Wright writes.....

[Mike 84C]

Clean engine crew on a J11, must be a Monday, as Monday was always clean ovies day.

[lezz01]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Quite a few years ago, we ran a train of 135 wagons around Tickhill & Wadworth, which had 3ft radius curves (EM Gauge). The train went right around the layout and the brake van was a few inches in front of the loco. It would run at various speeds with pulling over into the centre and we didn't get any derailments.

 

I expected it to come off but it didn't.

 

Somebody cleverer than me can explain why some heavy trains pull off the track inwards on a curve and some don't!

 

  

If you imagine your train as a piece of string with a heavy weight on each end if you try to pull this in a circle the weight at the rear will always try to make the circle into a straight line. To stop this happening make sure each wagon is as free running as possible, try to make sure that each wagon is as close to the same weight as possible if some wagons are heavier than others put them as close to the loco as possible and have the lighter wagons to the rear. If a wagon has a binding axle remove it and replace or free up the offending wheelset as this will act as a weight. Objects will try to move in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force in this case a heavy brake van at the rear will induce a lateral force to the train and straighten out the circle so it will fall off the rails towards the inside of the curve. Newtons first & second law of motion are in business here. An objects reaction to an external force is proportionate to it's mass.

Regards Lez.     

[Jesse Sim]

11 hours ago, lezz01 said:

Apology accepted.

I went through secondary education being told I was stupid and wouldn't amount to anything! However I've qualified and worked as a toolmaker, served my country in the army where I produced fire control data for tactical nuclear missiles, and yes often on the back of a cigarette packet just because we could and it was fun to race against, and beat, the computer.

I've also gained a 2:1 in biochemistry and worked for 25 years as a pharmacy technician. Seems my teachers, who told me I was stupid didn't know the difference between stupidity and dyslexia.

Yes I still need a spell checker to spell dyslexic but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I'm what is termed as an unconscious compensator which can be a pain in the ass but I can do calculus and 6 gun fire missions in my head!

It also makes me unstable, hence the fact I'm registered disabled and I don't always play nice with other children but I always try to do my best.

So you'll have to forgive me if I come across as a bit highly strung and a little touchy, that'll be the personality disorders you understand. If it wasn't for my lovely, extremely patient wife I would have put myself out of my, and everyone else's, misery a long time ago.

The truth is I don't get on with people so I don't get out much. Although through even the worst of it I've managed to keep my very part time gig in the local pharmacy but they keep me well away from the punters you understand as dead customers can be a bit heavy on the paperwork and doesn't make for good reviews on line but I'm an absolute whiz at the paperwork so they keep me in a box out the back. 

I can just about manage 1 exhibition a year and although I say I'm building an exhibition layout to be honest I'm kidding myself that I'll ever have the confidence to actually exhibit it and although I'd love to be in a club again I don't think it's really going to happen either.

Regards Lez.

I’m the opposite, I have dyslexia but with numbers/mathematics, dyscalculia I think it’s called…anyway, same thing, got told in school by my Maths teacher that I’m lazy for not learning my timestables and that I won’t amount to anything if I didn’t and also that I wouldn’t have a calculator with me on my person all the time. You can imagine how good I felt walking up to him last September, at a reunion, and showed the calculator on my iPhone…. I think the words “what the f**k’s that then” came out of my mouth 🤣. 

But I run a business with my family, I organise all the stock, the ordering, I look after the first stage of the accounts and invoices for my customers Australia wide….

 

Plus any grammatical or spelling mistakes were flogged out of me by Tony at Little Bytham the last 7 years. 
 

 

To summarise; you’re never alone. 

[t-b-g]

24 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

If you imagine your train as a piece of string with a heavy weight on each end if you try to pull this in a circle the weight at the rear will always try to make the circle into a straight line. To stop this happening make sure each wagon is as free running as possible, try to make sure that each wagon is as close to the same weight as possible if some wagons are heavier than others put them as close to the loco as possible and have the lighter wagons to the rear. If a wagon has a binding axle remove it and replace or free up the offending wheelset as this will act as a weight. Objects will try to move in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force in this case a heavy brake van at the rear will induce a lateral force to the train and straighten out the circle so it will fall off the rails towards the inside of the curve. Newtons first & second law of motion are in business here. An objects reaction to an external force is proportionate to it's mass.

Regards Lez.     

 

Thanks for that. It is along the lines of what I was thinking. In my case, the first 100 wagons were all plastic, a mix of kits and RTR. All have pin point bearings. We then attached 35 wagons, a mix of plastic, whitemetal and etched (with varying weight) at the rear of the train. I fully expected the heavier wagons at the back to pull the lighter plastic wagons at the front over but they didn't. We were probably at a stage where the pull forwards, through the coupling and the low rolling resistance was just enough to keep them going. I can imagine just putting a finger on the roof of the brake van would have had them all off.

 

Examples have been given of trains being pulled over on curves and I have seen it happen. I just can't work out whether just the length of the train would make it come off or if it is down to variations in weight and rolling resistance.

 

If all vehicles have the same weight and rolling resistance, would an exceptionally long train get pulled over on a curve just due to the overall weight of the trailing load or would it stay on? That is the bit I don't know the answer to. My instinct says that they would stay on but I don't know for sure.

 

Why I even bother thinking about such things is another matter altogether!

[Harry Lund]

Tony.  Apologies if I have missed any discussion about the future of OO Gauge DJH kits.   Geoff West visited York today.  The subject came up so we rang DJH.  The range has been sold to Ellis Clark Trains.  Giles  

[lezz01]

2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Thanks for that. It is along the lines of what I was thinking. In my case, the first 100 wagons were all plastic, a mix of kits and RTR. All have pin point bearings. We then attached 35 wagons, a mix of plastic, whitemetal and etched (with varying weight) at the rear of the train. I fully expected the heavier wagons at the back to pull the lighter plastic wagons at the front over but they didn't. We were probably at a stage where the pull forwards, through the coupling and the low rolling resistance was just enough to keep them going. I can imagine just putting a finger on the roof of the brake van would have had them all off.

 

Examples have been given of trains being pulled over on curves and I have seen it happen. I just can't work out whether just the length of the train would make it come off or if it is down to variations in weight and rolling resistance.

 

If all vehicles have the same weight and rolling resistance, would an exceptionally long train get pulled over on a curve just due to the overall weight of the trailing load or would it stay on? That is the bit I don't know the answer to. My instinct says that they would stay on but I don't know for sure.

 

Why I even bother thinking about such things is another matter altogether!

It should stay on the track. It's the coning of the wheels and the inclination of the rails that keep the wheels on the track not the flanges you understand, you can assist this with super elevation to cancel out the centrifugal force but if you put on too much then you come back to the weight at the rear working against the propelling force from the front and straightening out the curve.

Regards Lez. 

[Tony Wright]

25 minutes ago, Harry Lund said:

Tony.  Apologies if I have missed any discussion about the future of OO Gauge DJH kits.   Geoff West visited York today.  The subject came up so we rang DJH.  The range has been sold to Ellis Clark Trains.  Giles  

Thanks for that, Giles,

 

I'll phone up DJH as well. 

 

Interesting, especially as I've been asked by DJH for some help only a few months ago. I wonder if the upgrades mentioned will ever now take place? It's over 20 years since DJH made a new 4mm loco kit.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[MikeParkin65]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks for that, Giles,

 

I'll phone up DJH as well. 

 

Interesting, especially as I've been asked by DJH for some help only a few months ago. I wonder if the upgrades mentioned will ever now take place? It's over 20 years since DJH made a new 4mm loco kit.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Good news if Ellis Clarke have bought the range - seem a very diligent and forward looking company. They'll have plans I'm sure. 

[lezz01]

The problem is that you can't scale gravity and gravity runs everything. It determines the force acting on an object within a gravity well and everything reacts in proportion to it's mass. You also have to factor in inertia to move an object you have to apply a force strong enough to overcome inertia and once that force falls below the point that it can no longer overcome inertia then it all stops and will topple over in the direction of the pull of gravity.

Regards Lez.    

[Willie Whizz]

14 hours ago, Mark Laidlay said:

Further to the topic of GC locos and designs here's a ROD operating at Hexham in 1968, Frank Stamford photo.

Doesn't the lack of a smokebox number enhance the looks of this engine!

[John Isherwood]

8 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

Doesn't the lack of a smokebox number enhance the looks of this engine!

 

NIMHO.

 

CJI.

[gr.king]

2 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

I’m the opposite, I have dyslexia but with numbers/mathematics, dyscalculia I think it’s called…anyway, same thing, got told in school by my Maths teacher that I’m lazy for not learning my timestables and that I won’t amount to anything if I didn’t and also that I wouldn’t have a calculator with me on my person all the time. You can imagine how good I felt walking up to him last September, at a reunion, and showed the calculator on my iPhone…. I think the words “what the f**k’s that then” came out of my mouth 🤣. 

But I run a business with my family, I organise all the stock, the ordering, I look after the first stage of the accounts and invoices for my customers Australia wide….

 

Plus any grammatical or spelling mistakes were flogged out of me by Tony at Little Bytham the last 7 years. 
 

 

To summarise; you’re never alone. 

Oddly enough, I could never remember times tables when being pressed to learn them, before the age of 11 at junior school. Only during my early/mid teens did matters improve, as I got interested in the less mundane aspects of maths, getting grade A at A level in due course, and now I can usually come up with most of the multiples up to 12x12 either from memory, or by only a moment's thought, having taught myself quick ways of mentally working out exact or approximate answers to awkward sums, subtractions, multiples and a certain amount of division too.

Edited January 29 by gr.king

[t-b-g]

58 minutes ago, Willie Whizz said:

Doesn't the lack of a smokebox number enhance the looks of this engine!

 

As does the Robinson style chimney.

[t-b-g]

2 hours ago, Harry Lund said:

Tony.  Apologies if I have missed any discussion about the future of OO Gauge DJH kits.   Geoff West visited York today.  The subject came up so we rang DJH.  The range has been sold to Ellis Clark Trains.  Giles  

 

It is interesting that the announcement of the sale is released this way. It takes the wind out the sails of any announcement DJH or Ellis Clark (no "e" as you have put but others have added it) might want to make.

Edited January 29 by t-b-g
To add content

[Captain Kernow]

17 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

When it comes to modelling an actual prototype, then most RTP items are of limited use. In Bytham's case, nothing ready-to-plant is of use, though kits have been helpful to a limited extent.

 

 

So, although RTR/RTP might enable time to be saved, if one wants the widest variety of locos/stock, running through a representation of an actual prototype, then it's lots of kit-building and scratch-building. Which is fine by me.  

Thanks for the photos of the lovely structures on 'Little Bytham', Tony. I was particularly interested in your view on 'RTP' buildings.

 

I have scratchbuilt quite a few structures in my time, for various layouts and friends and was also initially dubious about how useful resin 'Ready to Plant' buildings could be, when they first started appearing.

 

In the early days of my P4 layout 'Callow Lane', I used some RTP buildings as 'place holders', including a MR goods shed and a MR signalbox, but both were ultimately replaced with kit buildings (both of which were customised, however).

 

Two RTP buildings that I have used, however, were a Hornby 'Skaledale' Midland water tower, which I understand was based on the yellow brick example still standing at Ashchurch, Glos. This is the unaltered structure temporarily in place on the layout (before scenic work was done):

 

I was considering scratchbuilding a model of the very similar water tower at nearby Charfield (also happily still extant), but I then reasoned that such structures were of a 'company standard' and that if I wanted a Midland water tower, then the Hornby example could perhaps be improved.

 

This is the same model after a full repaint and replacement of the rather clunky ladder and handrails with more scale examples:

 

Eventually, scenic work was completed and the building planted on the layout:

 

 

 

Elsewhere on the layout, I have used another Hornby resin building, 'Bens Books', seen here in original guise:

 

This was then converted into a chip shop!

 

 

 

[John Besley]

Going back to the subject of haulage capacity, many years ago I used to help run the EM gauge 'Westbury' model railway that was built in the old restaurant area at Paignton Station on the TSR (as it was in those days) we ran as far as I can remember mostly Ks kit built locos that all used 5 pole motors, one prise performer was a 56xx that slowly hauled a rake of 70 kit built coal wagons all day and everyday... interestingly she performed slightly better running bunker first. 

 

As far as I can remember all the locos were built by Graham Stevens of Springside Models, most of the regular engines needed their valve gear either bushing or replacing every winter

[sandra]

18 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I've now painted my two latest Little Engines locos...........

 

 

Thanks to (sought-after) suggestions on here, the J11 is more-accurate than when it first appeared. 

 

 

Unlike the J11, there is no RTR equivalent of this O4/7, so kit-building it has to be.

 

Ian Wilson's Pacific range of front numberplates is most-useful, for every class member's number is present on a sheet. 

 

Both will be weathered, and both are no more than 'layout locos'.

 

This O4/7 is on a layout............

 

 

However, it's rather more than a 'layout loco'. It's Geoff Kent's work, running on his EM Black Lion layout. 

 

Did he use a Little Engine's kit? I don't know, though it's possible. Whatever, it's certainly a splendid loco! 

 

 

Hello Tony,

 

63600 is an unlikely visitor to North Wales for in 1957 she was shedded at Darnall. I don’t think she was built by Geoff Kent for I had a look at her today and I think she was probably built by Roy Jackson as she seems typical of Roy’s work. The next time I speak to Geoff I’ll ask him who built her. She has a Portescap motor and runs very well and whilst I’m not absolutely sure I think she was built from a Little Engines kit.

 

I took some photographs of her this afternoon on Black Lion Crossing.

 

Black Lion Crossing is an amazing layout, beautifully observed and for those who like me come from the Welsh border area, very evocative 

 

Sandra

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

Thanks for the photos of the lovely structures on 'Little Bytham', Tony. I was particularly interested in your view on 'RTP' buildings.

 

I have scratchbuilt quite a few structures in my time, for various layouts and friends and was also initially dubious about how useful resin 'Ready to Plant' buildings could be, when they first started appearing.

 

In the early days of my P4 layout 'Callow Lane', I used some RTP buildings as 'place holders', including a MR goods shed and a MR signalbox, but both were ultimately replaced with kit buildings (both of which were customised, however).

 

Two RTP buildings that I have used, however, were a Hornby 'Skaledale' Midland water tower, which I understand was based on the yellow brick example still standing at Ashchurch, Glos. This is the unaltered structure temporarily in place on the layout (before scenic work was done):

 

I was considering scratchbuilding a model of the very similar water tower at nearby Charfield (also happily still extant), but I then reasoned that such structures were of a 'company standard' and that if I wanted a Midland water tower, then the Hornby example could perhaps be improved.

 

This is the same model after a full repaint and replacement of the rather clunky ladder and handrails with more scale examples:

 

Eventually, scenic work was completed and the building planted on the layout:

 

 

 

Elsewhere on the layout, I have used another Hornby resin building, 'Bens Books', seen here in original guise:

 

This was then converted into a chip shop!

 

 

 

Thanks Captain,

 

You've certainly exploited the potential of those RTP structures. They look rather good, especially in place. 

 

The only thing I'd question (and it's an observation, rather than a criticism) is the depth of the mortar courses between the bricks. 

 

On RTP structures I've observed, they seem to be much too deep, especially in close-up. On most actual brick-built structures, the course is inset less than the width of an average man's finger. 

 

'Brick' Plastikard sheets also show this 'deep mortar' tendencies. Which is why the likes of Ian Wilson uses brick papers (as I do) for representing brickwork, and why Bob Dawson uses individual 'bricks' when he makes his models. Though brick papers have no 'depth' at all for the courses, I think they look more-realistic than very deep mortar lines.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

9 minutes ago, sandra said:

Hello Tony,

 

63600 is an unlikely visitor to North Wales for in 1957 she was shedded at Darnall. I don’t think she was built by Geoff Kent for I had a look at her today and I think she was probably built by Roy Jackson as she seems typical of Roy’s work. The next time I speak to Geoff I’ll ask him who built her. She has a Portescap motor and runs very well and whilst I’m not absolutely sure I think she was built from a Little Engines kit.

 

I took some photographs of her this afternoon on Black Lion Crossing.

 

Black Lion Crossing is an amazing layout, beautifully observed and for those who like me come from the Welsh border area, very evocative 

 

Sandra

Thanks for these images Sandra,

 

In 1955/'56, 63600 was at 39A (Gorton), which is the code the loco carries, meaning it could well have been seen in that period in North Wales. 

 

In 1959, it was also at Gorton (by now 9G). I assume it was at Darnall in between those dates? 

 

Interestingly, like mine, it's fitted with vacuum brakes for train-working - rare for an O4/7. 

 

63634 was shedded at 41J (Langwith), which means I saw it in the Sheffield/Retford area. So, it could have made it south to Little Bytham, travelling as far as New England. 

 

Where I saw 63600, I cannot remember; probably at Chester, dropping down off the CLC to the GC as it crossed the Chester-Birkenhead line alongside Brook Lane. Or, in the opposite direction, blasting up from Liverpool Road. Like you (as you know), I originate from that part of the world.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The only thing I'd question (and it's an observation, rather than a criticism) is the depth of the mortar courses between the bricks. 

 

On RTP structures I've observed, they seem to be much too deep, especially in close-up. On most actual brick-built structures, the course is inset less than the width of an average man's finger. 

 

'Brick' Plastikard sheets also show this 'deep mortar' tendencies. Which is why the likes of Ian Wilson uses brick papers (as I do) for representing brickwork, and why Bob Dawson uses individual 'bricks' when he makes his models. Though brick papers have no 'depth' at all for the courses, I think they look more-realistic than very deep mortar lines.

Thanks for your kind comments, Tony and in fact, I do agree with you regarding the depth (or lack of it) in 4mm brick mortar courses.

 

I actually like the brickpapers in the Scalescenes and Howard Scenics ranges very much and have used their products, albeit in modified form, on the same layout.

 

The first card and brickpaper buildings I constructed for the layout were these Scalescenes cottages, with (mostly) my own windows:

 

I also modified a Scalescenes 'freebie' warehouse, as part of a rail-served factory:

 

I then built a couple of rows of Howard Scenics cottages, again with my own windows:

 

 

Now planted on the layout:

 

Then some modified Howard Scenics cottage backs:

 

 

Whilst I agree that the depth of the mortar courses on some of the resin buildings can be too much (implying loss of structural integrity if on the real thing?!), I think there is also an alternative argument in favour of some kind of visible mortar course, because that is what the eye expects to see...

 

My favourite material for scratchbuilding structures remains Slaters Plasticard, such as on this scratchbuilt shunters hut (based on one at Exeter St Davids):

 

Bear in mind that so many of our model photos these days are taken with modern digital close-up cameras (phones) at distances rather closer than 'normal viewing distances'...

 

 

[Tony Wright]

38 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

Thanks for your kind comments, Tony and in fact, I do agree with you regarding the depth (or lack of it) in 4mm brick mortar courses.

 

I actually like the brickpapers in the Scalescenes and Howard Scenics ranges very much and have used their products, albeit in modified form, on the same layout.

 

The first card and brickpaper buildings I constructed for the layout were these Scalescenes cottages, with (mostly) my own windows:

 

I also modified a Scalescenes 'freebie' warehouse, as part of a rail-served factory:

 

I then built a couple of rows of Howard Scenics cottages, again with my own windows:

 

 

Now planted on the layout:

 

Then some modified Howard Scenics cottage backs:

 

 

Whilst I agree that the depth of the mortar courses on some of the resin buildings can be too much (implying loss of structural integrity if on the real thing?!), I think there is also an alternative argument in favour of some kind of visible mortar course, because that is what the eye expects to see...

 

My favourite material for scratchbuilding structures remains Slaters Plasticard, such as on this scratchbuilt shunters hut (based on one at Exeter St Davids):

 

Bear in mind that so many of our model photos these days are taken with modern digital close-up cameras (phones) at distances rather closer than 'normal viewing distances'...

 

 

Wonderful!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Northmoor]

21 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Good point Phil. On my layout, passenger trains are limited by space considerations to 9 coaches and goods trains to about 20 wagons. My RTR locos (some of which have had weight added and one tender-drive Airfix Castle remains in use) have no trouble with any of these. Most of the layout is level but there is a stretch of 1 in 100, some of which is on a 2'6" radius curve. The long passenger trains there are double-headed, imitating prototype practice.

I recall about 40 years ago a model shop putting 51 coaches behind an Airfix Scot (tender drive) and it just set off.  They'd run out of coaches so couldn't add any more.

[Andy Hayter]

6 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

It is interesting that the announcement of the sale is released this way. It takes the wind out the sails of any announcement DJH or Ellis Clark (no "e" as you have put but others have added it) might want to make.

 

I fear there may be a misunderstanding here but not wishing to raise rabbits, I will just say visit the Clark's website - no mention of taking over the business but a lot of cheap DJH 00 kits alongside the second hand offerings.

[t-b-g]

16 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

I fear there may be a misunderstanding here but not wishing to raise rabbits, I will just say visit the Clark's website - no mention of taking over the business but a lot of cheap DJH 00 kits alongside the second hand offerings.

 

I have tried and failed to find stuff on their website. Their filter system beats me every time. Of course that could mean that they have just bought up the remaining stock and are selling them off.

[Red Devil]

10 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

I have tried and failed to find stuff on their website. Their filter system beats me every time. Of course that could mean that they have just bought up the remaining stock and are selling them off.

This 'might' work for you.....reading the info as they're listed as new, you may well be right.

Sorry thought it may not.....link won't embed easily but they're on the Clark railworks site rather than the Ellis Clark site.

Edited January 29 by Red Devil
attempting to get link to work.