Wright writes.....

[Dunsignalling]

On 24/07/2024 at 22:28, t-b-g said:

The HSTs have undoubtedly been the great success story of our railways, along with some abroad, for many years.

 

In terms of mileages and efficiency, they are the winners hands down.

 

In terms of the emotional response they elicited in this young trainspotter when they came out, I hated them. They replaced my beloved Deltics and turned a huge proportion of ECML services into a boring procession where every express train looked the same. We used to get a few different classes of loco and a big variety of coaching stock and train lengths. All the variation in train make up vanished. My enthusiasm for real railways never recovered from the shock!

 

When the Deltics were being withdrawn, I travelled many miles to see them and catch their final days. When the HSTs disappeared off the ECML I couldn't have cared less.

 

So it all depends on how you measure greatness. Is it purely in the best numbers, or the most reliable, or the one that makes the most money, or does the emotional side of things come into play?

 

All of those things, but to different people. 

 

In purely commercial terms, the vehicle that contributed most to the bottom line, since the first railway was laid, was probably the humble coal wagon. 

 

Many of the things we enthusiasts most worship were tolerated for prestige reasons rather than the nett contribution they made to the railway's coffers.

 

Taking the Deltic example. They were, at the time, the only route to the single-unit 3000hp+ diesel the ECML demanded. Intensive and expensive maintenance was tolerated, but only until the HST came along offering greater speed, with budgeting predictability. Plus, of course, the HST included a serious upgrade to bit the passenger sat in. 

Edited July 26 by Dunsignalling

[t-b-g]

36 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

All of those things, but to different people. 

 

In purely commercial terms, the vehicle that contributed most to the bottom line, since the first railway was laid, was probably the humble coal wagon. 

 

Many of the things we enthusiasts most worship were tolerated for prestige reasons rather than the nett contribution they made to the railway's coffers.

 

Taking the Deltic example. They were, at the time, the only route to the single-unit 3000hp+ diesel the ECML demanded. Intensive and expensive maintenance was tolerated, but only until the HST came along offering greater speed, with budgeting predictability. Plus, of course, the HST included a serious upgrade to bit the passenger sat in. 

 

Yet give me a choice of a ride to Kings Cross in an HST at 125mph or a charge up the ECML in a corridor Mk1 at 90mph behind a Deltic and I would only ever choose the latter. I would try to ride in the front carriage, often in the end vestibule next to the loco with the window open.

 

I was really just querying the validity of declaring anything to be "the greatest". I see it in many threads on here and in all other walks of life, when people declare this that or the other person, train or anything being "the greatest".

 

As there is no agreed way of measuring "greatness" it really has little meaning. It is much more down to which is your own personal favourite.

When they have polls and TV programmes counting down the 100 greatest whatever, it is really more about the 100 most popular.

 

Even in things like athletics, where a performance can often be measured, is a one off fastest performance better than somebody who has done really well over a long career? In football, people debate forever over who is or was the best player of all time.

 

To me, greatness is not about productivity, reliability or cost effectiveness. It is about those magical sights and sounds that live in the memory forever.

 

 

 

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

As a small child I clearly remember the Blue Pullman accelerating through Sydney Gardens in Bath, on its way to London. I found the presence of a noisy power car at the rear very unsettling!

 

[Tony Teague]

5 hours ago, C.A.T.Ford said:

One of three by Richard Maunsell.

 

CAT

 

yes, and produced from a fairly poor kit (in my view!) by Golden Arrow models, another 'obscure' model by an obscure but still extant outfit; I have one:

 

 

It has a resin body sitting on a Bachmann class 08 chassis.

 

Tony

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

Yet give me a choice of a ride to Kings Cross in an HST at 125mph or a charge up the ECML in a corridor Mk1 at 90mph behind a Deltic and I would only ever choose the latter. I would try to ride in the front carriage, often in the end vestibule next to the loco with the window open.

 

I was really just querying the validity of declaring anything to be "the greatest". I see it in many threads on here and in all other walks of life, when people declare this that or the other person, train or anything being "the greatest".

 

As there is no agreed way of measuring "greatness" it really has little meaning. It is much more down to which is your own personal favourite.

When they have polls and TV programmes counting down the 100 greatest whatever, it is really more about the 100 most popular.

 

Even in things like athletics, where a performance can often be measured, is a one off fastest performance better than somebody who has done really well over a long career? In football, people debate forever over who is or was the best player of all time.

 

To me, greatness is not about productivity, reliability or cost effectiveness. It is about those magical sights and sounds that live in the memory forever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's clear that both the Deltic and the HST are "the greatest" in their respective categories, simply because there will be nothing to follow either of them.

 

However, what the enthusiast desires, and what the railway needs, seldom coincide, the former generally being what the latter judges to be in need of replacement!

 

Whilst I appreciated riding behind Deltics for pleasure, I rode HSTs for business, which is what they were intended for; arriving fresh, calm, and often early, for meetings. I remember one trip leaving Taunton at about 1100, and with fortuitous tube connections, being in my Peterborough hotel three and a half hours later. HST on both legs because I arrived KX in time for the service before my planned electric one, and, two hours less than it had taken by Jaguar the previous week!

 

Replacing the Deltics was incidental to the programme; BR's need for the HST was system-wide, and the cost of keeping the ageing Deltics delivering the required performance was only going one way.

 

I'd have loved some Southern Deltics as the diesel replacement for my personal greatest steam locos, the masterful Rebuilt Merchant Navies, but regional changes ensured that could never happen. 

 

[Tony Wright]

Geoff Haynes popped round this morning, bringing with him...............

 

 

 

This splendid little SEF 'Buckjumper' in EM, which he completed and painted for a customer.

 

 

[Chuffer Davies]

The latest model to be completed for the Clayton (EM) layout is this model of an LNER Q1, nicknamed the 'Long Tom'.  The model was built from etches I designed by Chris Rogers, one of the Clayton team.  This was the first model built from these etches and proved that they went together okay.  Due to pressure of a young family and a change of career Chris had to stop modelling for a period and the Q1 remained unfinished until I offered to complete it.  My contribution was to convert the model to MIT (motor in tender) drive essential for the Clayton project, and to build and fit the cosmetic inside valve gear so necessary in the very visible void between the frames. 

 

Ian Rathbone painted and lined the model which has really lifted it to another level. 

 

For those who like to know the technical specification this model has Gibson friction fit wheels, and American pickup using the drawbar to transfer the current from the locomotive to the motor in the tender.  The loco and tender are sprung using CSB (continuous springy beams).  The motor is the High Level 1320 coreless, and the gearbox in the loco is the High Level Roadrunner (40/1 ratio) but the shaft carrying the worm gear runs in ball races mounted in a bespoke gearbox frame.     

 

 

 

The etches have now been made available to London Road Models who have added this model to their product range.  This model, as well as several others shown on WW previously, will be running on the Clayton layout which will be exhibited as a layout under construction at Expo EM Summer (17/18 August) at the Baildon Recreation Centre in Shipley West Yorkshire.  If any of you happen to be attending the show please come and say hello.

 

Frank

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Rather a different model from the J69 was brought along this afternoon by one of my visitors............

 

 

I'm informed that this Tri-ang Battle Space Turbo Car, in good condition, is now quite valuable. 

 

 

It's certainly a first on Bytham (I wonder how many times it's been parked on the same siding as the e-NER Dynamometer Car?).

 

Its coarse wheels/flanges meant it wouldn't pass through the scenic-side points - it just bounced over them, though no damage was done.

 

 

I can't find this in my Ian Allan abc! Is it a 'cop' then?

 

Great fun. Thanks for bringing it, Bob.

 

 

Edited July 26 by Tony Wright
to add something

[2750Papyrus]

The last two posts illustrate how broad the railway modelling church is - from the beautifully engineered Long Tom to a Triang battle Space car! 

 

Wonderful - long may it continue.

[Buhar]

And the Battle Space Car was displaying express passenger lamps, so all's well at Little Blytham.

 

Alan 

[SM42]

On 24/07/2024 at 23:57, Northmoor said:

 

I would suggest that "greatness" is best measured by the response of everyone EXCEPT railway enthusiasts.

 

In the latter half of the 80s, there was a summer service operated by a 125 from Penzance to Elgin; I think the balancing service ran from Aberdeen.  No doubt the guard enjoyed reading out the calling points after every station early on in the journey; I think it stopped about eight times in Cornwall alone.  By way of contrast, the Pembrokeshire - London services provided some highlights; the 1730 off Paddington through to Milford Haven was non-stop to Bristol Parkway and that leg was the fastest scheduled diesel service in the world.  The "Hibernian" - the afternoon Fishguard Harbour - Paddington in the late 80s - stopped only at Llanelli, Cardiff and Paddington in just over 220 minutes for about 275 miles.  Not especially fast, but it couldn't do 100mph until East of Cardiff......

 

The Aberdeen - Penzance service was certainly one of the longest. 

 

Whilst the crew changed en route, but the bun truck staff didn't. 

 

Something like a 14 hour turn in latter years with a lodge. 

 

Not sure if it still runs, ( I've lost touch a bit with the modern railway) but with a Voyager.

 

If it does they should hand out medals to any passenger making the whole journey.

 

Andy

[Coach bogie]

13 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

The Aberdeen - Penzance service was certainly one of the longest. 

 

Whilst the crew changed en route, but the bun truck staff didn't. 

 

Something like a 14 hour turn in latter years with a lodge. 

 

Not sure if it still runs, ( I've lost touch a bit with the modern railway) but with a Voyager.

 

If it does they should hand out medals to any passenger making the whole journey.

 

Andy

I lived in Aberdeen for a couple of years and often, the return journey did not make it to Aberdeen, being terminated at Dundee (staff hours I was told at the time) due to late running and passengers put on a Scotrail service to complete their journey.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Buhar said:

And the Battle Space Car was displaying express passenger lamps, so all's well at Little Blytham.

 

Alan 

Good morning Alan,

 

It's an extraordinary thing - incredibly fast, both in forward and reverse, but with (literally) no brakes! From near flat out (in one of the through sidings in the fiddle yard), cutting the power just resulted in it rolling for over 20 ft before it came to a standstill. It would appear that the only way to halt it quickly is to reverse the current, though that can't be good for the motor. 

 

I believe the one I drove has a rigid plastic nose, which could do considerable damage (Imagine a kid getting his eye down to track level in the four foot!); later ones had a 'bendy' rubber one. 

 

What might its wheel arrangement be? 0-2-2-0? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry O]

14 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Alan,

 

It's an extraordinary thing - incredibly fast, both in forward and reverse, but with (literally) no brakes! From near flat out (in one of the through sidings in the fiddle yard), cutting the power just resulted in it rolling for over 20 ft before it came to a standstill. It would appear that the only way to halt it quickly is to reverse the current, though that can't be good for the motor. 

 

I believe the one I drove has a rigid plastic nose, which could do considerable damage (Imagine a kid getting his eye down to track level in the four foot!); later ones had a 'bendy' rubber one. 

 

What might its wheel arrangement be? 0-2-2-0? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Lathe turn the wheels down and the Turbo Car can easily travel around layouts with finer scale points. It can get around Shap and my home layout easily but you need to be careful to reduce power before going around bends.. in an emergency just change the power to reverse thrust...

 

Baz

Edited July 27 by Barry O
Spellung

[Dunsignalling]

17 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Alan,

 

It's an extraordinary thing - incredibly fast, both in forward and reverse, but with (literally) no brakes! From near flat out (in one of the through sidings in the fiddle yard), cutting the power just resulted in it rolling for over 20 ft before it came to a standstill. It would appear that the only way to halt it quickly is to reverse the current, though that can't be good for the motor. 

 

I believe the one I drove has a rigid plastic nose, which could do considerable damage (Imagine a kid getting his eye down to track level in the four foot!); later ones had a 'bendy' rubber one. 

 

What might its wheel arrangement be? 0-2-2-0? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Given that none of the wheels are powered, I reckon it should be "4" under Whyte, or "2" under Continental notation!

[richard i]

11 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I think it's clear that both the Deltic and the HST are "the greatest" in their respective categories, simply because there will be nothing to follow either of them.

The pinnacle perhaps then.

richard 

[Dunsignalling]

7 minutes ago, richard i said:

The pinnacle perhaps then.

richard 

Certainly in the case of the Deltic as, thinking about it, there has been a more recent 3000hp+ express passenger diesel;  the Class 67.

 

Also, of course there are Voyagers and Class 180 units, that (sort-of) fall into the HST's niche, but I can't see there ever being another straight diesel "twin-power-car" fast passenger train.

Edited July 27 by Dunsignalling

[Izzy]

33 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Alan,

 

It's an extraordinary thing - incredibly fast, both in forward and reverse, but with (literally) no brakes! From near flat out (in one of the through sidings in the fiddle yard), cutting the power just resulted in it rolling for over 20 ft before it came to a standstill. It would appear that the only way to halt it quickly is to reverse the current, though that can't be good for the motor. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

That kind of reminds me of the time my wife & I rode the mag-lev in Shanghai to the airport. 19 miles in around 8 minutes. By the time it wound itself up to the 430kmph/270mph it was time to slow down for the airport! Very surreal. Like being in a futuristic space movie, the surroundings etc.  Hornby were ahead of the game back then it seems…..

 

Bob

[St Enodoc]

33 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Given that none of the wheels are powered, I reckon it should be "4" under Whyte, or "2" under Continental notation!

If this has whetted anyone's appetite, there's one on that auction site at the moment:

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/226250752824

 

no connection.

[St Enodoc]

13 minutes ago, Izzy said:

That kind of reminds me of the time my wife & I rode the mag-lev in Shanghai to the airport. 19 miles in around 8 minutes. By the time it wound itself up to the 430kmph/270mph it was time to slow down for the airport! Very surreal. Like being in a futuristic space movie, the surroundings etc.  Hornby were ahead of the game back then it seems…..

 

Bob

I used the Maglev a couple of times. I realised that it was nothing more than a fairground ride when a) it took half an hour to get to the "city" terminus and b) the ride itself took less time than the walk from the Maglev station to the airport terminal. Good fun to be able to say you've travelled that fast, though.

[Captain Kernow]

1 hour ago, Barry O said:

in an emergency just change the power to reverse thrust...

...and on no account bring the warp core on-line!

 

[Bucoops]

1 minute ago, Captain Kernow said:

...and on no account bring the warp core on-line!

 

 

aka leave it in direct sunlight?

[Clive Mortimore]

15 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

 

yes, and produced from a fairly poor kit (in my view!) by Golden Arrow models, another 'obscure' model by an obscure but still extant outfit; I have one:

 

 

It has a resin body sitting on a Bachmann class 08 chassis.

 

Tony

The crews are still blacking her until someone fits the hand rails on.

 

Plastic card on a Hornby Doublo chassis.

 

The little men are scratchbuilt from Milliput. The bike is RTR by Peco.

[Keith Turbutt]

15 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Geoff Haynes popped round this morning, bringing with him...............

 

 

 

This splendid little SEF 'Buckjumper' in EM, which he completed and painted for a customer.

 

 

Nicely modelled and painted but I think the sandboxes should be longer and nearer to the front of the smoke box ?

Is the RHS one further forward?

Edited July 27 by Keith Turbutt
Sandboxes plural

[MJI]

16 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I think it's clear that both the Deltic and the HST are "the greatest" in their respective categories, simply because there will be nothing to follow either of them.

 

However, what the enthusiast desires, and what the railway needs, seldom coincide, the former generally being what the latter judges to be in need of replacement!

 

Whilst I appreciated riding behind Deltics for pleasure, I rode HSTs for business, which is what they were intended for; arriving fresh, calm, and often early, for meetings. I remember one trip leaving Taunton at about 1100, and with fortuitous tube connections, being in my Peterborough hotel three and a half hours later. HST on both legs because I arrived KX in time for the service before my planned electric one, and, two hours less than it had taken by Jaguar the previous week!

 

Replacing the Deltics was incidental to the programme; BR's need for the HST was system-wide, and the cost of keeping the ageing Deltics delivering the required performance was only going one way.

 

I'd have loved some Southern Deltics as the diesel replacement for my personal greatest steam locos, the masterful Rebuilt Merchant Navies, but regional changes ensured that could never happen. 

 

The southern regoons premier traction was a 4 car EMU, which is on my sadly not travelled in list.