Wright writes.....

[Steamport Southport]

19 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm told one should take the roof off for maximum wow factor.

 

To be fair, that's something that Hornby and Bachmann have been doing for a few years. 

 

All in there if you care to look. It just needs painting!

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

To be fair, that's something that Hornby and Bachmann have been doing for a few years. 

 

All in there if you care to look. It just needs painting!

 

Ah. The last RTR brake van I bought was the Bachmann LMS Midland-type, quite a few years ago when it first came out. I didn't think to take the roof off!

[Tony Wright]

33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm told one should take the roof off for maximum wow factor.

Good evening Stephen,

 

A good idea............

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Roger Sunderland]

That’s lovely Tony. Are you going to review Accurascale’s new Siphon G? 
IMHO simply the best rtr coach/van ever made!!

[polybear]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Stephen,

 

A good idea............

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

All very nice - but for something rarely, if ever seen I do wonder how much extra the cost is?

[Bernard Lamb]

1 minute ago, polybear said:

 

All very nice - but for something rarely, if ever seen I do wonder how much extra the cost is?

As Guy Williams once said. Ther are dials right up under the roof in a King. If I did not include them I would know.

I find it quite amazing that RTR has reached that level.

Bernard

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, polybear said:

All very nice - but for something rarely, if ever seen I do wonder how much extra the cost is?

 

It's probably marginal - something said about such detail several times in various Accurascale topics. I doubt the firm would have let the designer go to town like that if it was going to increase the price very much.

 

It would be interesting, though, to see a cost breakdown of the various stages - research, CAD, toolmaking, production and assembly, and shipping. My bet would be that the first two are insignificant compared to the rest and once the CAD has been fed to the CNC machine, it probably makes little difference how complex the shape is. Rails were able to commission the 1898 version at the only £6 more. I doubt that's all design expense. (That's the version I have.)

Edited June 7, 2023 by Compound2632

[John Isherwood]

3 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

All very nice - but for something rarely, if ever seen I do wonder how much extra the cost is?

 

Nobody will ever convince me that the cost of the totally pointless tool-making , assembly and painting time that this invisible detailing incurs is 'negligible'.

 

It's all about one-up-manship ; our model has more detail than your model. Meanwhile, model prices go through the ceiling!

 

One day, the Emperor's new clothes will be seen for what they are; and a canny newcomer will produce models that have just as much detail as can be seen when on the track. The prices may be something of a revelation!

 

CJI.

[McC]

Research and CAD usually is between 7-10% of the project cost with tooling around 20-30% of an initial 2-3 years output. so production, assembly and shipping would make up the other 60% or so. 

[McC]

3 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Nobody will ever convince me that the cost of the totally pointless tool-making , assembly and painting time that this invisible detailing incurs is 'negligible'.

 

It's all about one-up-manship ; our model has more detail than your model. Meanwhile, model prices go through the ceiling!

 

One day, the Emperor's new clothes will be seen for what they are; and a canny newcomer will produce models that have just as much detail as can be seen when on the track. The prices may be something of a revelation!

 

CJI.

 

As an example we could replace all the lovely turned metal sprung buffers with fixed plastic mouldings and save about 75p a model. Negligible and that’s on the high end of detailing costs :) Ultimately it’s about what the market demands and will buy. If highly detailed wasn’t selling no one would make it. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by McC

[John Isherwood]

1 minute ago, McC said:

 

As an example we could replace all the lovely turned metal sprung buffers with fixed plastic mouldings and save about 75p a model. Negligible and that’s on the high end of detailing costs :) Ultimately it’s about what the market demands and will buy. If highly detailed wasn’t selling no one would make it. 

 

Spring buffers - what percentage of buyers will ever use them; tension-locks mean the buffers never touch? If you are in the tiny minority who NEED spring buffers, it has been perfectly acceptable for decades to fit your own.

 

The market has NOT demanded invisible detail - competing manufacturers are in an ' arms race' to add ever more 'twiddly bits', and we modellers have no choice but to pay the price demanded.

 

Yes - this pointless detail sells; if you want models you pay the asking price or do without - but don't imagine we are all happy about it! I, for one, have virtually stopped buying RTR; prices are totally out-of-hand - and I could afford them.

 

CJI.

[Barry Ten]

8 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

The market has NOT demanded invisible detail - competing manufacturers are in an ' arms race' to add ever more 'twiddly bits', and we modellers have no choice but to pay the price demanded.

 

CJI.

 

I generally buy models on a voluntary basis, based on my desires and budgetary means.

[Compound2632]

26 minutes ago, McC said:

Research and CAD usually is between 7-10% of the project cost with tooling around 20-30% of an initial 2-3 years output. so production, assembly and shipping would make up the other 60% or so. 

 

Interesting to see my suspicion confirmed.

 

I suppose those who are offended by interior detailing can always rip it out, confident in the knowledge that it's had little effect on their wallet. Even a 10% cost difference on CAD and tooling is only £3.40 on a £34 model, so it's not an amount that would particularly mollify @cctransuk.

 

I notice, though, that @McC makes no mention of margin, either theirs or the retailers' - if that is, say, 30%, any variance in the design and tooling cost is proportionately smaller - down to £2.40.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Compound2632

[polybear]

8 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Yes - this pointless detail sells; if you want models you pay the asking price or do without - but don't imagine we are all happy about it! I, for one, have virtually stopped buying RTR; prices are totally out-of-hand - and I could afford them.

 

CJI.

 

I for one was somewhat taken aback with the price of the new Dapol/Rails Coach (OK, Inspection Saloon) announced a few days ago - £150 😲

For nottalot more (£19) you can have an Accurascale Deltic - which is where my money's going.

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Roger Sunderland said:

That’s lovely Tony. Are you going to review Accurascale’s new Siphon G? 
IMHO simply the best rtr coach/van ever made!!

Good evening Roger,

 

Unlikely; Andy York reviews Accurascale's products.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[McC]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting to see my suspicion confirmed.

 

I suppose those who are offended by interior detailing can always rip it out, confident in the knowledge that it's had little effect on their wallet. Even a 10% cost difference on CAD and tooling is only £3.40 on a £34 model, so it's not an amount that would particularly mollify @cctransuk.

 

I notice, though, that @McC makes no mention of margin, either theirs or the retailers' - if that is, say, 30%, any variance in the design and tooling cost is proportionately smaller - down to £2.40.

 

If  you assume (broadly correctly) 30 each for shop and manufacturer you can half that number again. You can rapidly see how the cost becomes ‘negligible’ in real terms. If for the sake of a pound you can add ‘invisible’ detail then that’s a pound well spent :) 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, McC said:

If for the sake of a pound you can add ‘invisible’ detail then that’s a pound well spent :) 

 

At that rate you could add a pound for a version without interior detail...

[Tony Wright]

I had no idea that the brake van in question had full interior detail; until Stephen (Compound 2632) suggested I take the roof off. Which wasn't difficult - just a few beads of glue to break, even though there was an ominous cracking sound! I've now re-fixed it, which probably means it'll never come off again. 

 

Since, even with my powerful photofloods, it's impossible to see anything inside without the roof off, it does beg the question - why bother? I suppose it's because it can be done, though I have no idea of what extra costs might be incurred. 

 

I have to admit, I haven't bothered to look inside other manufacturers' equivalents for my reviews, and remain blissfully ignorant of whether other brake vans have full interiors or not. Since in every prototype picture I've looked at it's also impossible to see inside a brake van (unless it's gutted, like the lovely model one seen recently), then I ask again - why? 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

I ask again - why? 

 

To which, I think the best answer, since it's been demonstrated that there is very little effect on price, is: why not?

 

At least it opens up the possibility of discussing whether the interior is the correct colour.

 

There is also scope for detailing the interior: a guard, obviously, but also his register on the desk, etc. I wonder if it would be possible to fit a camera and have the guard figure animated, so that he could be seen turning the handle of the brake standard when the driver whistles for brakes - the possibilities of DCC are endless...

[Northmoor]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Spring buffers - what percentage of buyers will ever use them; tension-locks mean the buffers never touch? If you are in the tiny minority who NEED spring buffers, it has been perfectly acceptable for decades to fit your own.

 

The market has NOT demanded invisible detail - competing manufacturers are in an ' arms race' to add ever more 'twiddly bits', and we modellers have no choice but to pay the price demanded.

 

Yes - this pointless detail sells; if you want models you pay the asking price or do without - but don't imagine we are all happy about it! I, for one, have virtually stopped buying RTR; prices are totally out-of-hand - and I could afford them.

 

CJI.

What people WANT and what they NEED are often very different things, but any number of products (cars, domestic appliances, clothes, accessories) have demonstrated that they will pay considerably more for the former than what they will for the latter.  Even if they don't actually get the benefit of the more expensive, better product, they only have to "believe" they have benefitted.

 

I also rarely buy new RTR but in my experience, those that complain loudest about the price of RTR are never satisfied with the the price of the cheaper, lesser detailed product either.

[Tony Wright]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

To which, I think the best answer, since it's been demonstrated that there is very little effect on price, is: why not?

 

At least it opens up the possibility of discussing whether the interior is the correct colour.

 

There is also scope for detailing the interior: a guard, obviously, but also his register on the desk, etc. I wonder if it would be possible to fit a camera and have the guard figure animated, so that he could be seen turning the handle of the brake standard when the driver whistles for brakes - the possibilities of DCC are endless...

I wonder if the 'very little effect on price' has been demonstrated? 

 

I know when assisting RTR manufacturers with new models, I'm frequently told that adding extra (or different bits, say, a chimney) can cost thousands in extra tooling costs. Thousands which have to be recovered by selling the finished models. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I wonder if the 'very little effect on price' has been demonstrated? 

 

Well, that's what @McC was saying. But perhaps Accurascale doesn't pay its designers the six-figure salaries other firms do? (!)

[McC]

A tool costs between 5-8k (usd) and can contain multiple components (think of a tool as a sprue of parts) but over the lifetime of a model a smart manufacturer can make it work. 

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

 

Spring buffers - what percentage of buyers will ever use them; tension-locks mean the buffers never touch? If you are in the tiny minority who NEED spring buffers, it has been perfectly acceptable for decades to fit your own.

 

The market has NOT demanded invisible detail - competing manufacturers are in an ' arms race' to add ever more 'twiddly bits', and we modellers have no choice but to pay the price demanded.

 

Yes - this pointless detail sells; if you want models you pay the asking price or do without - but don't imagine we are all happy about it! I, for one, have virtually stopped buying RTR; prices are totally out-of-hand - and I could afford them.

 

CJI.

 

The problem is that you confuse need and want.

 

Throughout most of Europe the maximum speed limit on public roads is 130kph or less.  With a few exceptions then there is no need for  a car that goes faster.  So please explain Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, Lamborghini a whole raft of standard production cars and a host of others.

[lezz01]

46 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

The problem is that you confuse need and want.

 

Throughout most of Europe the maximum speed limit on public roads is 130kph or less.  With a few exceptions then there is no need for  a car that goes faster.  So please explain Ferrari, Porsche, Lotus, Lamborghini a whole raft of standard production cars and a host of others.

Autobahns.

Regards Lez.