Wright writes.....

[Keith Turbutt]

Good morning Tony,

Re the comparison of your SEF and DJH A3s both are lovely models.

However, if one has to be critical I would suggest that the cab windows are better represented on the DJH build. No doubt because of the brass sides allowing better definition and enabling the windows to be nearer to the top - probably more difficult on a casting.

The only other comment, this time in favour of the SEF model, the firebox sloping back down towards the cab appears better. I'm not sure if this is due to slightly different camera angle.

 

 

[Keith Turbutt]

Just a question now. The raised cab ventilators appear to be the same. On the original Wills kit this was rather higher.  I think this kit represented a Gresley A1?

Did SEF change this when the kit was retooled.

I think the higher ventilator only applied to two A3s - only one cab but swapped between locos. The RCTS green bible makes some mention of this.

[APOLLO]

City of London in half BR half LMS guise northbound passing the Gasworks and entering Wigan NW station, 1948, courtesy of Wigan World website. Photo taken by the late Tommy Banks.

 

 

Brit15

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Tony, do you use normal or low melting point solder to fix the nut to the casting please?

[46444]

Hello Tony,

 

A good friend of mine purchased this O Gauge Connoisseur Models J71, ready built from the Kettering O Gauge show.

 

 

It looks as if it has been built very nicely.

 

He has asked me to look at it for him because it has developed a problem when running bunker first. Apparently, when he first purchased it ran well in both directions.

 

Removing the chassis revealed a very 

cleanly soldered body.

 

 

Looking at at Jim McGeown's instructions he recommends a Mashima 1830 with his 40:1 gear set.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco Kit Pages/J71 Class LNER.html

 

Having no O Gauge track to hand made examination difficult. The middle wheelset is compensated with drive to the rear axle.

 

 

I have noted the following:

 

The gears are engaged in forward motion, but sometimes the chassis can be moved backwards with the gears not engaging with the worm .

 

The motor and gearbox rock, probably exacerbating the above. 

 

 

There is a piece of brass wire on the bottom of the gearbox which looks as if it has come unsoldered from the chassis.

 

It is in front of the worm in the picture below.

 

 

Does this need re-soldering into position to prevent the gearbox moving?

 

The only other thing I can think of if the gear set looks worn unevenly affecting the drive.

 

Not having a great deal of experience in these matters I would value your opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

 

[John Isherwood]

1 hour ago, APOLLO said:

City of London in half BR half LMS guise northbound passing the Gasworks and entering Wigan NW station, 1948, courtesy of Wigan World website. Photo taken by the late Tommy Banks.

 

 

Brit15

 

Quite possibly 'plum-and-spilt-milk' livery on the stock - viz. the absence of an eaves dark band.

 

CJI.

[polybear]

4 minutes ago, 46444 said:

Hello Tony,

 

A good friend of mine purchased this O Gauge Connoisseur Models J71, ready built from the Kettering O Gauge show.

 

 

It looks as if it has been built very nicely.

 

He has asked me to look at it for him because it has developed a problem when running bunker first. Apparently, when he first purchased it ran well in both directions.

 

Removing the chassis revealed a very 

cleanly soldered body.

 

 

Looking at at Jim McGeown's instructions he recommends a Mashima 1830 with his 40:1 gear set.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco Kit Pages/J71 Class LNER.html

 

Having no O Gauge track to hand made examination difficult. The middle wheelset is compensated with drive to the rear axle.

 

 

I have noted the following:

 

The gears are engaged in forward motion, but sometimes the chassis can be moved backwards with the gears not engaging with the worm .

 

The motor and gearbox rock, probably exacerbating the above. 

 

 

There is a piece of brass wire on the bottom of the gearbox which looks as if it has come unsoldered from the chassis.

 

It is in front of the worm in the picture below.

 

 

Does this need re-soldering into position to prevent the gearbox moving?

 

The only other thing I can think of if the gear set looks worn unevenly affecting the drive.

 

Not having a great deal of experience in these matters I would value your opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

 

 

I'm definitely no expert, but from what you describe I'd say that:

 

(a) Yes, that brass wire needs re-soldering - it sounds and looks like it's the gearbox stabilising link to stop the gearbox from rotating around the driven axle.

(b) The gears don't look very well aligned - see what you can do about re-positioning them (the driven axle gear should be able to be moved across the axle without too much difficulty - assuming the grub screw loosens easily, that is); also the holes in the gearbox used to secure the motor could be slotted slightly so you can move the motor to improve the engagement of the worm gear with the brass gear.  

(c) if the gears are very worn then consider replacing them; some lubrication would help as well.

 

HTH

Brian

[John Isherwood]

19 minutes ago, 46444 said:

The gears are engaged in forward motion, but sometimes the chassis can be moved backwards with the gears not engaging with the worm .

 

The motor and gearbox rock, probably exacerbating the above. 

 

 

There is a piece of brass wire on the bottom of the gearbox which looks as if it has come unsoldered from the chassis.

 

If the worm / wormwheel disengage in reverse, this almost certainly is the root cause of the problem.

 

SOMEWHERE, there is / are an oversize / worn bearing(s) that is/ are allowing the gear train to disengage.

 

Start with the axle bearings and check that there is no slop, only a working clearance.

 

Secondly, work through the gear train; again looking for excess play between the gear shafts and the gears or gearbox frame.

 

If oversize bores are discovered, strip down the drive and bush the offending bores with brass tube.

 

If I were building this kit, I would dispense with the equalisation; in order to work it needs some play in the bearings and this is often overdone - hence problems such as these.

 

As far as I can see, the wire is in a slot, and serves to prevent the gearbox / motor rotating; DON'T solder the joint, it should slide.

 

CJI.

Edited July 21 by cctransuk

[Chuffer Davies]

2 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

I'm definitely no expert, but from what you describe I'd say that:

 

(a) Yes, that brass wire needs re-soldering - it sounds and looks like it's the gearbox stabilising link to stop the gearbox from rotating around the driven axle.

(b) The gears don't look very well aligned - see what you can do about re-positioning them (the driven axle gear should be able to be moved across the axle without too much difficulty - assuming the grub screw loosens easily, that is); also the holes in the gearbox used to secure the motor could be slotted slightly so you can move the motor to improve the engagement of the worm gear with the brass gear.  

(c) if the gears are very worn then consider replacing them; some lubrication would help as well.

 

HTH

Brian

I’d concur with the advice given but would add that it would be worth checking that each pair of wheels is picking up current through 360 deg forwards and backwards.  
Frank

[polybear]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

As far as I can see, the wire is in a slot, and serves to prevent the gearbox / motor rotating; DON'T solder the joint, it should slide.

 

CJI.

 

Good point; I was assuming that the wire has come unsoldered at one (or both) ends, rather than where it passes through the gearbox.

[John Isherwood]

8 minutes ago, polybear said:

(a) Yes, that brass wire needs re-soldering - it sounds and looks like it's the gearbox stabilising link to stop the gearbox from rotating around the driven axle.

 

Are we looking at the same wire - the transverse one in the gearbox?

 

To me, it appears to be engaged in a slot, in order to allow some fore-and- aft motion (compensation) whilst preventing rotation.

 

CJI.

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Quite possibly 'plum-and-spilt-milk' livery on the stock - viz. the absence of an eaves dark band.

 

CJI.

I believe so and, not only that, but looks like it's The Royal Scot no less (LMR didn't tend to bother with headboards in the early years). There's a nice picture of the same working in 'Power of the Duchesses' (Plate 143), 46230 on Bushey troughs. I understand that this was one of the sets for which the experimental liveries were applied in 1948.

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Tony, do you use normal or low melting point solder to fix the nut to the casting please?

 

2 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Tony, do you use normal or low melting point solder to fix the nut to the casting please?

Good afternoon John,

 

I tin the brass nut with 145 solder, then solder it in place with low melt. It's usual, after this procedure, to tap the result 8BA.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, 46444 said:

Hello Tony,

 

A good friend of mine purchased this O Gauge Connoisseur Models J71, ready built from the Kettering O Gauge show.

 

 

It looks as if it has been built very nicely.

 

He has asked me to look at it for him because it has developed a problem when running bunker first. Apparently, when he first purchased it ran well in both directions.

 

Removing the chassis revealed a very 

cleanly soldered body.

 

 

Looking at at Jim McGeown's instructions he recommends a Mashima 1830 with his 40:1 gear set.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco Kit Pages/J71 Class LNER.html

 

Having no O Gauge track to hand made examination difficult. The middle wheelset is compensated with drive to the rear axle.

 

 

I have noted the following:

 

The gears are engaged in forward motion, but sometimes the chassis can be moved backwards with the gears not engaging with the worm .

 

The motor and gearbox rock, probably exacerbating the above. 

 

 

There is a piece of brass wire on the bottom of the gearbox which looks as if it has come unsoldered from the chassis.

 

It is in front of the worm in the picture below.

 

 

Does this need re-soldering into position to prevent the gearbox moving?

 

The only other thing I can think of if the gear set looks worn unevenly affecting the drive.

 

Not having a great deal of experience in these matters I would value your opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

 

 

The etch for Jim's gears is on the kit etches - someone has used a different one - is the original in the box? Jim sells his gears separately, I don;t know if he carries extra etches however. I think I would suggest getting new axle bushes and if possible Jim's worm and gear and etch and rebuilding it rigid.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

Good morning Tony,

Re the comparison of your SEF and DJH A3s both are lovely models.

However, if one has to be critical I would suggest that the cab windows are better represented on the DJH build. No doubt because of the brass sides allowing better definition and enabling the windows to be nearer to the top - probably more difficult on a casting.

The only other comment, this time in favour of the SEF model, the firebox sloping back down towards the cab appears better. I'm not sure if this is due to slightly different camera angle.

 

 

Good afternoon Keith,

 

You're right on both counts; the camera angles are virtually the same. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

Just a question now. The raised cab ventilators appear to be the same. On the original Wills kit this was rather higher.  I think this kit represented a Gresley A1?

Did SEF change this when the kit was retooled.

I think the higher ventilator only applied to two A3s - only one cab but swapped between locos. The RCTS green bible makes some mention of this.

From memory, I lowered the cab roof ventilator on the SEF version (a nice big file!). 

 

ST SIMON had the original high cab ventilator; later, it was fitted to MERRY HAMPTON's cab. 

 

Which begs the question, how much of any particular loco is original? 

 

For example, SIR NIGEL GRESLEY's drivers in preservation came from MILES BEEVOR (when both were at Crewe, 60026's were in better condition). Also, take a look at some of BRITANNIA's current motion; it's stamped 70006! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, 46444 said:

Hello Tony,

 

A good friend of mine purchased this O Gauge Connoisseur Models J71, ready built from the Kettering O Gauge show.

 

 

It looks as if it has been built very nicely.

 

He has asked me to look at it for him because it has developed a problem when running bunker first. Apparently, when he first purchased it ran well in both directions.

 

Removing the chassis revealed a very 

cleanly soldered body.

 

 

Looking at at Jim McGeown's instructions he recommends a Mashima 1830 with his 40:1 gear set.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco Kit Pages/J71 Class LNER.html

 

Having no O Gauge track to hand made examination difficult. The middle wheelset is compensated with drive to the rear axle.

 

 

I have noted the following:

 

The gears are engaged in forward motion, but sometimes the chassis can be moved backwards with the gears not engaging with the worm .

 

The motor and gearbox rock, probably exacerbating the above. 

 

 

There is a piece of brass wire on the bottom of the gearbox which looks as if it has come unsoldered from the chassis.

 

It is in front of the worm in the picture below.

 

 

Does this need re-soldering into position to prevent the gearbox moving?

 

The only other thing I can think of if the gear set looks worn unevenly affecting the drive.

 

Not having a great deal of experience in these matters I would value your opinion.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark 

 

Good afternoon Mark,

 

If the piece of brass wire mentioned is an 'anchor' for the gearbox, then it should be re-soldered. Unless it's what John Isherwood suggests, a kind of 'pivot'. 

 

I've come across dozens of kit-built locos where no 'restraint' has been in place to prevent a gearbox clattering up and down under load, often clouting the inside of the body.

 

I always install an wire stay.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited July 21 by Tony Wright
to add something

[John Besley]

On that point isn't 4472 / 60103 boiler off an A4...

[Tony Wright]

4 minutes ago, John Besley said:

On that point isn't 4472 / 60103 boiler off an A4...

I don't know John,

 

Other than at some point during her early preservation life, the boiler from SALMON TROUT was acquired as a spare for FLYING SCOTSMAN. I'll have to check it that was a Dia. 107 type.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Chuffer Davies]

14 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

The etch for Jim's gears is on the kit etches - someone has used a different one - is the original in the box? Jim sells his gears separately, I don;t know if he carries extra etches however. I think I would suggest getting new axle bushes and if possible Jim's worm and gear and etch and rebuilding it rigid.

On the basis we have already been told the loco ran sweetly until recently then I see no reason to recommend that the opportunity be taken to solder the chassis rigid. It is apparent that the source of the problem is the gearbox.  Once this is sorted the loco will most likely run sweetly once more with the sprung centre axle still fulfilling its role of optimising current collection.  
When investigating problems with a chassis I’m a great believer in only changing one thing at a time.  That way you know for certain whether what you have altered has improved the situation or made it worse.  Soldering the chassis rigid may introduce a new problem that did not exist previously.  
Frank

[John Isherwood]

4 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

On the basis we have already been told the loco ran sweetly until recently then I see no reason to recommend that the opportunity be taken to solder the chassis rigid. It is apparent that the source of the problem is the gearbox.  Once this is sorted the loco will most likely run sweetly once more with the sprung centre axle still fulfilling its role of optimising current collection.  
When investigating problems with a chassis I’m a great believer in only changing one thing at a time.  That way you know for certain whether what you have altered has improved the situation or made it worse.  Soldering the chassis rigid may introduce a new problem that did not exist previously.  
Frank

 

I suppose that this depends upon one's opinion of 'wobbly wheels' - I'm with Tony on that subject.

 

Whatever, the first thing is to find the oversized hole(s) that is / are allowing the gear train to disengage.

 

That done, a decision can be made as to the need to eliminate the equalisation - or not.

 

CJI.

[John Isherwood]

20 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Mark,

 

If the piece of brass wire mentioned is an 'anchor' for the gearbox, then it should be re-soldered. Unless it's what John Isherwood suggests, a kind of 'pivot'. 

 

I've come across dozens of kit-built locos where no 'restraint' has been in place to prevent a gearbox clattering up and down under load, often clouting the inside of the body.

 

I always install an wire stay.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Tony,

 

I am not suggesting that the wire forms a pivot; rather that it sits in a slot to prevent rotation, but does not prevent the gearbox / motor from being withdrawn from the chassis.

 

Rather a clever arrangement, IMHO.

 

CJI.

[polybear]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Are we looking at the same wire - the transverse one in the gearbox?

 

To me, it appears to be engaged in a slot, in order to allow some fore-and- aft motion (compensation) whilst preventing rotation.

 

CJI.

I believe so - the brass wire stretching between the two mainframes immediately above the steel worm gear and located in slots in the gearbox sides.

[Keith Turbutt]

7 minutes ago, polybear said:

I believe so - the brass wire stretching between the two mainframes immediately above the steel worm gear and located in slots in the gearbox sides.

If the loco ran ok when purchased it suggests that something has come loose/unsoldered. Possibly one side of the brass wire may have popped out of its hole in the frame. If so has this allowed the axlebox to twist and cause uneven wear in the gears? In the photos it appears that the axlebox is not square in the frames, although this may just be a distortion in the photo. Removal of the wheels may be necessary to check this out and for access to resolder the wire into the frames.

 

Only a suggestion as not having any experience with this sort of thing !

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Chuffer Davies said:

On the basis we have already been told the loco ran sweetly until recently then I see no reason to recommend that the opportunity be taken to solder the chassis rigid. It is apparent that the source of the problem is the gearbox.  Once this is sorted the loco will most likely run sweetly once more with the sprung centre axle still fulfilling its role of optimising current collection.  
When investigating problems with a chassis I’m a great believer in only changing one thing at a time.  That way you know for certain whether what you have altered has improved the situation or made it worse.  Soldering the chassis rigid may introduce a new problem that did not exist previously.  
Frank

 

Maybe. I just think for a simple 0-6-0 keep it simple and as designed.

 

Another advantage of using Jim's etch and gears is they fit neatly between the frame and you can just tack it in place, and and as it's a single gear and worm pair you don't need to remove the mount once in place but can still remove the motor and gear.

 

Edited July 21 by Bucoops