Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, Woodcock29 said:

Tony

I don't like the drawbar arrangement at all. The distance isn't the worst aspect of it. If one couples and uncouples a loco and tender several times I've found on 2 P2s with this coupling that the thin metal contacts inside the female coupling on the tender have a tendency to come adrift and get mangled or snap off inside the coupling. I've managed to repair both but I suspect that many modellers wouldn't be able to. I probably should have just replaced them with another type of wire connector or simply soldered wires across and used a wire pin/goal post type arrangement for the actual coupling.

Andrew

Thanks for that Andrew,

 

May I ask, why should one need to couple/uncouple the tender several times? Unless it's for an exhibition layout, but the Hornby packaging is just too cumbersome for that in my view. 

 

Other than for maintenance, I seldom uncouple the tenders from Bytham's locos so equipped (of course, none has complicated/daft/electric-carrying/too long drawbars!).

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

2 hours ago, C.A.T.Ford said:

 

It is in LNER green (but with BR branding), and nicely-weathered. An interesting subject to model?

 

Regards,

 

Tony

 

Edited June 9 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, maico said:

 

Will your 3 areas of concern make it into the magazine review Tony?

 

Or will the editor prefer broad sunlit uplands with lashings of cream and jam scones for tea...

 

 

Having not long returned from visiting our younger son in Norfolk, I'm just catching up on this topic. 

 

I don't take your question/implication as an insult, and I'll certainly mention the lamps and the drawbar, as well as the loco's inability to haul a maximum-weight prototypical Black Five train. 

 

I was lucky enough to test/video the same model which Howard Smith brought along (which had no QC issues), and if Hornby sends a replacement for the one with the busted slidebar then I might not mention that (other than, perhaps, in passing, to 'praise' Hornby's response to the problem). It's obviously a 'one-off' in that respect, and shouldn't be taken as being 'typical' (unless it's happened to the models bought by others). 

 

In fact, I've probably reached my conclusion; that being, it's an exceptionally-accurate model, particularly with regard to the finish, and a beautifully smooth-runner, with (in my opinion) the caveats that the lamps are a misplaced gimmick, the loco and tender are too far apart and it could do with more ballast. Granted, if I wished (which I don't) I could remove the lamps, shorten the drawbar and add more weight (but that would send many purchasers into apoplexy, given that some 'modellers' don't seem to be able to do any 'modelling' for themselves). 

 

I've never seen a better-looking RTR Black Five in OO. In fact, it's superior in appearance to most kit-/scratch-built examples I've seen/photographed.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Chas Levin]

13 hours ago, John Besley said:

Can I ask a question ....

 

It looks like we have sold our house meaning a move after 23 years at this address (in Paignton) this means disposing of some items in paticular scratch built 16mm garden railway buildings that Ill never use again - these have been tucked away for the last 20 years as it is anyway

 

1. A loco shed / workshop

2. A station building based on Bodiam on the K&ESR

3. A SR platelayers hut

 

There may be other items that will have to go - where is the best place to post this info to move them on 

 

Sorry if I am diverting the Black 5 topic

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Beautiful models John, I'm sure you'll be able to find a good home for them.

 

I'm not familiar with the RMWeb sales areas I'm afraid but - at the risk of diverting business from them, please excuse me for that - I'd recommend Ebay. It has by far the largest membership and therefore the largest potential customer base (15 million in the UK, ten times that worldwide, according to the last figures I saw) and there are plenty of safegurds to protect sellers.

 

Usual disclaimers - I do use it myself, but I have no other connection. I know of course that this is a slightly contentious answer, many dislike Ebay and have had poor experiences and I don't want to start another Ebay discussion on Tony's thread, just thought I'd offer the advice: best of luck with the move!

[Willie Whizz]

I’m not sure shortening the drawbar of a new Black 5 would be seen as a straightforward matter by many modellers (especially older ones with poor eyesight!) given that - as I understand it - there are some 8 wires compressed into very small connectors which would have to be re-used or replaced.  Unless, of course, I’m missing something basic about how it could be done? 

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

I’m not sure shortening the drawbar of a new Black 5 would be seen as a straightforward matter by many modellers (especially older ones with poor eyesight!) given that - as I understand it - there are some 8 wires compressed into very small connectors which would have to be re-used or replaced.  Unless, of course, I’m missing something basic about how it could be done? 

My conclusion too, once shown a friend's example.

 

I had been confident in being able to modify the link....until I saw one!

 

However, seeing the "actuality", it was also apparent that, with the exception of the tail lamp,

the main sources of criticism are independent of the main loco and tender tooling.

 

Hornby could therefore address them simply by altering the link bar and headlight inserts, plus minor retooling to the tender body, rather than interventions on my own part that would invalidate any warranty, and possibly force me into re-wiring the entire model.

 

I've therefore decided that "wait and see" will be best for me.

 

John

 

 

Edited June 10 by Dunsignalling

[Tony Wright]

With regard to shortening the Black Five's drawbar, my approach would be to make an entirely new one (using brass wire), independent of the need to pass electricity between the loco and the tender.

 

Because of DCC imperatives, most current RTR tender locos seem to have provision for a decoder in the tender body (and provision for a speaker as well). Since I have no need of DCC (especially sound), I'd strip down the loco part of the connector, identify which (four) wires were needed to power the motor (using a meter) and solder the appropriate pairs of wires together (this would probably have the added bonus of killing any power to the lamps). It would render any tender pick-ups redundant, but since Bytham's points/crossings are all live-frog and the track is kept clean, tender pick-ups are superfluous.

 

Once accomplished, the original (too long) split drawbar can then be chucked away! As could be all the lamps.

 

I've done a similar drawbar conversion on a Heljan O2; I'll take a picture later. 

 

For those who use DCC, I wouldn't have a clue how to shorten that drawbar. Sorry. 

[APOLLO]

My Hornby "Silver Seal" Black 5, bought in Edinburgh (along with an Evening Star) back in 1972 is still going strong (very strong !!). So is Evening Star.

 

These locos were my first OO locos after abandoning TT scale. Both have a ringfield motor in the tender, with 4 traction tyres (still original). The tender is permanently coupled to the loco (drawbar with screws) and two permanent wires run from the loco pickups to the tender, no plugs/sockets etc. Both are still superb runners at all speeds and as mentioned will pull anything.

 

Will the new Black 5's still be running as reliable in fifty two years ?

 

 

Brit15

[Tony Wright]

Drawbars?

 

 

The original Heljan O2 drawbar, set at the longer option. 

 

I know there are only four wires in this, but the principle is the same.

 

 

In order to accommodate DCC, those who don't need it (and in my case, definitely don't want it!), have to put up with all this 'spaghetti'. 

 

No matter.......

 

 

Just cutting through the wires and soldering pairs together mean that the loco runs without its tender (one might have thought that red went to red and black to black, but no..........).

 

 

Insulated tube sleeving prevented stray shorts.

 

 

And a new 'goalpost & hook' made from .45mm brass wire was installed (one of the insulating sleeves has disappeared, though no short circuits occur).  

 

And the main reason for these alterations?

 

 

I converted a Heljan O2/3 into an O2/2, using a Nu-Cast GNR tender plus several other modifications.

 

A more 'sophisticated' drawbar......................

 

 

Can be sprung, using .45 brass wire, a shortened coil spring and a split-pin. 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

I've replaced the missing slidebar on the Black Five..............

 

 

Using suitably-sized brass stock and solder. 

 

The slidebar assembly seems to be made of cast metal of some sort, which only took solder 'under protest'.

 

So.................

 

 

Once successful tacks had been made, the joints were reinforced with epoxy. 

 

After weathering, this won't be evident.

 

The loco now runs superbly! 

[MikeParkin65]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I've replaced the missing slidebar on the Black Five..............

 

 

Using suitably-sized brass stock and solder. 

 

The slidebar assembly seems to be made of cast metal of some sort, which only took solder 'under protest'.

 

So.................

 

 

Once successful tacks had been made, the joints were reinforced with epoxy. 

 

After weathering, this won't be evident.

 

The loco now runs superbly! 

If there was a prize for 'Ready to Run repair of the Year' you've just won it Tony! 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

With regard to shortening the Black Five's drawbar, my approach would be to make an entirely new one (using brass wire), independent of the need to pass electricity between the loco and the tender...

For those who use DCC, I wouldn't have a clue how to shorten that drawbar. 

As a DCC user, my plan is much like yours in this respect, replacement with a new simple DIY drawbar arrangement to have loco and tender at scale separation. Then typically arrange to fit the decoder in the loco, (most likely the smokebox on this model, as it seems that a  lump of lead ballast will have to be placed over the drivers) : since tender pick ups, sound effects, working steam loco lamps (and whatever is next doo-dad  in line) are not essential, and may take a running jump. 

 

The key to this that RTR OO locos - at present - have a nominal 12V DC mechanism, and as long as this holds, it is no more difficult than fitting a decoder to a model produced before decoder sockets became a commonplace; and may well be easier, with no need for such actions as sawing a chunk off a mechanism casting to create a concealed void.

 

 

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

27 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

As a DCC user, my plan is much like yours in this respect, replacement with a new simple DIY drawbar arrangement to have loco and tender at scale separation. Then typically arrange to fit the decoder in the loco, (most likely the smokebox on this model, as it seems that a  lump of lead ballast will have to be placed over the drivers) : since tender pick ups, sound effects, working steam loco lamps (and whatever is next doo-dad  in line) are not essential, and may take a running jump. 

 

The key to this that RTR OO locos - at present - have a nominal 12V DC mechanism, and as long as this holds, it is no more difficult than fitting a decoder to a model produced before decoder sockets became a commonplace; and may well be easier, with no need for such actions as sawing a chunk off a mechanism casting to create a concealed void.

 

 

 

 

Broadly what I would do but note that both Tony and @Silver Sidelines on the Hornby forum have noted a lack of traction. @Silver Sidelines has shown where lead can be added on the loco chassis so it might be worth doing that and leaving the decoder in the tender

[1471SirFrederickBanbury]

7 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

With regard to shortening the Black Five's drawbar, my approach would be to make an entirely new one (using brass wire), independent of the need to pass electricity between the loco and the tender.

 

Because of DCC imperatives, most current RTR tender locos seem to have provision for a decoder in the tender body (and provision for a speaker as well). Since I have no need of DCC (especially sound), I'd strip down the loco part of the connector, identify which (four) wires were needed to power the motor (using a meter) and solder the appropriate pairs of wires together (this would probably have the added bonus of killing any power to the lamps). It would render any tender pick-ups redundant, but since Bytham's points/crossings are all live-frog and the track is kept clean, tender pick-ups are superfluous.

 

Once accomplished, the original (too long) split drawbar can then be chucked away! As could be all the lamps.

 

I've done a similar drawbar conversion on a Heljan O2; I'll take a picture later. 

 

For those who use DCC, I wouldn't have a clue how to shorten that drawbar. Sorry. 

I've got an idea working in my head.  By using a kinematic, sprung drawbar (I always think in terms of Gresley A1s, so the main and supporting 2) at prototypical height, we could disguise having a (roughly) double scale thickness, hollow main drawbar housing wires inside and female pin connections at the tender's end. by using a simple bellcrank, we can arrange the assembly so that by simply pushing the loco and tender together, the action is transferred into the bellcrank to push down a solid piece affixing the electrical and structural pins. 

 

Uncoupling would be done either by pulling on the opposite side of the crank, while the loco is upside down of course, or by possibly having the bellcrank connected to a step or some feature that could be turned, freeing the two. 

 

The best part, as the drawbar is kinematic, we can bring the loco and tender so close on straights, that they are touching, yet when a tight curve is to be traversed, the drawbar will automatically give just the right amount of space to allow for such, and in the worst case, the spring will allow just a hair more separation, and finally return to a distance of practically nought! 

 

It wouldn't be that expensive either, but would alleviate the issues with most other drawbars.  We could also have it be a weight transferring drawbar (a la Mike Sharman's version), and for people with no desire of DCC, the tender could just packed full of tungsten/lead!  I like the idea already.

[MikeParkin65]

22 minutes ago, 1471SirFrederickBanbury said:

I've got an idea working in my head.  By using a kinematic, sprung drawbar (I always think in terms of Gresley A1s, so the main and supporting 2) at prototypical height, we could disguise having a (roughly) double scale thickness, hollow main drawbar housing wires inside and female pin connections at the tender's end. by using a simple bellcrank, we can arrange the assembly so that by simply pushing the loco and tender together, the action is transferred into the bellcrank to push down a solid piece affixing the electrical and structural pins. 

 

Uncoupling would be done either by pulling on the opposite side of the crank, while the loco is upside down of course, or by possibly having the bellcrank connected to a step or some feature that could be turned, freeing the two. 

 

The best part, as the drawbar is kinematic, we can bring the loco and tender so close on straights, that they are touching, yet when a tight curve is to be traversed, the drawbar will automatically give just the right amount of space to allow for such, and in the worst case, the spring will allow just a hair more separation, and finally return to a distance of practically nought! 

 

It wouldn't be that expensive either, but would alleviate the issues with most other drawbars.  We could also have it be a weight transferring drawbar (a la Mike Sharman's version), and for people with no desire of DCC, the tender could just packed full of tungsten/lead!  I like the idea already.

Both Accurascale and Dapol have demonstrated that a 'kinematic' coupling that allows very close/scale coupling on the straight yet able to open up to allow for curves is possible. For reasons unknown Bachmann (on their V2) and now Hornby have chosen to go the opposite direction and offer chunky couplings with very wide fixed gaps between loco and tender - it is literally the opposite of good design.

[zr2498]

5 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Both Accurascale and Dapol have demonstrated that a 'kinematic' coupling that allows very close/scale coupling on the straight yet able to open up to allow for curves is possible. For reasons unknown Bachmann (on their V2) and now Hornby have chosen to go the opposite direction and offer chunky couplings with very wide fixed gaps between loco and tender - it is literally the opposite of good design.

I quite like the Accurascale coupling on the Manor.

The 8 wires (same number of connections as the Black 5), are not too chunky and are not too obvious when postioned just under the fall plate. This has an 8 pin plug.

 

 

The picture above shows the coupling in the extended position, but the kinematic coupling can be closed by moving to another hole in the draw bar as below.

 

 

Ideally these parts could be purchased from Accurascale as  spares and transferred to the Black 5. I am sure life would not be so simple.

There are still 8 connections. My plan is to keep the 8 as I will use DCC and fit sound. I will however, replace the steam generator decoder connections with a rewiring of the firebox flicker so that it illuminated when the function for coal sovelling is pressed. The existing set up has the firebox glow on permanently as it is powered from the pick ups.

A challenge which should help activate the neurons!

 

[kingmender]

I had the pleasure of meeting @Jesse Sim this weekend. Venturing south of the border into 'Mexico' he joined us at the Waverley Model Railway Club exhibition. Demonstrating his modelling skills, he brought a selection of models and worked on several over the weekend. Good to chat Jesse, thanks for coming and see you again soon.
Rodger

[Woodcock29]

On 10/06/2024 at 05:32, Tony Wright said:

Thanks for that Andrew,

 

May I ask, why should one need to couple/uncouple the tender several times? Unless it's for an exhibition layout, but the Hornby packaging is just too cumbersome for that in my view. 

 

Other than for maintenance, I seldom uncouple the tenders from Bytham's locos so equipped (of course, none has complicated/daft/electric-carrying/too long drawbars!).

 

Regards,

 

Tony

Tony

In the case of the P2s and my latest A4 I uncoupled the locos several times whilst working out what crew to add and during coaling, which in some cases entailed some weathering of the empty coal space prior to adding real coal. In hindsight I think the ease with which this new coupling system can be coupled and uncoupled is in fact its downfall as the temptation is to do this a number of times which one probably wouldn't have done in the case of the previous white plug and socket arrangement even with the Hornby tweezers type tool.

 

In reality, from my experience the electrical connections in the female part of the coupling are simply not robust in anyway.

 

On my recent Bachman V2 (and 3 for Alan Harrison) I did rebuild the awful coupling but was able to reuse the internal electrical plug in that for the electrical wires and brass wire for a goal post physical coupling. However, the Hornby  coupling doesnt appear to lend itself to such an option - it would require a new eletrical plug.

 

Andrew

Edited June 10 by Woodcock29
Added comment

[polybear]

7 hours ago, kingmender said:

 

 

@Jesse Sim Nice ride you've got there, Simo - I'd love to see the look on Sir's face as you pull up on the drive at Tony Towers in that, with Air Horns playing Waltzin' Matilda ....

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, kingmender said:

I had the pleasure of meeting @Jesse Sim this weekend. Venturing south of the border into 'Mexico' he joined us at the Waverley Model Railway Club exhibition. Demonstrating his modelling skills, he brought a selection of models and worked on several over the weekend. Good to chat Jesse, thanks for coming and see you again soon.
Rodger

Good morning Rodger,

 

Is that a disabled bay he's parked in? 

 

Not only that, a personalised numberplate. The ultimate in being naff in my view! Typical.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

17 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Broadly what I would do but note that both Tony and @Silver Sidelines on the Hornby forum have noted a lack of traction. @Silver Sidelines has shown where lead can be added on the loco chassis so it might be worth doing that and leaving the decoder in the tender

Good morning Mike,

 

One other point regarding the 'lack of traction' with regard to Hornby's latest Black Five; yesterday morning (after I'd repaired the slidebar assembly), for videoing purposes I put it on to a 45 wagon full minerals (with one exception, a mixture of plastic kit-builds and plastic RTR). No chance! I had to remove 15 wagons before slipping was brought under control. Granted, not every model railway has room for trains of 45+ wagons (or even 30), but a prototype Black Five could easily haul trains of such length. 

 

It's likely that the majority of buyers will be delighted with their new Black Fives (they should be), but it proves the point to me yet again; that if one models a 'scale' Class 1 main line, on which scale-length trains are run (many comprised of metal vehicles), then most RTR steam-outline locos are just no use (unless extra ballast is added). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[davidw]

28 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mike,

 

One other point regarding the 'lack of traction' with regard to Hornby's latest Black Five; yesterday morning (after I'd repaired the slidebar assembly), for videoing purposes I put it on to a 45 wagon full minerals (with one exception, a mixture of plastic kit-builds and plastic RTR). No chance! I had to remove 15 wagons before slipping was brought under control. Granted, not every model railway has room for trains of 45+ wagons (or even 30), but a prototype Black Five could easily haul trains of such length. 

 

It's likely that the majority of buyers will be delighted with their new Black Fives (they should be), but it proves the point to me yet again; that if one models a 'scale' Class 1 main line, on which scale-length trains are run (many comprised of metal vehicles), then most RTR steam-outline locos are just no use (unless extra ballast is added). 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

The lack of haulage capacity in the new black 5 is disappointing.

I had two of the older black 5s introduced in  2004/5, until I eventually sold them. The haulage capacity of both were very good, one slightly better than the other. But both handled 15 coach Bachmann mk1 trains with minimal slipping, and would handle 40+ wagon freights. 

It's a pity that the new one isn't as good.

 

Edited June 11 by davidw

[Richard_A]

All this talk about Black 5's, is getting me interested in buying a kit for an eventual Central Wales/Swansea themed model.

 

I know of DJH and Brassmasters ones but, what is the K's one like? I see them on eBay and I wonder if buying a badly built one to dismantle would be worth it.

[kingmender]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Rodger,

 

Is that a disabled bay he's parked in? 

 

Not only that, a personalised numberplate. The ultimate in being naff in my view! Typical.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony

The answer to your question has to be yes and no. The ute is in a normal parking bay, while Jesse is in the disabled one! Is Jesse 'parked' or is he standing?

There is a small arrow at the bottom of the parking sign pointing to the left just visable above the ute. I feel Jesse is far too well mannered to use such a restricted bay inappropriately.

Rodger

Edited June 11 by kingmender
Poor spelling and grammar that Tony is far too polite to point out.

[Tony Wright]

16 minutes ago, kingmender said:

Hi Tony

The answer to your question has to be yes and no. The ute is in a normal parking bay, while Jesse is in the disabled one! Is Jesse 'parked' or is he standing?

There is a small arrow at the bottom of the parking sign pointing to the left just visable above the ute. I feel Jesse is far to well manered to use such a restricted bay inapropriately.

Rodger

Thanks Rodger,

 

Jesse is, indeed, very well-mannered. 

 

By the way, what's a 'ute'? Jesse or the vehicle? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15