Wright writes.....

[DenysW]

19 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

round  30-inch curves

At scale I get this to be just under 3 chains diameter (if I've confused radius and diameter, I hope I've done it to make things milder, not worse-looking). Most steam age seems to have been built to require dead slow below 5 chains radius (10 chains diameter) and not expect that the locomotives won't fail/stall below 6 chains radius (12 chains diameter).

 

(a) please correct my numbers if wrong

(b) are we being unreasonable to expect realistic-looking rolling stock to go around unrealistic-looking trainset curves?

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, DenysW said:

(b) are we being unreasonable to expect realistic-looking rolling stock to go around unrealistic-looking trainset curves?

 

That's why we have 00 - it's the necessary compromise to make a model main-line railway a practical proposition for anyone without (a) a barn or (b) a long gallery.

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's why we have 00 - it's the necessary compromise to make a model main-line railway a practical proposition for anyone without (a) a barn or (b) a long gallery.

Or (c), a realisation that a yard outside would work, as cement is surprisingly cheap.  C is my choice/reasoning to go for S4x in the backyard, over a cramped, small 00 layout somewhere in the house.

[robertcwp]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Robert,

 

I recall a day's spotting at Temple Meads in about 1961. A Warship arrived on the Down 'Bristolian', composed of a complete rake of BR Mk.1s, all in chocolate/cream, apart from the catering car; which was in maroon. Looking back, I doubt if I'd identified it, but was it probably ex-GWR? 

 

The main memory of the day is the number of announcements apologising for the late arrival of trains due to 'locomotive failure'. They should have been qualified by the use of 'diesel'! One express arrived with a gleaming Warship on the front; except it wasn't exactly at the front. It came in behind the dirtiest County I'd ever seen!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

The Bristolian changed in September 1961. The train became longer, slower and gained a Bath Spa stop. At the same time the ex-GWR catering car was replaced by a Mark 1 RB. W1646, which was almost new, was repainted chocolate and cream for the purpose. It was I believe the only Mark 1 with Commonwealth bogies to carry chocolate and cream, other than 'heritage' liveries. Around the same time, the remainder of the Bristolian set was fitted with a trial batch of B4 bogies. 

 

In 1962, chocolate and cream livery for WR named trains was officially abandoned and the sets were no longer longer kept in that livery. What you saw may have been a substitution or during the transition away from chocolate and cream. The Cornish Riviera and Torbay Express were amongst the first to go all maroon. Around 1962, the WR received a large batch of Mark 1 corridor seconds and some open seconds in maroon with Commonwealth bogies. These went into lots of the principal services and some older stock in chocolate and cream was transferred to the Great Eastern and repainted maroon at Stratford. 

[Tony Wright]

5 hours ago, DenysW said:

At scale I get this to be just under 3 chains diameter (if I've confused radius and diameter, I hope I've done it to make things milder, not worse-looking). Most steam age seems to have been built to require dead slow below 5 chains radius (10 chains diameter) and not expect that the locomotives won't fail/stall below 6 chains radius (12 chains diameter).

 

(a) please correct my numbers if wrong

(b) are we being unreasonable to expect realistic-looking rolling stock to go around unrealistic-looking trainset curves?

Good evening Denys,

 

In answer to your question, probably yes. The greatest 'lack of realism' occurs (in my experience) where a much greater distance than scale is required between coupled longer vehicles in order that they can negotiate tight radii. I know there are some coupling systems (kinematic?) which automatically increase that coupled distance on curves, but I have no experience of them. I merely make my own couplings (hook & goalpost, pulling of the headstocks; not via the bogies or pivots), long enough to ensure adjacent buffers don't touch on curves, disguising any larger-than-life distance betwixt adjacent carriages by the use of (touching) concertina connectors on gangwayed stock. This works better on the main line at Bytham (minimum radius 36") than on the MR/M&GNR bit (minimum radius just over 24", though the stock tends to be shorter there (mainly ex-LMS carriages) and the trains aren't as long. 

 

What lets many layouts down (in my view) are far-too-tight visible curves (usually for gaining access to/from the fiddle yard on continuous-run systems) They never do look 'right' to me.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 minute ago, robertcwp said:

The Bristolian changed in September 1961. The train became longer, slower and gained a Bath Spa stop. At the same time the ex-GWR catering car was replaced by a Mark 1 RB. W1646, which was almost new, was repainted chocolate and cream for the purpose. It was I believe the only Mark 1 with Commonwealth bogies to carry chocolate and cream, other than 'heritage' liveries. Around the same time, the remainder of the Bristolian set was fitted with a trial batch of B4 bogies. 

 

In 1962, chocolate and cream livery for WR named trains was officially abandoned and the sets were no longer longer kept in that livery. What you saw may have been a substitution or during the transition away from chocolate and cream. The Cornish Riviera and Torbay Express were amongst the first to go all maroon. Around 1962, the WR received a large batch of Mark 1 corridor seconds and some open seconds in maroon with Commonwealth bogies. These went into lots of the principal services and some older stock in chocolate and cream was transferred to the Great Eastern and repainted maroon at Stratford. 

Thanks Robert,

 

My sighting would have been in the August/early-September of 1961, during the school holidays.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Ian Hargrave]

Are we talking about the up or down Bristolian here ? The down always went via Bath.But the up via Badminton & Chipping Sodbury. IIRC….and I was in Uni at Bristol during that period and spent too much time at Temple Meads to the detriment of my studies ( another story ) ..Warship hauled ahead of Mk 1 running on Swindon B4 bogies.

Maybe memory is at fault but at the time I was unaware of  any route change to the up .Code 1A98 followed1H32 The Cornishman  Warship to 84A Castle to Wolverhampton via what’s now The Warwickshire Railway & Stratford on Avon.

 

 

 

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

The Bristolian changed in September 1961. The train became longer, slower and gained a Bath Spa stop. At the same time the ex-GWR catering car was replaced by a Mark 1 RB. W1646, which was almost new, was repainted chocolate and cream for the purpose. It was I believe the only Mark 1 with Commonwealth bogies to carry chocolate and cream, other than 'heritage' liveries. Around the same time, the remainder of the Bristolian set was fitted with a trial batch of B4 bogies. 

 

In 1962, chocolate and cream livery for WR named trains was officially abandoned and the sets were no longer longer kept in that livery. What you saw may have been a substitution or during the transition away from chocolate and cream. The Cornish Riviera and Torbay Express were amongst the first to go all maroon. Around 1962, the WR received a large batch of Mark 1 corridor seconds and some open seconds in maroon with Commonwealth bogies. These went into lots of the principal services and some older stock in chocolate and cream was transferred to the Great Eastern and repainted maroon at Stratford. 

That's really useful, thanks.  My only Mk1 catering vehicle knowledge is that none were built in crimson/cream livery, so any in preservation are un-prototypical.

[CF MRC]

A visitor to Copenhagen Fields returning to York. 

The beautiful Coronation set was made by John Aldrick and is more normally seen on Peter Kirmond’s superb York layout. 
 

A minor signal bridge has also now been installed at the Gasworks Tunnel end of Belle Isle. 



Tim

[Clive Mortimore]

11 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

That's really useful, thanks.  My only Mk1 catering vehicle knowledge is that none were built in crimson/cream livery, so any in preservation are un-prototypical.

The first batches of RK and RFs along with their RFO and RSO coaches were . Each region had a few. As far as I know all were repainted after 1956 to maroon or SR green, but they were all early withdrawals. Some underframes later carried Griddle Car bodies and one offs like the Bar Car.

 

The later and very long lasting catering vehicles were all built after the livery change.

[robertcwp]

16 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

That's really useful, thanks.  My only Mk1 catering vehicle knowledge is that none were built in crimson/cream livery, so any in preservation are un-prototypical.

RK 80000-80009, RF 301-305, RFO 1-11, RTO 1000-1013 and RU W1900 were all crimson and cream when new. No others were.

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Robert,

 

My sighting would have been in the August/early-September of 1961, during the school holidays.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

The maroon catering car was probably a substitution in that case. Not uncommon in the chocolate and cream era.

 

 

[Northmoor]

2 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

RK 80000-80009, RF 301-305, RFO 1-11, RTO 1000-1013 and RU W1900 were all crimson and cream when new. No others were.

Thank you @robertcwp and @Clive Mortimore; whichever "reference" book it was I read was clearly duff (no it wasn't about 47s......)

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

12 minutes ago, CF MRC said:

A visitor to Copenhagen Fields returning to York. 

The beautiful Coronation set was made by John Aldrick and is more normally seen on Peter Kirmond’s superb York layout. 
 

A minor signal bridge has also now been installed at the Gasworks Tunnel end of Belle Isle. 



Tim

Beautiful.  Just an absolutely wonderful look to the train.  I kind of reminds me of the livery/colour Mallard had from 1986-88.  It looks a lot like like Oxford Blue.  I’ll have to make two Coronation sets I guess.

[sandra]

Hello Tony,

 

A few days ago you asked if anyone could show a model built from a Millholme Models kit. Retford does have an A2/3 built from a Millholme kit and here she is, 60514 Chamossaire on the up “Norseman”. The loco has a Mashima motor with a High Level gearbox a good combination and thus the she runs very well.

I realise that this is a poor model but it is quite powerful and will haul heavy trains with no problem. So although it’s a bit of an ugly duckling, I am quite fond of her. There is probably little that can be done to improve the loco but I may scratch-build a new cab, particularly the cab roof which is very poor.

 

I’m not sure if this counts but Retford also has an A2/2 60504 Mons Meg which I built using parts froma Crownline kit. This kit had a resin boiler which I did not like and so I substituted a spare boiler and firebox from a Millholme A2/3 kit.

The cab roof and the smoke box have been scratch-built but the locomotive has not yet been finished and there are several improvements to be made. I’m particularly unhappy with the boiler bands which will have to be done again.

 

Sandra

[robertcwp]

29 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Thank you @robertcwp and @Clive Mortimore; whichever "reference" book it was I read was clearly duff (no it wasn't about 47s......)

E80002_BSH_1952 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[davidw]

9 hours ago, robertcwp said:

E80002_BSH_1952 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

We're there 3 different types of RK, dia 700, 701 and 702. The early versions being withdrawn or rebuilt to later. I seem to recall it was a bit of a minefield.

[Tony Wright]

11 hours ago, sandra said:

Hello Tony,

 

A few days ago you asked if anyone could show a model built from a Millholme Models kit. Retford does have an A2/3 built from a Millholme kit and here she is, 60514 Chamossaire on the up “Norseman”. The loco has a Mashima motor with a High Level gearbox a good combination and thus the she runs very well.

I realise that this is a poor model but it is quite powerful and will haul heavy trains with no problem. So although it’s a bit of an ugly duckling, I am quite fond of her. There is probably little that can be done to improve the loco but I may scratch-build a new cab, particularly the cab roof which is very poor.

 

I’m not sure if this counts but Retford also has an A2/2 60504 Mons Meg which I built using parts froma Crownline kit. This kit had a resin boiler which I did not like and so I substituted a spare boiler and firebox from a Millholme A2/3 kit.

The cab roof and the smoke box have been scratch-built but the locomotive has not yet been finished and there are several improvements to be made. I’m particularly unhappy with the boiler bands which will have to be done again.

 

Sandra

Good morning Sandra,

 

Thanks for showing these. It set me thinking of related subjects of possible interest.........

 

 

The only picture of a model of 60514 is this; taken many years ago on Gilbert Barnatt's original Peterborough layout, it was built/painted by John Houlden from a DJH kit. I believe it's now been replaced by a modified Hornby one.

 

 

Here's my MONS MEG, from a similar angle to yours, built from a Crownline kit (including the resin boiler, which I didn't like) and painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

I still think the best way to get an A2/2 (and an A2/3) is to build the DJH kit.

 

 

Here's one of mine, painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

It has an 'interesting' post-construction history...........

 

 

As well as its OO chassis, I built an EM one as well, so that it could run on Retford. When Roy was alive, it operated on Retford for a year or two.

 

Then he started making a DJH A2/2 for himself, but didn't like the DJH chassis provided. He, thus, decided to make his own. In the meanwhile, I loaned him 60506's EM chassis so that his 60501 could run, at least until a 'proper' set of EM frames could be completed.

 

Sadly, as we know, that never happened........

 

 

 

 

Which means it's still running on 'my' chassis. 'My' chassis, only in the sense that I built it, because I gave it to Roy when it was clear the one under construction would never be completed. Is it still around? 

 

I assume 60501 still runs well? 

 

I think the best way to get an A2/3 as well, is to build the DJH kit.

 

 

Is this one your work? 

 

It certainly looks the part. 

 

Do you have a modified Hornby A2/2 at all?

 

 

I renumbered/renamed/detailed one which was weathered by Geoff Haynes, which now runs on York. 

 

Finally.........

 

 

I take it (at least I hope) that donated Millholme Ivatt 4MT which I completed, painted and weathered is still running well. I can't recall who donated it, but thanks once again. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, davidw said:

We're there 3 different types of RK, dia 700, 701 and 702. The early versions being withdrawn or rebuilt to later. I seem to recall it was a bit of a minefield.

Yes. D700 (E80000-3, M80004-6, W80007-8, S80009) were built in 1951 and were basically a BR Mark 1 version of the Thompson kitchen cars and had anthracite/electric stoves.  All withdrawn by the mid-1960s.

 

The next batch were Diag 701 M80010-21 built 1962 with a revised layout. They also had anthracite/electric cooking even though other Mark 1 catering cars with propane gas cooking were already being built. I read somewhere that this was because BR had the equipment in store following an earlier cancelled order. Diag 701 were very short-lived, lasting only until around 1968. 

 

The final batch built in 1962-3 (M80022-39 and W80040) were Diag 702 with propane gas cooking. They had the same basic bodyshell as Diag 701. The final ones lasted until around 1980. Some moved to the Eastern Region very early in their lives. This is a Diag 702:

 

M80028_Skipton by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[andytrains]

Is that "Fag Ash Lil" sitting on the bench?

[Dunsignalling]

58 minutes ago, andytrains said:

Is that "Fag Ash Lil" sitting on the bench?

 

All bar two of the male smokers of my acquaintance have either packed it in or switched to vaping, and the consumption of actual tobacco seems to have become a mainly female thing round here....

 

[Beechnut]

8 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I take it (at least I hope) that donated Millholme Ivatt 4MT which I completed, painted and weathered is still running well. I can't recall who donated it, but thanks once again. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony

 

I can lay claim to the Ivatt and I noticed the lack of balance weights, I suppose I can claim that too.

 

Brendan

 

8 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

[Willie Whizz]

3 hours ago, andytrains said:

Is that "Fag Ash Lil" sitting on the bench?

Reminds me of my Mum as she looked around that date!

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Beechnut said:

I can lay claim to the Ivatt and I noticed the lack of balance weights, I suppose I can claim that too.

 

Brendan

 

Thanks Brendan,

 

I should have remembered.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[sandra]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Sandra,

 

Thanks for showing these. It set me thinking of related subjects of possible interest.........

 

 

The only picture of a model of 60514 is this; taken many years ago on Gilbert Barnatt's original Peterborough layout, it was built/painted by John Houlden from a DJH kit. I believe it's now been replaced by a modified Hornby one.

 

 

Here's my MONS MEG, from a similar angle to yours, built from a Crownline kit (including the resin boiler, which I didn't like) and painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

I still think the best way to get an A2/2 (and an A2/3) is to build the DJH kit.

 

 

Here's one of mine, painted by Ian Rathbone. 

 

It has an 'interesting' post-construction history...........

 

 

As well as its OO chassis, I built an EM one as well, so that it could run on Retford. When Roy was alive, it operated on Retford for a year or two.

 

Then he started making a DJH A2/2 for himself, but didn't like the DJH chassis provided. He, thus, decided to make his own. In the meanwhile, I loaned him 60506's EM chassis so that his 60501 could run, at least until a 'proper' set of EM frames could be completed.

 

Sadly, as we know, that never happened........

 

 

 

 

Which means it's still running on 'my' chassis. 'My' chassis, only in the sense that I built it, because I gave it to Roy when it was clear the one under construction would never be completed. Is it still around? 

 

I assume 60501 still runs well? 

 

I think the best way to get an A2/3 as well, is to build the DJH kit.

 

 

Is this one your work? 

 

It certainly looks the part. 

 

Do you have a modified Hornby A2/2 at all?

 

 

I renumbered/renamed/detailed one which was weathered by Geoff Haynes, which now runs on York. 

 

Finally.........

 

 

I take it (at least I hope) that donated Millholme Ivatt 4MT which I completed, painted and weathered is still running well. I can't recall who donated it, but thanks once again. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

 

 

Hello Tony,

 

60501 is running well and is usually on one of the principle trains. However Retford does have a further A2/2, 60506 Wolf of Badenoch which here has found itself at the head of the down Yorkshire Pullman.
This is a DJH A2/2 which I bought on eBay. It was built in OO by an unknown builder however I did extensively rebuild it and I converted it to EM gauge.  It’s a powerful engine and I’m convinced that to obtain a locomotive which can haul a long heavy train it’s best for it to be fairly heavy and this can best be achieved by building a white metal kit. I do have a Hornby A3, 60103 Flying Scotsman. There is very limited scope to add extra weight to this loco and as a result it’s not able to haul a heavy train, thus it has be confined to running a Doncaster to Grantham stopper on the basis that it’s running in from Doncaster. When I bought this locomotive it was a special edition in blue early BR livery. I repainted it and converted it to EM gauge. It looks nice but it is of limited use. Incidentally the O4/3 behind the A3 is also a new Retford engine built from a Little Engines kit. I’ve just weathered it.

 

There are probably enough big engines to haul the principal passenger trains on Retford so recently I’ve been building a few of the tank engines which could be seen at Retford.This is a J52 I’m building from an unknown kit which I bought off eBay. Rather unusually the kit is entirely nickel silver. Retford is set in 1957 and there was a J52 shedded there then. However I’ve now discovered that the J52 based at Retford was actually a rebuild of a J53 and thus looks quite different so this model is not entirely suitable. I will number it as one of the Doncaster ones and suggest it’s been lent to Retford to cover a failure.Finally this is an N5 I’m building from a South Eastern Finecast kit. I bought the partly built kit from Geoff West. It’s a very nice kit and I would recommend it to the novice as a first attempt at locomotive building. I have a photograph of the original locomotive on Retford GC shed in absolutely deplorable condition. I will weather it but not as much as shown in that photo.

 

Sandra