Wright writes.....

[davidw]

Do you mean this for the Cravens mk1? I've done the majority of the rework. Central aluminum strip in the large window required and a way to attach the roof to the sides. I'd prefer not to glue. The coach was originally one on the hachett el cheapo mk1s provided with a magazine a good few years back. A Bachmann or Hornby mk1 would probably have produced a better result.

I don't think  the seating layout is correct but at this stage rule 1 applies

 

Edited May 28 by davidw

[Tony Wright]

24 minutes ago, davidw said:

Do you mean this for the Cravens mk1? I've done the majority of the rework. Central aluminum strip in the large window required and a way to attach the roof to the sides. I'd prefer not to glue. The coach was originally one on the hachett el cheapo mk1s provided with a magazine a good few years back. A Bachmann or Hornby mk1 would probably have produced a better result.

 

That's the one David, though I can't recall whether it was the FO or SO which was in the Northumbrian.

 

When we ran the train on Stoke Summit, Dave Lewis provided the car from his own Southern Pride range. I assume you car has SP sides?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[davidw]

2 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

That's the one David, though I can't recall whether it was the FO or SO which was in the Northumbrian.

 

When we ran the train on Stoke Summit, Dave Lewis provided the car from his own Southern Pride range. I assume you car has SP sides?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Yes the sides are Southern Pride. The sides were quite a bit shorter than the donor coach. Worked okay in the end.

[Barry Ten]

A bit more test-running of my Nu-Cast M&SWJR 2-4-0. I decided I couldn't live with the lack of brake gear so cobbled together some from a spare etch.

 

 

[Keith Turbutt]

On 26/05/2024 at 10:46, Tony Wright said:

 

 

 

 

And the catering core - a Comet Thompson RF (Alan Buckenham's work for the late Geoff Brewin) and a Southern Pride/Bachmann/MJT RSO

 

 

 

 

 

On 26/05/2024 at 10:46, Tony Wright said:

 

Hi Tony,

 

Hope I'm not being pedantic, but is theThompson RF the right way round? I would have expected the RF seating to be next to the first class accomodation in the leading coach. I doubt the first class diners

would appreciate the catering staff walking through their area to serve the second class diners.

I think the Elizabethan had a similar catering layout and was as I have described.

 

Either way, no pun intended, I'm enjoying this thread. I think some while ago you did a series of articles describing the make up of the principal ECML expresses. Do you remember which magazine it was and when?

[Tony Wright]

27 minutes ago, Keith Turbutt said:

 

Hi Tony,

 

Hope I'm not being pedantic, but is theThompson RF the right way round? I would have expected the RF seating to be next to the first class accomodation in the leading coach. I doubt the first class diners

would appreciate the catering staff walking through their area to serve the second class diners.

I think the Elizabethan had a similar catering layout and was as I have described.

 

Either way, no pun intended, I'm enjoying this thread. I think some while ago you did a series of articles describing the make up of the principal ECML expresses. Do you remember which magazine it was and when?

Good evening Keith,

 

You could well be right, though the FOs could have been used for dining. In the Elizabethan, the adjacent carriage was an FK. 

 

 

Anyway, it was not uncommon to have cars the 'wrong way' round, so to speak.

 

It's years ago that I did any articles on the make-up of ECML trains, though Andy Sparkes (The Green Howards) did a piece in BRM a little while ago.

 

Since I don't keep magazines, he might tell you which issue. I took the following shots of his models in 2021.

 

These are the photographs from it..............

 

 

 

 

This is his early version of the Anglo Scottish Car Carrier.

 

 

This is (I think) a Newcastle express, with the ex-Silver Jubilee triplet diner in it.

 

 

The Festival of Britain Heart of Midlothian.

 

 

And The White Rose.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[thegreenhowards]

My BRM article was June 2022. 

[APOLLO]

For car touch up aerosols I get mine made on the spot by my local car paint specialist. I use Wigan Car Paints at Pemberton, they will mix and make a large spray aerosol (hope I've spelt that correctly !!), any colour including metallic for around £12.

 

Look for such shops near you.

 

Ford Burgundy is also a colour I use - Rock Island Railroad maroon.

 

Brit15

[Tony Wright]

Speaking of rattle can spray painting, I've found the Halfords matt black to give a 'perfect' finish prior to lettering/numbering/weathering.

 

I used to use satin black, but that dried too glossy for my needs, and the current matt black dries to more of a satin finish.

 

Some recent examples................

 

 

An LRM D2.

 

 

A Crownline J17.

 

 

A Little Engines J11.

 

 

A Nu-Cast K2.

 

 

A Little Engines O4/7.

 

 

And a Pro-Scale B1 (with Bachmann tender). 

 

All the above have now been weathered, of course.

 

I'm not sure professional painters would use rattle can paints straight from the can, thinking the finish to be too coarse. However for my needs (I don't own an airbrush) I think they're fine.

 

 

[Tony Wright]

Depending on the model, I've also used rattle cans to paint my carriages...............

 

 

Near 50 years ago, it was BL Damask Red cellulose on my BSL Thompsons.

 

 

I now use Ford Burgundy Red acrylic.

 

 

 

 

Which, in my view, gives an excellent rendition of BRM maroon. 

 

Where spray-painting wasn't an option (on Mailcoach clear-sided kits).............

 

 

 

I used Humbrol's BR maroon, which varied. 

 

With Humbrol's railway colours' disappearance................

 

 

 

I switched to Railmatch (but that, too, varied). 

 

All the Mailcoach cars above were brush-painted using a sable (at least five coats, then a coat of Ronseal polyurethane satin varnish after lining/lettering). 

 

It's my belief that the maroons on these are too dark, but the real things did vary. 

 

I'm not sure I have the right temperament for model painting - too many things to go wrong!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Barry Ten]

23 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

It's my belief that the maroons on these are too dark, but the real things did vary. 

 

 

Although it's on a preserved line, so perhaps doesn't count, I was surprised at how dark the BR Mk1 maroon carriages were at the West Somerset Railway when we took a ride on it last month. Sorry I didn't take a picture.

[davidw]

24 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

 

Although it's on a preserved line, so perhaps doesn't count, I was surprised at how dark the BR Mk1 maroon carriages were at the West Somerset Railway when we took a ride on it last month. Sorry I didn't take a picture.

The Gloucester Warwickshire line is about 7 miles from me. A chap I know volunteers at the carriage works and frequently tasked with painting mk1s. When first painted the maroon is very vibrant. It surprised him and myself how quickly it dulled. 

Personally in modelling terms, I try to keep the maroons and b/c in the same family.... Ie not too dissimilar. However, different lightning or shading illustrates how unstable maroons can be, even if the paint is from the same tin or can! Perhaps it's my painting.....😛

Edited May 28 by davidw

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, davidw said:

A chap I know volunteers at the carriage works and frequently tasked with painting mk1s. When first painted the maroon is very vibrant. It surprised him and myself how quickly it dulled. 

 

But this is presumably with paints to current specifications and therefore is no evidence for the behaviour of the paints used in the 50s and 60s. 

[westerner]

I haven't interupted for some tome. 3775 nearing Blackney with the midday passenger from Gloucester.

 

[davidw]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

But this is presumably with paints to current specifications and therefore is no evidence for the behaviour of the paints used in the 50s and 60s. 

Absolutely true. But I would have expected (rightly or wrongly) the modern paints would be more stable than those of 60 yrs ago.

I suppose this leads to the supplementary question of how accurate colors on heritage lines are.

Please don't think I'm taking from the stirling work of heritage line volunteers in maintaining painting rolling stock and so on with that thought. 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, davidw said:

Please don't think I'm taking from the stirling work of heritage line volunteers in maintaining painting rolling stock and so on with that thought. 

 

I would not wish to be thought of as doings so either. Heritage railways are perforce obliged to use 'non-heritage' methods to achieve a 'heritage' appearance, not least in order to meet current regulatory requirements. 

[westerner]

Interestingly I gather accurate colour memory is very short, less than a day even hours I understand. Which is why I always allow myself a little smile when people go on obout the exact shade of a colour.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, westerner said:

Interestingly I gather accurate colour memory is very short, less than a day even hours I understand. Which is why I always allow myself a little smile when people go on obout the exact shade of a colour.

 

On the one hand, there is perception of colour, which varies between individuals and, as you say, with time, but on the other hand there are recognised colour reference standards, which were certainly established at least by BR days, and which provide a non-subjective measurement. One doesn't get into arguments about the length of a Mk1 just because my foot isn't the same length as yours!

[Steamport Southport]

To be fair to the painters by the time you have painted the one coach the rest of the coaches would have been in use for some time.

 

Most noticeable on the roofs. I would have expected most of these to all be the same basic colour. Probably all from the same batch of paint.

 

The four furthest on platform two are maroon. I think the nearest one is in chocolate and cream. The rest are blood and custard. The WSR seems to have a set of each livery. This was a gala so there might have been a bit of swapping to make up sets.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[John Tomlinson]

Concerning "colour", I have posted this photo before on other areas of the Forum, and it is in preservation, but it does somewhat confirm the point that the quest for perfection in this area is rather fraught!

 

I suspect that the Premiership of expresses, such as the Talisman had coaches that were clean, quite shiny and fairly uniform. However, I very much doubt if this was true for a lot of the trains on the system.

 

Click on pic for details, the second coach looks recently painted, the first and fourth a little longer ago, but three, five and six are very tired - as others have said, no reflection on our preservationists, just a case of how it is.

 

But what price our little tins of "authentic" colours?!

 

 

John.

Edited May 28 by John Tomlinson

[Chamby]

13 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Concerning "colour", I have posted this photo before on other areas of the Forum, and it is in preservation, but it does somewhat confirm the point that the quest for perfection in this area is rather fraught!

 

I suspect that the Premiership of expresses, such as the Talisman had coaches that were clean, quite shiny and fairly uniform. However, I very much doubt if this was true for a lot of the trains on the system.

 

Click on pic for details, the second coach looks recently painted, the fourth a little longer ago, but three, five and six are very tired - as others have said, no reflection on our preservationists, just a case of how it is.

 

But what price our little tins of "authentic" colours?!

 

 

John.

I wouldn’t be surprised if these coaches were all a closer colour match when freshly painted.  Soot and grime will darken the colour over time, and older coaches tend to lose their glossy finish.

 

Re: rattle cans, I personally rate the Citadel aerosols sold in Warhammer shops and online.  They’re acrylic and have been given strange Warhammery names, but work well.  

[Roger Sunderland]

That’s useful to know Phil but do you know what “warhammery “ names are similar to BR maroon, crimson, cream, loco green etc?

[MJI]

Try dealing with eyes with different colour handling. I DID have this until recently.

 

Left was a lot more yellow/brown.

 

I thought some of our appliances were aging badly.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok i need to edit this.

 

Yellowing vision is a sign of cataracts. Now running acrylic from Akreos rather than collagen.

 

Get your eyes checked out.

 

My differences were similar to daylight vs tungsten lighting .

Edited May 28 by MJI

[John Tomlinson]

1 hour ago, Chamby said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if these coaches were all a closer colour match when freshly painted.  Soot and grime will darken the colour over time, and older coaches tend to lose their glossy finish.

 

Re: rattle cans, I personally rate the Citadel aerosols sold in Warhammer shops and online.  They’re acrylic and have been given strange Warhammery names, but work well.  

 

I'm sure your first sentence is correct. The point of the picture was, as you describe, to point out that the shiny, brighter shade isn't going to last long, and that it seems at first to go a bit darker.

 

If I were aiming for a kind of midpoint in my BR maroon stock, I'd go for that darker, duller hue, still smart but not gleaming, which is fortunate as it's quite close to the finish on a Bachmann Mk1! For a top express, it would ideally be the shinier and lighter finish, but these distinctions are really only for those with extensive sets of rakes, and who model consists precisely.

 

Sometime around 1970 I do remember seeing at Preston on a Saturday excursion, what must have been one of the last rakes of BR maroon. It was nearly pink and far grottier than the "tired" ones in my photo above. I'd leave that for the seriously commited "weatherers"!

 

John.

[Tony Wright]

Thanks for all the recent posts about colours/carriages - most enlightening.

 

Some more examples from my own modelling.............

 

 

When I built The Elizabethan nearly 30 years ago now using Southern Pride sides over old Bachmann Thompson donors, I painted the whole lot more or less in 'one go' using rattle can Ford Burgundy Red (it could have been cellulose back in those days). Dave Lewis painted his own two Southern Pride Mk.1s at the rear at the same time using the same paint. 

 

Since this was a most-prestigious train (and the text books tell me the stock was lifted/repaired/refurbished/repainted in the spring in preparation for the summer season), then I think it's fair that I've represented it in overall pristine condition (with light weathering on the bogies/underframes). 

 

It's definitely a 'layout train' - one 'great' carriage builder thought my approach to building this rake 'a bit slapdash' and probably 'unhelpful' to other modellers since so much was compromised. On the other hand, the dear old RM thought my approach was pragmatic.

 

 

The summer Flying Scotsman was made-up mainly of BR Mk.1s (in the winter it used the 'Lizzie' stock), according to the 'book' all in maroon for 1958. However, a prototype shot revealed a carmine/cream example (an obvious substitute), so I included that. With the exception of the Thompson SK with ladies' retiring room and the Thompson BG, all the cars are altered Bachmann Mk.1s, which are certainly duller/darker than my Elizabethan's finish. 

 

 

My Northumbrian is also made up mainly of Bachmann cars, with a 'dullish' finish.

 

However,

 

 

The catering core (painted by Geoff Haynes using decanted Ford Burgundy Red through his airbrush) is much brighter and certainly more shiny than the adjacent Bachmann Mk.1s. That said, there were variations and I don't find the situation obtrusive. 

 

Anyway, in taking pictures there are certainly differences dependent on the lighting..................

 

 

A Bachmann Thompson CK under studio lighting, taken with a Nikon D3.

 

 

The same car under the layout's lighting (after some weathering, to be fair) taken with a Nikon Df.

 

The adjacent Gresley FO is painted in Ford Burgundy Red.  

 

Another example............

 

 

Heljan's recent Newton-Chambers Anglo-Scottish Car Carrier stock (studio lighting and Nikon D3). 

 

 

Certainly different under the layout's lighting (Nikon Df).

 

 

And more so after some weathering (courtesy of Geoff Haynes). 

 

Two approaches to painting Kirk Gresleys.............

 

 

A GE-section 'shorty' SK painted with Humbrol's BR maroon.

 

 

And a standard length, end door SK painted using the rattle can Burgundy Red.

 

Can weathering go too far?

 

 

This Kirk Gresley BG was painted by sable brush using Railmatch's BR maroon, then weathered with matt enamels. 

 

 

Is this Hornby/Trice Gresley BG more-realistic (painted by rattle can), with only the roof, ends, underframe and bogies weathered? 

 

 

Southern Pride's pre-printed sides for the firm's Mk.1s are certainly glossy, though I've weathered the rest of the car. 

 

 

I don't know which colour of maroon Tony Geary used on his Comet Thompson semi corridor lavatory composite, but it's not far off the  Humbrol BR maroon I used to paint that Mailcoach Tourist twin TO. 

 

Having seen that 'roof' shot.............

 

 

Are mine too uniform? 

 

Food for thought all round, I think...............

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Tony Wright
to add something