' in model form the work of great prototype photographers such as Colin Walker or Michael Mensing? 

 

If it interests you/gives you pleasure in doing so then why not?

[t-b-g]

9 hours ago, polybear said:

 
The idea of a soldering iron?  Or the idea of a pink handle?

 

We didn't get as far as discussing which part of the idea her mum didn't like. I just received one of her best "No Dad!" put downs and backed off. 

[DenysW]

Summary Guidelines for Grandparents (based on personal experience):

 

-     You are not responsible for de-sludging grandkids unless (a) you volunteer or (b) you are the last childminder present (sub-set of (a))

-     You are not responsible for choosing the correct level of discipline that will convert the grandkids into responsible citizens from normal children. You are expected to follow your children's choices on this (!!!)

-     You are allowed/encouraged to let grandkids do things that would be 'naughty' in the absence of intensive 1:1 supervision.  I have not checked this with twins.

 

So: like parenthood, but with most of the difficult and slimy bits taken out. Very positive experience.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Or, for example, "The Green Howard, Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own Yorkshire Regiment"

 

Several LMS locomotives come close. 

 

 

Surely Waterloo Station was so named on account of its proximity to Waterloo Bridge? The bridge, though, was named for the battle. Likewise the Gare d'Austerlitz, named for its proximity to the Pont d'Austerlitz and Quai d'Austerlitz, both named for Napoleon's famous victory.

Good evening Stephen,

 

It could well have been, but the 'irony' would still have been there had De Gaulle attended Churchill's funeral.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.