Wright writes.....

[Keith Turbutt]

9 minutes ago, mullie said:

Did Jas have an East Anglian TT layout before he went S scale? I saw it at what could have been the first Mid Essex MRC exhibition in a small hall near Brentwood Station I think.

 

As a 14 year old just starting out it blew me away,  I spent ages watching it, could have been based on Stour Valley practice if I remember correctly.  This would have been around 1978.

 

Martyn 

Yes, he did but it was scratch built 3mm rather than TT.

I first saw it at the Romford exhibition about that time.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

19 minutes ago, mullie said:

Did Jas have an East Anglian TT layout before he went S scale? I saw it at what could have been the first Mid Essex MRC exhibition in a small hall near Brentwood Station I think.

 

As a 14 year old just starting out it blew me away,  I spent ages watching it, could have been based on Stour Valley practice if I remember correctly.  This would have been around 1978.

 

Martyn 

Holden Junction, I think it was called? He had a cardboard tombstone with something like "Here lies the last little boy to touch this"......not too sure if he could get away with that today.

 

He had another one called Three Mills, where he used signalling bell codes. The fiddle yard was one block post and the station the next. So all show we would here Ding Ding Ding, followed by Ring Ring Ring form the other box. He was sat in reach of both bells, so he was calling himself and replying to himself.

 

 

Edited August 24 by Clive Mortimore

[jimwal]

Another name guess for Jas Milham's 3mm/TT layout: "The Mid Anglian Line".

 

I believe I may have first seen it at an Exhibition at Leaden Roding village hall run by a group which subsequently become the Mid Essex MRC.

 

The layout certainly used much Triang TT stock but may have used finer track.

[St Enodoc]

10 hours ago, John Isherwood said:

 

....... only if you are one of the tiny minority of potential purchasers who KNOW - OR CARE - that the boiler band should line up with the rivets!

 

John Isherwood.

If you take that point of view to its extreme, then we will get back to the days of 0-4-0s with Flying Scotsman painted on the side.  How far you go, or don't go, down that path is always a matter of personal opinion.

[St Enodoc]

7 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

based on an actual location

That is the key. It doesn't have to be an exact replica to be "based on" an actual location. The main junction station on my layout is "based on" Par but it isn't a copy, for various reasons - not just space. As a result, I call it Porthmellyn Road, not Par. However, those who have seen it, either in the flesh or in photos, and who are familiar with that part of Cornwall, invariably say "That looks like Par".

[St Enodoc]

6 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said:

You might just know, and that’s fine but I suspect 99.9% of people can’t.

If the comment makes a few more aware, so that only 99.8% aren't, is that a good or a bad thing? Everyone has a choice about whether to correct something if they know it's wrong. If they don't know, they don't have the choice.

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

To me, the greatest enjoyment (and I've said this many, many times) is to be able to say 'I made that'.

To me, the greatest enjoyment is to be able to hear someone say (for example) "that's the 1230 FO empty diners from Paddington to Penzance dropping the Pentowan (Newquay) portion at Porthmellyn Road (Par)". I didn't actually make any of them.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Holden Junction, I think it was called? He had a cardboard tombstone with something like "Here lies the last little boy to touch this"......not too sure if he could get away with that today.

 

He had another one called Three Mills, where he used signalling bell codes. The fiddle yard was one block post and the station the next. So all show we would here Ding Ding Ding, followed by Ring Ring Ring form the other box. He was sat in reach of both bells, so he was calling himself and replying to himself.

 

 

Which is why his nickname within the S Scale MRS is Jas Threemillham.

[LNER4479]

Morning Tony,

 

Knowing how much you like to see people actually building things ...

 

I have - finally - completed building this LMS Fairburn tank. Entirely scratch built (other than the usual wheels, fittings, etc)

 

I say 'finally', as I first started it 35 years ago!! In those days, there was no RTR equivalent so it felt a little different (!) Anyhow, I resolved at New Year to finish it, so here she is. I like to think that my standards have improved in that time, so one or two aspects from 35 years ago probably don't bear too much close inspection ... (although the unintended wrinkly tank sides might be more like the prototype than the RTR version, perhaps?)

 

More pictures on my Hills of the North thread.

 

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

To me, the greatest enjoyment is to be able to hear someone say (for example) "that's the 1230 FO empty diners from Paddington to Penzance dropping the Pentowan (Newquay) portion at Porthmellyn Road (Par)". I didn't actually make any of them.

Good morning,

 

I derive equal enjoyment from someone saying (for example) 'That's the Up Elizabethan behind a Haymarket A4, sweeping at speed through Little Bytham'; and I did actually make it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited August 25 by Tony Wright
clumsy grammar

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Morning Tony,

 

Knowing how much you like to see people actually building things ...

 

I have - finally - completed building this LMS Fairburn tank. Entirely scratch built (other than the usual wheels, fittings, etc)

 

I say 'finally', as I first started it 35 years ago!! In those days, there was no RTR equivalent so it felt a little different (!) Anyhow, I resolved at New Year to finish it, so here she is. I like to think that my standards have improved in that time, so one or two aspects from 35 years ago probably don't bear too much close inspection ... (although the unintended wrinkly tank sides might be more like the prototype than the RTR version, perhaps?)

 

More pictures on my Hills of the North thread.

 

Good morning Graham,

 

Excellent!

 

I might have some spare Comet front steps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barclay]

20 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Very thought-provoking. Thank you.

 

I have a rather 'simplistic' take on the whole discussion; how can one be concerned with the 'accuracy' of the items listed above (or the number and positions of rivets, or whether moving components are over-sized, etc), when a whole layout is not based on an actual prototype? The dichotomy is too great for me to understand. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I think this demonstrates wonderfully what a broad church our hobby is. The layouts that have inspired me most are all 'imaginary' - Craig, Tregarrick, Dunwich, Buckingham, for example. It is the imagination used to create something unique that makes them special for me , and I would never consider a prototype location for my own work. I suppose what I'm trying to say is please don't think we are copping out or simply not bothering to get it right - for some of us making something from our imagination, but, hopefully, believable, adds an extra element to the fun!

[Keith Turbutt]

11 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

Being an enthusiast of LNER/GE in BR days two of my favourite exhibition layouts, that I was delighted to see again and again, that fit the above criteria were the MRC's 0 gauge Happisburgh and Geoff Kent's EM Blakeney. Both sadly no longer on the exhibition circuit.

 

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It was in fact Jas Millham's S scale Yaxbury Branch that I had in mind.

Another excellent non prototype exhibition layout that comes to mind is the Gresley Beat.

Although non prototypical it leaves the viewer in no doubt what it is very successfully trying to represent.

It is/was(?), a most entertaining layout to watch as all the elements of the GN line in London suburbs were cleverly put together.

 

I'm sure that there are many others that deserve a mention.

[DenysW]

31 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I derive equal enjoyment from ...

I feel you also quite enjoy the ability to say the equivalent of "Don't question me about the logic behind layout details. That's a GNR/LNER/BR design - ask them!"

[CF MRC]

27 minutes ago, Keith Turbutt said:

 

Another excellent non prototype exhibition layout that comes to mind is the Gresley Beat.

Although non prototypical it leaves the viewer in no doubt what it is very successfully trying to represent.

It is/was(?), a most entertaining layout to watch as all the elements of the GN line in London suburbs were cleverly put together.

“All the right notes, not in the right order”…

 

Tim

[John Isherwood]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

If you take that point of view to its extreme, then we will get back to the days of 0-4-0s with Flying Scotsman painted on the side.  How far you go, or don't go, down that path is always a matter of personal opinion.

 

I am not an advocate of 'dumbing-down' - far from it.

 

What I do support is knowing when a 'defect' is worthy of adverse commemt - or not!

 

John Isherwood.

[Captain Kernow]

The two factors that no one appears to have yet mentioned, that steers people towards building a layout 'based on' somewhere or a given company's practice or even further down the fictitious continuum, are money and space!

 

I contend that most modellers today cannot afford a large enough property to build a viable, full-sized model of an actual location. Most modern houses seem to be getting smaller and smaller. Most people don't have gardens or grounds large enough to accommodate a bespoke, purpose-build building to house such a layout, even if they can afford the actual garden building.

 

Even with exhibition layouts, some people baulk at building very large layouts, due to the logistics of setting the layout up and transporting it to shows, especially as one gets older.

 

All of the above factors seem to steer one towards something smaller, something more manageable, which can fit into the average (small) spare room, loft and perhaps car.

 

When faced with such space constraints, the only realistic answer is to be found in one's imagination.

 

In some ways, building a fictitious layout is easier than copying some prototypical locations. For example, there may be a dearth of reference material, building photos, plans and dimensions, which straight away could compromise the accuracy of the layout, as in such circumstances, one would be forced to 'make it up as you go along'.

 

But when you have the option of choosing structures for which there is information available, you already have a head start in terms of constructing an accurate model building.

 

I would argue that building your own fictitious layout is actually more enjoyable, because you are not a slave to the prototype. You won't have folk pointing out that your home signal is 20mm too far from the signalbox or that the point rodding actually ran along the opposite side of the line etc. etc.

 

There is much fun to be had in the process of researching such a layout:

 

- credible structures, based on the chosen railway company practice

- a prototypical track plan, correctly signalled in accordance with that company's practice

- a sensible back-story as to why the line was built in the first place (the best ones, in my opinion, are those based on a grain of historical truth).

- correctly numbered locos, shedded at a nearby depot, which could feasibly have worked trains over one's fictitious route

 

In terms of building a convincing fictitious layout, perhaps the ultimate accolade is where people come up to you at an exhibition, absolutely convinced they caught a train from there as a child...

 

But then again, I also admire greatly those layouts based on actual prototypes. I envy (in a good way), those with the space, resources - and above all, time - to build such a layout.

 

So my final point is this - there is room for all in this hobby and no single approach should be criticised or condemned. We all surely do the best we can, according to our individual circustances?

 

Edited August 25 by Captain Kernow
Typo

[Tony Wright]

39 minutes ago, Keith Turbutt said:

 

Another excellent non prototype exhibition layout that comes to mind is the Gresley Beat.

Although non prototypical it leaves the viewer in no doubt what it is very successfully trying to represent.

It is/was(?), a most entertaining layout to watch as all the elements of the GN line in London suburbs were cleverly put together.

 

I'm sure that there are many others that deserve a mention.

Good morning Keith,

 

I think there's no doubt that The Gresley Beat represents the areas just north of Kings Cross with little doubt.........

 

 

 

 

Convincing?

 

But, perhaps, not quite as convincing as..............

 

 

 

 

 

Copenhagen fields?

 

Layouts mentioned which are highly-influential, though not based on actual prototypes include......

 

 

 

 

Blakeney, by Geoff Kent.

 

 

Dunwich, by Roy Jackson, Geoff Kent and John Philips.

 

 

 

 

And Buckingham, by Peter Denny (the most-influential 4mm layout of all time?).

 

Not to mention Borchester.............

 

 

 

 

Though none of the stock in these shots is that of Frank Dyer.

 

Happisburgh? Unfortunately I only have film images of this layout.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

12 hours ago, davidw said:

I thought I had enough Heljan O2s until I saw these.

Good morning David,

 

They're a great improvement on the earlier Heljan O2s.................

 

As before, an O2/4 is catered for (top, ex-O2/2).

 

Improvements include all-metal handrail pillars, black-painted rather than just black plastic bodywork, a more-robust (adjustable) drawbar, more-accurate and more-robust valve gear, blackened wheel rims and pick-ups, better chimney and greater attention to QC at source.

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I found Charford very inspiring; learnt the whole concept of trains running to a timetable with a purpose in a specific geographical location.

[Captain Kernow]

7 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I think there's no doubt that The Gresley Beat represents the areas just north of Kings Cross with little doubt.........

 

 

 

Convincing?

 

But, perhaps, not quite as convincing as..............

 

 

 

Copenhagen fields?

 

In terms of convincing the viewer, Tony, you could be right about Copenhagen Fields, but perhaps mainly for those who know the area (or knew the area when it looked like that).

 

For those who have never visited, but perhaps only seen the area through photos or by watching 'The Lavender Hill Mob (which includes myself), Gresley Beat can be just as convincing, as one can easily imagine oneself in that North London street in your photo, in other words, the Gresley Beat has all the atmosphere to make one feel that it's set in that location.

 

[St Enodoc]

12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

But, perhaps, not quite as convincing as..............

Even with all the fictitious names on the business premises (personally, I think they're a great way to honour old friends)?

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, Captain Kernow said:

In terms of convincing the viewer, Tony, you could be right about Copenhagen Fields, but perhaps mainly for those who know the area (or knew the area when it looked like that).

 

For those who have never visited, but perhaps only seen the area through photos or by watching 'The Lavender Hill Mob (which includes myself), Gresley Beat can be just as convincing, as one can easily imagine oneself in that North London street in your photo, in other words, the Gresley Beat has all the atmosphere to make one feel that it's set in that location.

 

Good morning Captain,

 

And watching The Lady Killers...........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Keith Turbutt]

52 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Keith,

 

I think there's no doubt that The Gresley Beat represents the areas just north of Kings Cross with little doubt.........

 

 

 

 

Convincing?

 

But, perhaps, not quite as convincing as..............

 

 

 

 

 

Copenhagen fields?

 

Layouts mentioned which are highly-influential, though not based on actual prototypes include......

 

 

 

 

Blakeney, by Geoff Kent.

 

 

Dunwich, by Roy Jackson, Geoff Kent and John Philips.

 

 

 

 

And Buckingham, by Peter Denny (the most-influential 4mm layout of all time?).

 

Not to mention Borchester.............

 

 

 

 

Though none of the stock in these shots is that of Frank Dyer.

 

Happisburgh? Unfortunately I only have film images of this layout.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Thanks Tony. Wonderful photos. Yes Borchester Market was another of my favourites.

Coming away from Eastern layouts of which we have mentioned  quite a few ,there was a Southern/BR layout. I think it was Waldham Town ? A big roundy roundy with a branch line swinging in.

Edited August 25 by Keith Turbutt
Spelling

[St Enodoc]

41 minutes ago, John Isherwood said:

 

I am not an advocate of 'dumbing-down' - far from it.

 

What I do support is knowing when a 'defect' is worthy of adverse commemt - or not!

 

John Isherwood.

As I suggested above, whether a "defect" is or is not worthy of adverse comment is a matter of personal opinion.

Edited August 25 by St Enodoc