Wright writes.....

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

I am now wholly convinced that, for a significant proportion of the (mostly younger) model railway hobbyists, the trains themselves come a poor second to the masses of electronic wizardry that is required to operate them.

 

This explains why Hornby feel that it is OK to seriously compromise (in the eyes of older modellers) the appearance of the model in order to have yet more 'bells and whistles'.

 

The logical development, of course, will be to dispense entirely with the models, and the hobby will become an arms-race of ever more electronically complex gadgetry operating virtual trains on huge screens!

 

........ oh - but doesn't that almost exist already?

 

CJI.

Well, if you’ve seen the various video games about (Derail Valley, Railroader, and the upcoming Century of Steam), it would be plainly obvious that sans that tactile feel, most models couldn’t compete with the realism and momentum of video game.  Shunting in Railroader, I can tell you, is much better than most models (the only way to match that momentum would be to have ball bearings on all axles and all be a >500 grams per vehicle).  For those who don’t care about that feel or accuracy, the video games would be the obvious choice over models, being far cheaper and easier, which is rather disheartening.

[Chuffer Davies]

1 minute ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

Well, if you’ve seen the various video games about (Derail Valley, Railroader, and the upcoming Century of Steam), it would be plainly obvious that sans that tactile feel, most models couldn’t compete with the realism and momentum of video game.  Shunting in Railroader, I can tell you, is much better than most models (the only way to match that momentum would be to have ball bearings on all axles and all be a >500 grams per vehicle).  For those who don’t care about that feel or accuracy, the video games would be the obvious choice over models, being far cheaper and easier, which is rather disheartening.

Why be disheartened? I have seen some amazing modelling in the virtual world.  In particular I’ve recently seen some renditions of broad gauge models which are spectacular to say the least. Those modelling in this medium are as skilful  as many building in the physical world, it’s just a slightly different skill set.  When I design an etched kit I have to start with a CAD Design just as those virtual modellers require.

Each to their own and good luck to them I say.

Frank 

[Ncl]

21 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Friend, Nick Logan, popped round this evening for one of his twice-yearly visits, bringing with him the following...............

 

I made up 'suitable' trains. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll leave him to explain their origins.

 

Thanks Nick, for bringing these most-interesting models along. 

 

 

 

Thanks for hosting me again Tony. It was good to see you and Mo.

 

The B17 is a Hornby body with Comet frames and valve gear, renumbered amd with new nameplates.

 

The J72 is a scratch built chassis (which Tony helped drill out), with a white metal cast body. I can't remember the kit manufacturer, but final painting and transfers await.

 

The 1st/3rd is a Kirk kit, and the twin is a Comet kit, with some scratch building, and a MJT underframe. Again, both are a work in progress.

 

Any questions, feel free to PM me.

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick.

 

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

14 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Why be disheartened? I have seen some amazing modelling in the virtual world.  In particular I’ve recently seen some renditions of broad gauge models which are spectacular to say the least. Those modelling in this medium are as skilful  as many building in the physical world, it’s just a slightly different skill set.  When I design an etched kit I have to start with a CAD Design just as those virtual modellers require.

Each to their own and good luck to them I say.

Frank 

I’m disheartened because even at such a young age for railway modelling, I already am completely confused and can’t understand the direction the hobby is taking (moving to less tactile feel and more towards new age digital technology), which is of course feels odd to me.  I don’t doubt the skill and passion of game developers, in fact I closely follow the development of Century of Steam, as the head of the studio, Mark “Hyce” Huber, is a very dedicated enthusiast and real locomotive driver (the rest of the studio is great as well), and the game is committed to being the best simulation of driving a steam locomotive, running a train, and laying a railway possible, and I absolutely will buy it, but being a computer based platform, it won’t be the same.  Also, Engineering CAD and 3d modelling software are totally different animals (despite the best feature of Autodesk CADs being rendering abilities).  They are great for their respective purposes, but are terrible for each other’s functions.  I am quite skilled at Autodesk Inventor, Fusion 360, and will learn Solidworx once I can afford it (I don’t have to pay for Autodesk applications being a student), but I am completely useless at Blender, Maya, and others, because they use much  different and less accurate methods to make contours and shapes, where traditional CAD uses input numbers to make precise geometric forms.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I am now wholly convinced that, for a significant proportion of the (mostly younger) model railway hobbyists, the trains themselves come a poor second to the masses of electronic wizardry that is required to operate them.

 

This explains why Hornby feel that it is OK to seriously compromise (in the eyes of older modellers) the appearance of the model in order to have yet more 'bells and whistles'.

 

The logical development, of course, will be to dispense entirely with the models, and the hobby will become an arms-race of ever more electronically complex gadgetry operating virtual trains on huge screens!

 

........ oh - but doesn't that almost exist already?

 

CJI.

I’m all for digital electronics if they help realism (smoke, sound, lights, etc), but if they diminish from realism, like a moulded on handrail, they must go.  There is no reason why these features can’t be implemented properly, like how they are in America.  
 

What I really want is an exact replica from drawings of a locomotive, maybe with a modified whistle so that it sounds right, but I’ll need to wait and get some much wanted machine tools for such endeavours!

[John Isherwood]

35 minutes ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

What I really want is an exact replica from drawings of a locomotive, maybe with a modified whistle so that it sounds right, but I’ll need to wait and get some much wanted machine tools for such endeavours!

 

Sorry, but that is an impossible ambition - working clearances in engineering don't scale.

 

By that I mean that, for a sliding fit of a rod in a hole, you need a certain clearance in that hole. If you reduced that clearance by a scale factor in a model, the rod would not slide in the hole.

 

Exact scale models of working machines are not possible.

 

CJI.

[paul.anderson@poptel.org]

Call me old-fashioned but -- I've spent 40-plus years on screens at work, and making stuff with metal and plastic bits and solder and glue and paint and filler is what I want to do now I'm retired, as a hobby. I'm not very good at it but I really enjoy it. Isn't the enjoyment the point?

 

[Tony Wright]

Good evening Paul,

 

There should be a 'totally agree' button! 

 

I don't think I've spent 40 years in front of screens, but it's certainly the best part of 30, since digital photography appeared. Now, of course, I spend many hours in front of my monitors - processing pictures, writing articles/reviews and responding on here. 

 

One computer (my photo one - not connected to anything but a printer), along with my photo 'studio', is in my workshop (the keyboard/computer/monitor I'm writing this on is in another room). The real 'enjoyment' takes place when I'm at my bench, iron cranked up and I'm actually making something 'real'. Not a simulation, not a product of CAD, but something I'm fashioning with my hands (and burning fingers!). 

 

I'm sure those of 'open mind' will derive just as much pleasure from 'creating' things virtually, but it'll never be for me - too old, too grumpy and too set in my ways. 

 

Equal enjoyment for me is running the things I've built, on my 'physical' trainset; running the railway with dear friends (though we never get it right, no matter how hard we try - it's never the trainset's fault, but mainly my operating incompetence). 

 

Do virtual model railways always run perfectly? Do railways run using phones work perfectly? Will future exhibitions just comprise loads of massive screens?

 

Now, where did I put that slug of low-melt? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited August 1 by Tony Wright
clumsy grammar

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

48 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Sorry, but that is an impossible ambition - working clearances in engineering don't scale.

 

By that I mean that, for a sliding fit of a rod in a hole, you need a certain clearance in that hole. If you reduced that clearance by a scale factor in a model, the rod would not slide in the hole.

 

Exact scale models of working machines are not possible.

 

CJI.

All true statements, but I will add that in most of those cases, some sort of packing is used, and if not, it will have worn within a few years to the level that I would still have realism.  As for other scaling issues, I’ll try my best to use the fantastically advanced modern materials to do the best I can, and if it doesn’t work, I’ll see what I have to modify to make it work and have 2, one as a static model, and the other running (with me using looped pieces of wire to use the cab controls!  

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

I already am completely confused and can’t understand the direction the hobby is taking (moving to less tactile feel and more towards new age digital technology), which is of course feels odd to me.

The hobby has always moved in several directions at the same time. Just choose one that you like and enjoy it.

[Roger Sunderland]

16 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

I cannot for the life of me understand the appeal to controlling trains with a smartphone (especially considering that when I finally get get a proper layout built, I’ll be adding levers and handles to an ESU ECoS to be able to control everything in a way that doesn’t deeply dissatisfy me, but I digress).  
 

The tactile response and feel of a smartphone for most tasks already leaves much to be asked.  There is nought feedback, nought friction, no way at all of knowing at all what’s going on, especially when compared to a regulator handle or my favourite possible feedback, the slight resistance from the handle of a Lorch watchmakers lathe cross slide, which feels amazing in the hand.  
 

I know I’m not being a fuddy-Duddy or anything though because my age (just barely) starts with a 1, which is really young for most things (especially railway modelling), yet I find myself in the place of a complete and total lack of understanding the (mostly younger end of the range) people who would tolerate, let alone accept, and even prefer a touchscreen for the control of a locomotive!  Perhaps I’m just being persnickety or overly particular about control, but I remember the main selling point of the ZTC controller being the tactile feel and knowing that your controlling a (model of a) large, old, metallic, industrial machine, based on levers, and screws, and things that have a good resistance to movement, and don’t feel cheap or plasticy or delicate, but robust.  
 

Without that tactile feel, a model seems a lot less like a real locomotive, that can only accelerate so fast despite its immense power, and a lot more like a little frail toy, that wizzes around pointlessly, but is that not the case with those who do use their smartphones to control a layout?  I couldn’t even imagine being such a way.

You might not understand the appeal but I do . I’m 71 and am building my latest layout (I’ve built upwards of 100 layouts for myself and others previously) on which I’m using Panel Pro to control running, points, routes and signals and using my IPhone as the throttle.

SUPERB! Does everything I need to ensure I can run a truly authentic timetable - intuitive, no wires, not tethered, simple to use and gives wireless silky smooth performance of locomotives, plus anyone can visit my layout and download the app to have their own personal controller. Maybe when you get round to building that layout you’ll give it a try.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

30 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said:

You might not understand the appeal but I do . I’m 71 and am building my latest layout (I’ve built upwards of 100 layouts for myself and others previously) on which I’m using Panel Pro to control running, points, routes and signals and using my IPhone as the throttle.

SUPERB! Does everything I need to ensure I can run a truly authentic timetable - intuitive, no wires, not tethered, simple to use and gives wireless silky smooth performance of locomotives, plus anyone can visit my layout and download the app to have their own personal controller. Maybe when you get round to building that layout you’ll give it a try.

My question is about how does it feel to give the locomotives more regulator?  Does it feel like manhandling a heavy, industrial machine?  I have no doubt that they can perform the task of controlling everything with wonderful authority, and the only reason why I wouldn’t prefer such a system is that I can’t get the tactile response that allows me to feel like I’m operating a real, rugged railway instead of playing with high tech Brio or Tony trains.  
 

For the same reason, I’m going to try to make mechanical levers for point and signal control, and make sure that they’re big enough that I can use both hands to get the same level of feeling from that as well.

 

 Just for the sake of it, I’ll probably have turntables operated by a hand crank (a handle extending far away from the turntable though), and even though that isn’t realistic, I still desire the feedback from it.  I totally understand why most wouldn’t put up with such systems though.

[Barry Ten]

I use a phone or tablet for operating my French layout at home, not because I particularly like touchscreen interfaces (I don't) but because it's the least bad solution for walkaround control. There's no one position that would work well for a tethered handset, and I don't currently like any of the walkaround DCC controllers (such as the Bachmann Dynamis) easily available on the UK market. As for it not replicating the feel of a real regulator, true, but neither does the twiddly little knob or slider on your average DC or DCC controller.

 

(I drove a real loco at Bristol docks a few weeks, ago, incidentally, and the force required to move and stop the regulator was incredible! I'm not sure I'd want to be doing that over and over again during an operating session!).

 

Al (Barry Ten)

[MJI]

2 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

My question is about how does it feel to give the locomotives more regulator?  Does it feel like manhandling a heavy, industrial machine?  I have no doubt that they can perform the task of controlling everything with wonderful authority, and the only reason why I wouldn’t prefer such a system is that I can’t get the tactile response that allows me to feel like I’m operating a real, rugged railway instead of playing with high tech Brio or Tony trains.  
 

For the same reason, I’m going to try to make mechanical levers for point and signal control, and make sure that they’re big enough that I can use both hands to get the same level of feeling from that as well.

 

 Just for the sake of it, I’ll probably have turntables operated by a hand crank (a handle extending far away from the turntable though), and even though that isn’t realistic, I still desire the feedback from it.  I totally understand why most wouldn’t put up with such systems though.

Nothing wrong with Tony trains

[Bucoops]

I think it comes down to the same thing as forum username - everyone is different :)

[Mike 84C]

I do not think that it is possible to recreate totally that pause before steam overcomes mechanical resistance and be able to feel it through the controller.  As for point and signal control using levers and rods, same applies. Better chance with signaling and points but I think it would be a very cumbersome system.

 But opening that regulator just that fraction before movement and ready to slam it shut if you got to much movement, its a feel that you only get by experiencing the real thing. How about the scorching overalls stood in front of the firehole doors, or the shaking about from two big ends at each end of the piston stroke and the noise in the cab of a 5MT or 8F or worse an Austerity. Operating sesions  could get very tiring . I'm not sure a simulator could recreate all those sensory perceptions and probably fit recruitment on the head.

[Captain Kernow]

31 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

IHow about the scorching overalls stood in front of the firehole doors, or the shaking about from two big ends at each end of the piston stroke and the noise in the cab of a 5MT or 8F or worse an Austerity. Operating sesions  could get very tiring . I'm not sure a simulator could recreate all those sensory perceptions and probably fit recruitment on the head.

A fair point, steam locos can be awkward and temperamental, but I'm not sure that you really need to experience the bad big ends or the heat from the firebox in a model environment.

 

I certainly get where Rohan is coming from on this one.

 

[Captain Kernow]

18 hours ago, paul.anderson@poptel.org said:

Call me old-fashioned but -- I've spent 40-plus years on screens at work, and making stuff with metal and plastic bits and solder and glue and paint and filler is what I want to do now I'm retired, as a hobby. I'm not very good at it but I really enjoy it. Isn't the enjoyment the point?

I also couldn't agree more.

 

Things like CAD, laser cutting, 3-D printing may be a big element in the future of the hobby and can, for example, produce some absolutely exquisite and detailed components for model buildings, but I would much prefer to achieve the same result by cutting and gluing pieces of Slaters plasticard...

 

[PMP]

18 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Do railways run using phones work perfectly?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Peter Kirmonds Laramie, York and Simon Thompson’s S7 layouts, and a US HO Fremo layout have been the equal of both DCC and DC ‘conventional’ control layouts in my experience as an operator.

Edited August 2 by PMP

[PMP]

5 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

My question is about how does it feel to give the locomotives more regulator?  Does it feel like manhandling a heavy, industrial machine?

No they don’t, but then neither does turning the dial on my Gaugemaster W, and the electrical switches that change my point motor switches. The same effect is apparent with digital simulation games, the control input feels nothing like the movement of a vehicle or aircraft.

 

Nothing wrong with wanting to achieve the best effect you can, but some things just aren’t realistic, eg smoke from current RTR locomotives, or impossible to replicate like some of the literal physical aspects you’d like to achieve. 

[Bernard Lamb]

Recently I had an opportunity to visit a railway location that is usually off limits to the general public.

When St Pancras station was buit, there was a water tower provided, to service the locomotives. This remained in use until the end of steam and then stood empty and redundant, until the rebuilding of the area for Eurostar trains. It was in the way and had to go. Various groups looked at saving it and a plan was developed to move it further north. A simple idea. Built a new base, cut the tower in two, lift the two pieces, move then and join then back together. A few months work and around a £1m in cash they did it. It is now in the loving care of the local canal crusing club. The views from the top are amazing.

Bernard

 

The tower.

 

 

 

Detail of the fancy brick work.

 

 

The station throat.

 

 

View towards Euston and the PO/BT Tower.

 

 

Eurostar.

 

 

Coal Drops Yard and the new Google building. It is huge. The trees on the roof are full size. The Shard on its side would fit inside it.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Here is something I wrote on my own layout thread, and hopefully it is applicable to everyone.

 

"I was running some trains earlier today and the grey cells started acting together and I came to the conclusion I have the best model railway in the world.

 

Not the most perfect but it meets all my needs, therefore the best in the world.

 

There will be prettier ones, better running ones, ones with finished rolling stock and a host of other stuff you can think of, but none will be a good as mine in my eyes as they will not do what my layout does for me.

 

There are lots of stuff still to do, there is still lots of modelling fun to be had but that will only enhance on what I have achieved.

 

This not a big headed statement but one of reality. When you next play with your train set, I hope you are as lucky as I am and can come to the same conclusion that your model railway is the best in the world as it meets your wants and desires."

 

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

3 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

I do not think that it is possible to recreate totally that pause before steam overcomes mechanical resistance and be able to feel it through the controller.  As for point and signal control using levers and rods, same applies. Better chance with signaling and points but I think it would be a very cumbersome system.

 But opening that regulator just that fraction before movement and ready to slam it shut if you got to much movement, its a feel that you only get by experiencing the real thing. How about the scorching overalls stood in front of the firehole doors, or the shaking about from two big ends at each end of the piston stroke and the noise in the cab of a 5MT or 8F or worse an Austerity. Operating sesions  could get very tiring . I'm not sure a simulator could recreate all those sensory perceptions and probably fit recruitment on the head.

Well, one thing I can tell you that’s great about analogue control is that I’ve always needed to play games with the regulator knob(?) to get the best performance.  Once you have a train that’s heavy and free rolling enough, I’ve found that it’s important that you don’t let locos slip (especially when accelerating), otherwise they come to a grinding halt!
 

 I best test result was using a straight DC controller (non feed back Bachmann one, it’s good), using my best slow speed performer, the underdog Bachmann Thomas the Tank engine (which in slow speed performance just slightly out matches Hornby J15s and matches a Hornby J36, rather impressively), hauling a some 4 wheel coaches that had Brad nails loaded in for precise weight control.  
 

The consist performed with impeccable realism.  I had to increase voltage input to 60% until the wheels slowly started to crawl, and then after moving the train a bit, burst into a good wheel slip causing the train to start to slow.  I had to really learn how to drive that little 0-6-0 that day, with it taking a good 5 ft to get up to ~40 scale mph without too much slipping fits, when I did push it too far though, the slip had to be caught by reducing voltage to nought, and bringing it back up again.

 

 By controlling the locomotive with skill, I also found that it could pull more by edging out to quarter slipping, and reducing to the magical amount of slipping where maximum traction occurs.  I never got over that day of testing.  It showed just how much realism could be achieved with even my extremely austere and small temporary layout.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

3 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

I do not think that it is possible to recreate totally that pause before steam overcomes mechanical resistance and be able to feel it through the controller.  As for point and signal control using levers and rods, same applies. Better chance with signaling and points but I think it would be a very cumbersome system.

 But opening that regulator just that fraction before movement and ready to slam it shut if you got to much movement, its a feel that you only get by experiencing the real thing. How about the scorching overalls stood in front of the firehole doors, or the shaking about from two big ends at each end of the piston stroke and the noise in the cab of a 5MT or 8F or worse an Austerity. Operating sesions  could get very tiring . I'm not sure a simulator could recreate all those sensory perceptions and probably fit recruitment on the head.

As a quick note, I did figure out how to recreate some of the effects of heat.  I found that I could make a small working firebox in a 4mm scale Gresley A1 (which will be the first model I scratch build out of tungsten), where the exhaust fumes and ash will be piped to a central boiler flue of sorts, so that I can almost fully model the interior of the smokebox and also use a homemade smoke unit (using high density film industry smoke machine fluid) to be able to get something of a realistic effect, and still have space for everything else.  
 

This does though necessitate the use of a slightly smaller (than usual 130 type) high rpm motor, geared down heavily to keep everything compact and neat.  For the gearbox for that, I’m looking into the best way to make bevelled herringbone gears to minimise noise and friction, while maximising efficiency and power.

 I’ll also end up experimenting with both centrifugal and bendix (Dynadrive type) clutches, the latter of which, I figured out how to make an automatic, analogue working reverser, as I had a revelation about such a concept one day, and while a small motor under the cab would be more suitable for DCC, I still want to try the mechanical version for the sake of it.  
 

on a second note, that didn’t end up being “a short note” in most senses of the word

[Blandford1969]

9 hours ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

My question is about how does it feel to give the locomotives more regulator?  Does it feel like manhandling a heavy, industrial machine?  I have no doubt that they can perform the task of controlling everything with wonderful authority, and the only reason why I wouldn’t prefer such a system is that I can’t get the tactile response that allows me to feel like I’m operating a real, rugged railway instead of playing with high tech Brio or Tony trains.  
 

For the same reason, I’m going to try to make mechanical levers for point and signal control, and make sure that they’re big enough that I can use both hands to get the same level of feeling from that as well.

 

 Just for the sake of it, I’ll probably have turntables operated by a hand crank (a handle extending far away from the turntable though), and even though that isn’t realistic, I still desire the feedback from it.  I totally understand why most wouldn’t put up with such systems though.

It all depends. If starting away there is a short delay from opening the regulator to (hopefully) seeing movement, which will depend on whether saturated or superheated, how big the boiler is and how much slack there is in the regulator. BR ones and ones on West Countries always seem to have more. 

 

In terms of opening the regulator more to be honest you feel it through your ears and feet. You learn to respect them and feel what is going on. Generally you can feel a slip is coming before it happens to be able to minimise or avoid it. With braking its the same, how quickly you feel the train check depends on how much the vaccum is lowered and for how long the vaccum is lowered. I normally drop about 5 to 6 inches in and work on the basis of one second per coach for the brakes to be effective. Of course you can put more in, but you may find the steam brake (if fitted) then comes in (they can stick on) and of course the speed the come off will be determined by the size of the ejector.