Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

At first glance it looks OK but the devil is in the detail.

 

photo courtesy of Mr Derek Shore, evil digital stuff by me.

 

Quick update

checking with the map, the two signals are actually relatively close together. A quick call to our signal expert would seem to reveal that in practice, a train could be longer then the distance between the concrete post and latice post signals.

The concrete post signal has the home for the junction with the loop lines and the distant  that is controlled by leicester passenger south box (off scene). The latice post is a double repeater, (to be viewed both under and over upperton

road bridge) with  homes protecting the entrance/exit from the carriage sheds and  distants for the junction with the loop line. Further south is a double post six peg with repeaters, (for the Midland line bridge) that again has home and distants

as well as contolling the junction that  allows access to the goods yard and loop lines. We are going to check with our ex GC signal man friend, to see what would happen if a train did exceed the length between the two signals and had to

stop.

The double post six peg was scratch built by John Marsh.

Thanks Andrew,

 

The curve appears to be very tight, but it could be the foreshortening in the picture of the splitting signals. 

 

I haven't seen Leicester South since its embryonic days, but do the signals work? Unless I'm missing something I can't see any operating wires, and cranks to the top bracket. Forgive my zeal, but non-working semaphore signals are something I find hard to reconcile on a model railway, especially an exhibition one. I can understand their being temporarily put in place on a layout under construction, but any 'suspension of disbelief' disappears with 'fixed' signals in my view. 

[grob1234]

The Coronations are certainly nicely painted. Nickel Silver would have been ideal then one could scrape back to it for the strainless steel trim on these coaches.

 

You're quite right, with hindsight that's what I would have done, and certainly if I ever built a similar kit again (unlikely!) its what I would attempt.  Alas, they're done now

[The Stationmaster]

Good morning Andrew. 

 

The PDK kit is certainly a good starting point, though (from what I can infer from your post) the valve gear is simplified. By that, I mean it's not designed to give movement to the piston rods/radius rods at source. 

 

Distance for distants? A good question, and the answer is there aren't any on Little Bytham. Why not? Because they're all far too far away to be modelled, even on the slow lines. I've got the signalling diagrams and Bytham's Down fast distant is well south of Careby and the Up fast is towards Corby Glen. 

 

I suppose this could come under 'selective compression', where one might compress the distance between distants on a model railway. On the majority, really no distant signals should be seen because the safe distance modelled to scale would mean the layout would have to be really long. There were, of course, site specific instances of distant signals being really close to their respective homes. Retford, for instance, had three 'boxes within a mile of each other, so they were all in a row. Peterborough North also had close-to-home distant signals. The local regulations would ensure that safety was paramount in their operations. Perhaps a signalling expert might care to comment. On Stoke Summit there was a distant signal that 'appeared' to be far too close to its home to enable a train at full speed to stop. This, however, was an inner distant, kept 'on' for a train diverging on to the slow line. 

A reasonable distance from a Home Signal to its Distant on a fast mainline route in the steam age was around 1,000 yards plus  (on the ECML it could be plus quite a lot because of changes made to accommodate the streamliners in the 1930s).  Even on a bucolic branch line the distant is going to be 800 yards or more in rear of the Home unless there is a steep rising gradient between the two.  So in 4mm scale we are talking about the distant signal being 30 feet, or a lot more, in rear of the Home Signal to which it applies - i.e somewhere in next door's railway room, not yours .

 

As Tony has indicated the situation with short sections could be very different in terms of what you could see when 'boxes were close together and then lower arm inner distants (the innermost of several potentially, and mounted below the stop signals of the signalbox in rear) could be little more than a train length in rear of the Home Signal to which they applied.

 

But there were some oddities (bound to be of course) thus on some parts of the Southern Division of the LNER you could find a distant signal for the signal box in advance barely a train length in advance of the section signal (last stop signal - controls entrance to the block section) of a signalbox; excellent example at one time in the vicinity of Ipswich.

 

Far more important than distant signal in my view is getting the stop signals right and then properly responding to them.  So for example if a semaphore stop signal is at danger the Driver of a train approaching will expect it to be at danger and will reduce speed in plenty of time to draw slowly towards it in the faint hope that it might clear or - perhaps more likely - that he will have to stop at it without upsetting service in the dining car or decanting luggage rack contents onto their owners.  Trains should not coming screeching to a halt from speed as if the Driver was surprised to find the signal at danger - that would only happen if the signal was thrown back in his face.  So if you're going to follow Tony's ideal and make them work use them properly.

[Headstock]

Thanks Andrew,

 

The curve appears to be very tight, but it could be the foreshortening in the picture of the splitting signals. 

 

I haven't seen Leicester South since its embryonic days, but do the signals work? Unless I'm missing something I can't see any operating wires, and cranks to the top bracket. Forgive my zeal, but non-working semaphore signals are something I find hard to reconcile on a model railway, especially an exhibition one. I can understand their being temporarily put in place on a layout under construction, but any 'suspension of disbelief' disappears with 'fixed' signals in my view. 

The operating wires are in place and so are the mechanism but our signal guy is very slow, so not working yet. I'm afraid that it is a symptome of a general trend, with old age creeping on, the passing away of people, it's becoming harder to keep Leicester on the exhibition circuit. We are currently short of operators and thus humpers, so we have to rely on what we can get. For example at ally pally last year out of eight operators I was the only one present with any experiance with kit built locomotives and only three others were part of the original construction team. What my future in the hobby is I don't no, I do feel that building things in 00 is being squeezed out by the RTR chaps on one hand and the EM gauge crowd on the other, If Leicester ends, I would like to do another layout but the opportunity to do so may be dwindling. Maybe I should invest in some Hornby stuff and go DCC, or there is always a return to ship building.

[Barry Ten]

The operating wires are in place and so are the mechanism but our signal guy is very slow, so not working yet. I'm afraid that it is a symptome of a general trend, with old age creeping on, the passing away of people, it's becoming harder to keep Leicester on the exhibition circuit.

 

 

Easy for me to say, but I hope you manage to do so, because it's an enthralling layout and on the one occasion when I saw it there was non-stop action.

[Willie Whizz]

The operating wires are in place and so are the mechanism but our signal guy is very slow, so not working yet. I'm afraid that it is a symptome of a general trend, with old age creeping on, the passing away of people, it's becoming harder to keep Leicester on the exhibition circuit. We are currently short of operators and thus humpers, so we have to rely on what we can get. For example at ally pally last year out of eight operators I was the only one present with any experiance with kit built locomotives and only three others were part of the original construction team. What my future in the hobby is I don't no, I do feel that building things in 00 is being squeezed out by the RTR chaps on one hand and the EM gauge crowd on the other, If Leicester ends, I would like to do another layout but the opportunity to do so may be dwindling. Maybe I should invest in some Hornby stuff and go DCC, or there is always a return to ship building.

 

Oh dear, it would be very sad indeed if Leicester South Goods could no longer be seen.  Being born and living a little further up the London Extension I never knew the original close-to as a lad, but I find it wonderfully evocative of the GC as I knew it - as the old model railway truism has it, you can instantly tell what line you're on without so much as seeing a train.  Indeed a friend of mine (sadly deceased this year) who did grow-up in the area in the late 50s/early 60s, and did a lot of his spotting around it, literally had tears in his eyes when he first saw the layout at an exhibition last year; so many memories did it bring back.

 

The trains themselves do appear spot-on, of course, and those working wagon turntables are quite amazing to watch.  I'll gladly admit that the semaphore signals not working as yet barely registered with us, but that in itself may be indicative of sufficient atmosphere; the only thing we felt at all lacking was that there didn't seem to be many figures populating the scenery - railway or 'civilian'.  Sometimes that can be way overdone, of course, but in this case it was if anything the other way; a bit "Sunday morning quiet".  But no doubt all this can come in time if the building and operating crew are spared and don't lose their health or their mojos.

 

The published articles have been inspirational, and certainly if I can make my own GC  efforts just getting properly under way even half as good as yours, I'll call myself a modeller.  I hope you can keep up the good work.

[APOLLO]

A source for tapered posts for Signals suitable for both OO & O signals is in your Chinese (or perhaps any) supermarket.

 

Chopsticks.  Some are wood, some are a hard plastic. There are many styles / types. Go for the cheaper undecorated ones. The plastic ones are easy to cut / sand & drill.

 

Brit15

[coachmann]

'Critical Error' on the PC all afternoon, so I have probably missed the boat on telephoto images. The Duke image was taken on something akin to a 100mm focal length lens on 35mm format, which is what I used when I was a regular contributor to the railway press. The train is a West of England summer-dated excursion composed of ex GWR stock arriving in Greenfield at sun set......

 

The 7P shot was rather extreme shot on the equivalent of a 500mm lens on 35mm format....

 

Incidentally, the aperture on the cheapo 18-55 zoom on my Canon will stop down to f22 @ wide angle and F36 at 55mm.

Edited November 24, 2015 by coachmann

[5050]

No 'W' in Lodekka!  I used to get off and catch the return bus at that stop in Lower Bridge St. when I went to Chester with my Mum as a youngster and in later years to visit the model shop.  I seem to remember that the route was Llangollen - Chester - isn't the D1 route number for this route? We could catch this bus just down the road from our house and not have to change in King St. bus station in Wrexham.  The route into Chester turned right not far after the barracks and went down a very narrow street - I think! - and left up Lower Bridge St. returning with a left turn at the top back to Wrexham.

 

No idea about the Manor Tony, sorry!  Unless it's waiting to go onto the ex-LMS shed rather than the GW one?

[Tony Wright]

The operating wires are in place and so are the mechanism but our signal guy is very slow, so not working yet. I'm afraid that it is a symptome of a general trend, with old age creeping on, the passing away of people, it's becoming harder to keep Leicester on the exhibition circuit. We are currently short of operators and thus humpers, so we have to rely on what we can get. For example at ally pally last year out of eight operators I was the only one present with any experiance with kit built locomotives and only three others were part of the original construction team. What my future in the hobby is I don't no, I do feel that building things in 00 is being squeezed out by the RTR chaps on one hand and the EM gauge crowd on the other, If Leicester ends, I would like to do another layout but the opportunity to do so may be dwindling. Maybe I should invest in some Hornby stuff and go DCC, or there is always a return to ship building.

The guys who built Leicester South have a fantastic pedigree in this hobby. Evercreech Junction and Tebay preceded it, but it seems that the same core members of the Shipley Club who've built Leicester South also built the forerunners. But, over how many years? Years in which everyone has got older, and can no longer hump massive layouts into venues or back into clubrooms at the end of an arduous, though enjoyable weekend.

 

May I draw a parallel, please? 40 years ago, members of Wolverhampton MRC built Fordley Park. Though not to Evercreech's standard, it featured kit/scratch-built stock a-plenty. Some of those who built it have now died. Leighford followed (when in doubt add weight!) which wasn't really all that good, then Stoke Summit, then Charwelton. Would it surprise anyone to know that it was the same core members who built all those? That same core is now all-retired, and is building no more large exhibition layouts - too old or not even now alive! There is no group in WMRC following on. 

 

Shipley and Wolverhampton were not alone in building a succession of successful, large exhibition layouts. Manchester also springs to mind, and there are many others. Let's hope that a new generation of young (and fit) modellers are producing such equivalents now. 

[Herbert Nigel]

The "Grantham" team fit that bill perhaps?

[Headstock]

Easy for me to say, but I hope you manage to do so, because it's an enthralling layout and on the one occasion when I saw it there was non-stop action.

 

Oh dear, it would be very sad indeed if Leicester South Goods could no longer be seen.  Being born and living a little further up the London Extension I never knew the original close-to as a lad, but I find it wonderfully evocative of the GC as I knew it - as the old model railway truism has it, you can instantly tell what line you're on without so much as seeing a train.  Indeed a friend of mine (sadly deceased this year) who did grow-up in the area in the late 50s/early 60s, and did a lot of his spotting around it, literally had tears in his eyes when he first saw the layout at an exhibition last year; so many memories did it bring back.

 

The trains themselves do appear spot-on, of course, and those working wagon turntables are quite amazing to watch.  I'll gladly admit that the semaphore signals not working as yet barely registered with us, but that in itself may be indicative of sufficient atmosphere; the only thing we felt at all lacking was that there didn't seem to be many figures populating the scenery - railway or 'civilian'.  Sometimes that can be way overdone, of course, but in this case it was if anything the other way; a bit "Sunday morning quiet".  But no doubt all this can come in time if the building and operating crew are spared and don't lose their health or their mojos.

 

The published articles have been inspirational, and certainly if I can make my own GC  efforts just getting properly under way even half as good as yours, I'll call myself a modeller.  I hope you can keep up the good work.

Thank you very much for your comments, believe me, when your on your fith trip up three flights of stairs with a four by four baseboard, it means a lot.

 

I'm sorry to here about the loss of your friend, I bet he had some tales to tell. One of the most enjoyable aspects of exhibiting is hearing the comments from people, especialy those who lived or worked in the area. I Think half the population of England must have lived in the terraces by Uperton Road bridge. I agree with your comments as regards the lack of people, it's a scenic thing, aparently.  Although I suspect there are more then you would think.

 

Do not fear the layout is not dead yet, we still have to get the signals working before Tony catches on.

[Tony Wright]

No 'W' in Lodekka!  I used to get off and catch the return bus at that stop in Lower Bridge St. when I went to Chester with my Mum as a youngster and in later years to visit the model shop.  I seem to remember that the route was Llangollen - Chester - isn't the D1 route number for this route? We could catch this bus just down the road from our house and not have to change in King St. bus station in Wrexham.  The route into Chester turned right not far after the barracks and went down a very narrow street - I think! - and left up Lower Bridge St. returning with a left turn at the top back to Wrexham.

 

No idea about the Manor Tony, sorry!  Unless it's waiting to go onto the ex-LMS shed rather than the GW one?

Many thanks,

 

The Crosville buses from N. Wales turned down Castle Street, before turning left into Lower Bridge Street, then left back at the top. Unlike the Corporation buses, they never used the Old Dee Bridge to get into Bridge Street, always using the Grosvenor Bridge to cross the river.

[Headstock]

The guys who built Leicester South have a fantastic pedigree in this hobby. Evercreech Junction and Tebay preceded it, but it seems that the same core members of the Shipley Club who've built Leicester South also built the forerunners. But, over how many years? Years in which everyone has got older, and can no longer hump massive layouts into venues or back into clubrooms at the end of an arduous, though enjoyable weekend.

 

May I draw a parallel, please? 40 years ago, members of Wolverhampton MRC built Fordley Park. Though not to Evercreech's standard, it featured kit/scratch-built stock a-plenty. Some of those who built it have now died. Leighford followed (when in doubt add weight!) which wasn't really all that good, then Stoke Summit, then Charwelton. Would it surprise anyone to know that it was the same core members who built all those? That same core is now all-retired, and is building no more large exhibition layouts - too old or not even now alive! There is no group in WMRC following on. 

 

Shipley and Wolverhampton were not alone in building a succession of successful, large exhibition layouts. Manchester also springs to mind, and there are many others. Let's hope that a new generation of young (and fit) modellers are producing such equivalents now. 

I'm pretty certain that I was young when I started on Leicester, the club is very healthy in terms of up coming layouts but Leicester will be the last large oo layout that relies on the old kit building skills.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Headstock

[great central]

As Tony has indicated the situation with short sections could be very different in terms of what you could see when 'boxes were close together and then lower arm inner distants (the innermost of several potentially, and mounted below the stop signals of the signalbox in rear) could be little more than a train length in rear of the Home Signal to which they applied.

 

But there were some oddities (bound to be of course) thus on some parts of the Southern Division of the LNER you could find a distant signal for the signal box in advance barely a train length in advance of the section signal (last stop signal - controls entrance to the block section) of a signalbox; excellent example at one time in the vicinity of Ipswich.

 

 

 

A modern(ish) oddity I can't understand is at Manchester Oxford Road. Certainly platforms 3 and 4, can't be sure about 2 never having arrived in there from the Liverpool direction, have two lots of 4 aspect signals. (There is only the single signal on each platform heading the other way). One is, obviously, at the platform end, the other little more than a loco length in rear. It's a real pain when we follow another train in closely, our 4 car set doesn't all fit in the platform until the first signal has cleared. The next signal in rear is at Deansgate. 

[coachmann]

Re the GWR shed a Chester, it was taken over by the LM Region in 1958 and closed to steam in 1960. Thereafter ex GW locos were serviced at Mold Junction and the LM shed east of the station. I remember passing a 14XX en route to Mold Junction as well as various 4-6-0s at various times in the early 1960's. MJ shed closed in 1964.

[5050]

I'm pretty certain that I was young when I started on Leicester, the club is very healthy in terms of up coming layouts but Leicester will be the last large oo layout that relies on the old kit building skills.

Lot of kit building skills required for 'Clayton' - but that's EM of course!

[Headstock]

It will be ineresting to see what the modelling landscape will look like in ten years time.

[Headstock]

Sorry part of my post went ga ga the first part should read.

 

I am not involved with Clayton, so I don't know lots about it but the standard of modelling should be first rate. They have certainly been very helpful to the Leicester team. I wonder if the future of kit building will be with EM gauge. I do find Grantham a very interesting project and definitley one to watch.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Headstock

[polybear]

Brian,

 

The original DJH kit for an A1 covered all the Doncaster-built examples with the exception of Nos. 60153-57, which had roller bearings (round keeps to the axle boxes of the Cartazzi truck and tender, and only one mechanical lubricator). It thus had a riveted cab and tender body. The firm also provided a flush cab and flush tender for those Darlington-built examples (was this kit 31?). Both Dia. 117 and 118 boilers can be represented - the Thompson one (Dia. 117) having the dome placed further forward. The unique round dome carried by  FLAMBOYANT was also supplied. 

 

As for the A3, DJH did two kits for that. One with a GN tender and the other which (I think) provided three separate tender bodies for those who wished to represent a new-type non-corridor tender, 1928-style corridor tender or streamlined non-corridor tender. Perusal of the RCTS or Yeadon will give you chapter and verse as to which locos towed which style of tender at different times. Some only ever had one type, whist others swopped from time to time. At least six towed the ex-A4 type tender, including (off the top of my head), DIAMOND JUBILEE, BLAIR ATHOL, SIR VISTO, TRIGO, FLAMINGO and FLYING SCOTSMAN. The GN tender does not cover every variant (those with the filled in bit of the coal rails beyond the coal space), but the front plate can be fixed at an angle or vertical.  

The kit does not cater for those locos latterly fitted with an A4 boiler (Dia. 107), but covers both Dia. 94HP (round dome) and 94A (banjo, later streamlined dome) - both the RCTS and Peter Coster get muddled up with these. The 94HP dome was on the second ring and the 94A dome between the third and fourth. As far as I know the A1-style smoke deflectors for HUMORIST were not supplied, but the little smokebox wings for HUMORIST (LNER days), DONCASTER, WOOLWINDER, PRETTY POLLY and ST SIMON were. 

 

I hope this helps. 

Hi Tony,

 

Whilst I ticked the "Thanks" icon following your reply, it has been bothering me ever since that it does feel very impersonal and well, frankly not even close to the thanks your excellent response to my question deserves.  So:

 

Many thanks Tony! 

 

Brian

[The Stationmaster]

A modern(ish) oddity I can't understand is at Manchester Oxford Road. Certainly platforms 3 and 4, can't be sure about 2 never having arrived in there from the Liverpool direction, have two lots of 4 aspect signals. (There is only the single signal on each platform heading the other way). One is, obviously, at the platform end, the other little more than a loco length in rear. It's a real pain when we follow another train in closely, our 4 car set doesn't all fit in the platform until the first signal has cleared. The next signal in rear is at Deansgate. 

I think they might be co-acting signals (modern version) for sighting reasons - an easy way to tell is to look at the numbers on the ID plates and see if there are any suffix letters on the plates on one or both signals.

[Barry O]

It is interesting that after giving Chapel en le Frith a run out at our show in Leeds various additional kit built locos are being built/reworked for future shows. Why? Pulling power and last ability.

 

We have noted that moving layouts down 4 flights of fire escape is hard so we have light but strong baseboards, and the scenery will be similar.

 

The day of the large club exhibition layout has not gone...yet..but it is becoming harder to find willing helpers to build and move layouts.

 

Baz

[LNER4479]

Thanks for the mentions guys.

 

For what its worth, Grantham is a private (ie not club) project which was started by myself nine years ago now. Because of the phase of life I was going through, a transportable layout fitted the bill and I was convinced that using proprietary track (ie Peco) was a viable proposition to make the project achievable. But, until I ventured into the world of RMWeb some three-and-a-bit years ago, it was almost entirely a solo project. Thereafter the project has been its own best advert and seems to have 'touched a nerve' in terms of the present team of collaborators. For all their various contributions I am deeply grateful (and continually humbled).

 

I think everything has its time and place - it's 'moment in the sun' if you like - and, god-willing (and I think it always worth adding that proviso!), our time is now and we can anticipate an exhibition life going forward over the next 5-10 years (assuming exhibition managers want us!). Certainly, there's 'expressions of interest' stretching to 2019 at the present time. 

 

Not wishing to make any particular points with the above - I guess all projects have their own individual profile - but the RMWeb angle is an interesting one. I guess Black Country Blues is another example of a project (albeit a very different one!) of this genre. Do all of us on here constitute a virtual model railway club, capable of building the (larger?) exhibition layouts of the future, I wonder?

Edited November 25, 2015 by LNER4479

[2ManySpams]

Reading through lots of layout threads it has struck me how many of the private projects have benefited from freely offered contributions from other modellers. There's a tremendous amount of good will and kindness on this forum and it's heartening to see so many examples of people giving their time and skills to help others out.

 

This isn't just advice but I've seen stock, buildings, structures and even spare boards donated. Black Country Blues is just one example of this but there are many others. I believe there is a growing trend towards 'crowd sourced' privately owned layouts.

 

The forum does allow like-minded folk who would have never previously have met to share and collaborate. In my own case there's Peter in Brazil with whom I'm frequently in contact and swapping information on our common interest - Bodmin North. The club environment is changing but that doesn't mean that model railways are dying.

[coachmann]

Reading through lots of layout threads it has struck me how many of the private projects have benefited from freely offered contributions from other modellers. There's a tremendous amount of good will and kindness on this forum and it's heartening to see so many examples of people giving their time and skills to help others out. This isn't just advice but I've seen stock, buildings, structures and even spare boards donated. Black Country Blues is just one example of this but there are many others.

 

I believe there is a growing trend towards 'crowd sourced' privately owned layouts. The forum does allow like-minded folk who would have never previously have met to share and collaborate. In my own case there's Peter in Brazil with whom I'm frequently in contact and swapping information on our common interest - Bodmin North. The club environment is changing but that doesn't mean that model railways are dying.

I was only thinking the same the other day. Toleration has replaced trolls.