Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

And no smokebox! Also no blastpipe, blower etc.

There is a sort of smokebox, or at least a door, though the throatplate is way too far forwards.

 

There isn't the horizontal fitting for the dart to turn in, either.

 

Which means, as I've said before, why bother? Internal detail like that (which is incorrect, anyway) must add considerably to the cost.

 

With Golden Age seemingly having disappeared, I wonder what that A4 might be worth now? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, lezz01 said:

Ok if you don't accept the Autobahn as a valid reason for stupidly fast cars I raise you the nordschleife circuit at the Nürburgring. You pay per lap. Look up something called YouTube corner for the greatest videos of idiots crashing their own cars on a circuit so dangerous that it was dropped from F1 for being too dangerous. It's worth looking up as there is endless hours of entertainment just waiting for you and before you ask yes I have (been round it) and no I didn't (crash) although I did have a bit of a code brown my first go at YouTube corner as it's quite deceptive and the accident starts at the exit of the previous corner. Even though I had put in about a hundred hours on a simulator it still nearly caught me out, as I said it's quite deceptive.

Regards Lez. 

I suspect very few people with very fast vehicles would consider the Autobahn as a justification.  It isn't about the tops peed, much more about how quickly it will get up to a given speed (and maintain it through corners).  I've had some pretty quick cross-country rides on a motorbike where I barely exceeded 70.

[John Isherwood]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

They're just pining for the days when they were scraping the molded handrails off their Triang B12.

 

Yeah - it was called 'modelling'; remember that?

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

19 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

The problem is that you confuse need and want.

 

Throughout most of Europe the maximum speed limit on public roads is 130kph or less.  With a few exceptions then there is no need for  a car that goes faster.  So please explain Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, Lamborghini a whole raft of standard production cars and a host of others.

Fat wallets and small willies. ☠️

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, gr.king said:

A further note: Having read the earlier assertions that the added cost due to incorporation of un-seen detail in an RTR model is now "negligible" or "insignificant", isn't that very much a matter of opinion? Irrespective of my willingness or otherwise to put un-necessary extra time and cost into models that I make for myself, as a potential customer for commercial products, any un-necessary extra cost is to me definitely significant, and cannot be described as negligible. It may be handy for a manufacturer who can make extra profit from an "enhanced" product to claim that the additional attributable cost is "negligible" or well worthwhile, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is so...

 

I object equally to the fact that even those of us with absolutely no need of, and no intention of using DCC and sound, now have to pay the significant extra cost of locos being manufactured with additional wiring, circuit boards and strange internal configurations purely to facilitate the fitting of digital gizmos, often with the added detriment of compromised visible features and both motor and weight in non-ideal positions.

 

The point is they will still be the same price if you left all the gubbins and extra detail out. 

 

That's why you are getting moans that older and less detailed models are the same prices as the new "super detailed" ones. They cost the same to make.

 

Jason

[Bernard Lamb]

36 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Fat wallets and small willies. ☠️

SWMBO is not covered by either of those categories.

But she does like to drive at 250kmph on the Autobahn between Berlin and Leipzig. Strict speed  limits around Berlin but unrestricted further south.

Benard

[gr.king]

25 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The point is they will still be the same price if you left all the gubbins and extra detail out. 

 

Simply cannot be true. All extra time and all extra effort cost money. Of course, if that goes towards incorporating something that you want, largely at somebody else's expense, then you will argue that it costs nothing.

[Andy Hayter]

6 hours ago, lezz01 said:

Ok if you don't accept the Autobahn as a valid reason for stupidly fast cars I raise you the nordschleife circuit at the Nürburgring. You pay per lap. Look up something called YouTube corner for the greatest videos of idiots crashing their own cars on a circuit so dangerous that it was dropped from F1 for being too dangerous. It's worth looking up as there is endless hours of entertainment just waiting for you and before you ask yes I have (been round it) and no I didn't (crash) although I did have a bit of a code brown my first go at YouTube corner as it's quite deceptive and the accident starts at the exit of the previous corner. Even though I had put in about a hundred hours on a simulator it still nearly caught me out, as I said it's quite deceptive.

Regards Lez. 

 

So just to choose one car, how many of the 2.4m Mercedes C class - top speed up to 280kph - have been to a track day at Nuerburgring, Spa, or any of the other hundreds of circuits that allow those with a need for speed?

 

But I think we are now way off WW and should revert to modelling.

[Tony Wright]

45 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The point is they will still be the same price if you left all the gubbins and extra detail out. 

 

That's why you are getting moans that older and less detailed models are the same prices as the new "super detailed" ones. They cost the same to make.

 

Jason

Good evening Jason,

 

Returning to that Golden Age A4, it cost me extra to have all the DCC stuff taken out! So leaving out all those gubbins was actually more expensive. 

 

Weird, or what? 

 

I'm with Graeme King on this one. Those who have no need of (nor want) DCC, have to pay for it in one form or another, whatever the make of RTR loco. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Steamport Southport]

14 minutes ago, gr.king said:

Simply cannot be true. All extra time and all extra effort cost money. Of course, if that goes towards incorporating something that you want, largely at somebody else's expense, then you will argue that it costs nothing.

 

It is though. One of the manufacturers has even posted so on this thread!

 

You do know who "McC" is I take it?

 

 

Why do you think a Hornby locomotive from 1980ish that has had hardly any improvements apart from minor ones costs £189.99 RRP

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lms-fowler-4p-2-6-4t-2300-big-four-centenary-collection-era-3-r30271

 

Yet a brand new Hornby A1 costs just a few pounds more?

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lner-class-a1-4-6-2-4478-hermit-big-four-centenary-collection-era-3-r30270

 

It's the way the suppliers work I'm afraid. It's like a restaurant, they have a set price. If you don't want chips with your meal you are still paying the same price.

 

 

Jason

[John Isherwood]

57 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The point is they will still be the same price if you left all the gubbins and extra detail out. 

 

That's why you are getting moans that older and less detailed models are the same prices as the new "super detailed" ones. They cost the same to make.

 

Jason

 

So the extra design, tooling and finishing time costs nothing?

 

Rubbish - opportunist suppliers use the price precedent of expensive new, high spec. models to charge silly prices for basic, development paid-for, old design models.

 

If I've learned one thing in seven-and-a-half decades, it's that nothing costs nothing!

 

CJI.

[Dunsignalling]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

 

If I've learned one thing in seven-and-a-half decades, it's that nothing costs nothing!

 

CJI 

No, it doesn't, but some things cost less than the benefit they confer to sales...

Edited June 8, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[Bernard Lamb]

Just to clear up the screw coupling point.

 

 UK steam era.

 

 

 

 

 UIC and modern UK.

 

 

The GA A4 appears to me to be wrong. Not the only error it would seem. At the price asked I would expect a lot better. 

Bernard

 

[Bucoops]

Economies of scale - the RTR manufacturers being discussed don't do small runs. Say, for example, it costs £5k more on design and tooling to turn a regular (railroad?) spec model into a premium model, and an extra £4 on materials and assembly - but you sell 5,000 units - each unit has gone up £5 but the retail price difference between a Railroad Cl47 and a Railroad Plus Cl47 is about £30. Totally figures plucked out the air but hopefully it makes sense?

 

Buyers feel like they are getting a better model for £30 more - and the manufacturer is making more per unit.

[Jesse Sim]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Fat wallets and small willies. ☠️

You called?

[Tony Wright]

With all this talk of RTR prices, isn't it gratifying to be one of a (diminishing?) band of modellers who isn't RTR-reliant?

 

I'm not suggesting kits haven't gone up, but the difference in prices is getting closer. Not only that, members of that merry band can please themselves how much detail (or not) they put on their models, whether it can be seen or not.

 

By the way, I don't know who 'McC' is either, though I'm glad he (or she?) has posted on here. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[MikeParkin65]

46 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

 

 

By the way, I don't know who 'McC' is either, though I'm glad he (or she?) has posted on here. 

One of the directors of  Accurascale whose Deltic you very highly rate. Has lit cab dials you know yet is only £169 in DC form :)

Edited June 8, 2023 by MikeParkin65

[McC]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

One of the directors of  Accurascale whose Deltic you very highly rate. Has lit cab dials you know yet is only £169 in DC form :)

 

Indeed run 1 was only £160 :)

I’m the Managing Director of accurascale and irish railway models. My apologies if my signature didn’t give it away :)

My general point is that a wagon at £40 from some suppliers versus one from

us, say, at £20 odd doesn’t infer relative quality any more and the £20 wagon might have 130 parts versus the £40 wagon with 50 and poorer painting and printing. It’s a tough time to be a consumer but a wealth of choice and competition is great for the hobby and one of the core reasons accurascale was established. From our point of view we’re entering a golden age. 

 

[MikeCW]

I have a slightly different starting point when considering the “high fidelity” rolling stock offered by Accurascale and others.  The late Iain Rice in his 1993 book on plastic wagon kits put it better than I probably could. He poses the question whether each item of rolling stock on one’s layout is “to be to a prize winning standard” in its own right or to be part of the goods stock of the layout. If the latter, one of his main requirements is that it blends in with the setting and the rest of the stock. Nothing, he writes, makes an OK wagon look less than OK than being marshalled next to one “with all the bells and whistles”.

 

All the rolling stock on my modest layout is either kit-built or has been “personalised” in some way – detailed, repainted and weathered. Many vehicles are modelled from photographs of individual wagons.  Certainly none are to “museum standard”. So my questions when considering a new release from a manufacturer will be: (1) is it a good fit for my layout’s location and period; (2) can I ensure that it “blends in” with the rest of the rolling stock; and (3) am I prepared to pay the asking price?

(Note that I haven’t asked whether I need the item. None of us “needs” a model railway.)

 

The first question can usually be answered without too much agonising.  Answering “yes” to the second usually means that, at the least, weathering is required. (Some might regard this as bringing the new wagon “down” to my standards. But each to their own.) And answering the third will probably depend on my mood and sense of affluence at the time.

 

Personally, I greatly admire the extraordinary fidelity of these new releases, whether or not the detail can be seen. Do I resent the price margin (whatever it is or even if there is any) that this extra detail has added?  Not particularly. In fact the price problem seems to lie with older models and new releases of old mouldings coat-tailing in price on the newer models. But detail which is invisible (Rice’s “bells and whistles”?) when the wagon or van trundles by doesn’t figure in the three questions above and will have no influence on my decision whether or not to buy. I will look at the price as if it were for a goods vehicle with no hidden detail. As others have pointed out, if the items sell at the prices asked by the manufacturers, then the manufacturers are acting as sensible commercial organisations should. When and if buyer resistance increases and demand falls away, then prices may stabilise.

 

All that said, I am fortunate not to be dependent on RTR products.  In the last three years I have bought two Bachmann LMS brake vans and two Bachmann ex-LNWR Coal Tanks, one of which has been fitted with home-brewed auto-train vacuum gear.  I prefer to wrestle with kits and occasional modifications to second-hand RTR.  I don’t regard that as a more virtuous or morally superior form of railway modelling.  I just get more satisfaction, eventually(!), from it. If others derive satisfaction from the possession, display and operation of pristine examples of these high fidelity models, then good on them I say.

Edited June 9, 2023 by MikeCW
Grammar and clarification

[St Enodoc]

9 minutes ago, MikeCW said:

I have a slightly different starting point when considering the “high fidelity” rolling stock offered by Accurascale and others.  The late Iain Rice in his 1993 book on plastic wagon kits put it better than I probably could. He poses the question whether each item of rolling stock on one’s layout is “to be to a prize winning standard” in its own right or to be part of the goods stock of the layout. If the latter, one of his main requirements is that they blend in with the setting and the rest of the stock. Nothing, he writes, makes an OK wagon look less than OK than being marshalled next to one “with all the bells and whistles”.

A very clear summary of the meaning of "layout loco/coach/wagon".

[Tony Wright]

7 hours ago, McC said:

 

Indeed run 1 was only £160 :)

I’m the Managing Director of accurascale and irish railway models. My apologies if my signature didn’t give it away :)

My general point is that a wagon at £40 from some suppliers versus one from

us, say, at £20 odd doesn’t infer relative quality any more and the £20 wagon might have 130 parts versus the £40 wagon with 50 and poorer painting and printing. It’s a tough time to be a consumer but a wealth of choice and competition is great for the hobby and one of the core reasons accurascale was established. From our point of view we’re entering a golden age. 

 

Good morning,

 

Thanks for that.

 

I hope my wee J69 is of some little use to you...........

 

 

 

You may borrow it as long as you wish.

 

Built from a South Eastern Finecast kit, the permutations for this class are numerous in the extreme; I wish you well.

 

As for your Deltic...............

 

 

 

The finest model example of this great class I've ever seen (weathering by Geoff Haynes), with incredible performance to boot! So what if this scene is anomalous by five years?

 

It's interesting when visitors come, the most-frequently requested loco to run is your Deltic!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

7 hours ago, McC said:

 

Indeed run 1 was only £160 :)

I’m the Managing Director of accurascale and irish railway models. My apologies if my signature didn’t give it away :)

My general point is that a wagon at £40 from some suppliers versus one from

us, say, at £20 odd doesn’t infer relative quality any more and the £20 wagon might have 130 parts versus the £40 wagon with 50 and poorer painting and printing. It’s a tough time to be a consumer but a wealth of choice and competition is great for the hobby and one of the core reasons accurascale was established. From our point of view we’re entering a golden age. 

 

You are writing to Railway Moddellers. Most of them, me included, do not read instructions. Don't expect people to get as far as reading signatures.😃

Bernard

[Buhar]

7 hours ago, McC said:

My apologies if my signature didn’t give it away :)

The forum view I use doesn't show signatures at all, so I and others making a similar viewing choice would not see that. That's not a criticism or accusation of subterfuge, just an observation as to why we missed your declaration.

Alan

[McC]

11 minutes ago, Buhar said:

The forum view I use doesn't show signatures at all, so I and others making a similar viewing choice would not see that. That's not a criticism or accusation of subterfuge, just an observation as to why we missed your declaration.

Alan

Aha! That i did not

know and it’s good to do so. Thank you Alan!

[Dave John]

Going back a couple of pages to Tony having to break a glue to remove a roof and then stick it back on. 

 

I use magnets. Not only for van roofs, but coach sides as well. Makes painting and final assembly much easier and if you need to get back in for detailing or adding weight removal is dead easy. 

 

A rough example. 

 

 

 

Thats a 3mm cube magnet on the roof and a bit of tinplate from a paper fastener on the body. 

 

I think some rtr models in the larger scales do this sort of thing, but it would be easy to do with plastic mouldings with pockets for magnet and keeper moulded in.