Wright writes.....

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Tony Wright said:

The 'Thames-Clyde' on the MR and G&SWR, and the 'Thames-Forth' and, latterly, 'The Waverley' over the MR and the NBR.

 

All allocated to Holbeck, though? (Or did Haymarket engines take a turn on the Waverley?)

[Tony Wright]

It's been my privilege to have other A3s visit and run on LB. Including............

 

 

Another 60046. Built/painted by Roy Vinter.

 

 

60055. I think the work of Ray Flintoft. 

 

 

60066. Built/painted by John Houlden, now the property of Geoff West. 

 

 

60084. Sold on behalf of a widow, and now running on York after I got it going and changed the dome.

 

 

60096. Eric Kidd's work.

 

 

60097. Another of Eric's A3s.

 

 

Another 60097. Brought along by Tommy Mann.

 

 

60099 by Eric.

 

 

And 60101, also by Eric.

 

 

60112. Brought along very recently by Geoff West; John Houlden's work. 

 

 

And, the 1938 LNER weekend saw at least one A3 run.

 

Two of the modified Hornby A3s I used to own.........

 

 

60049. Detailed/modified by me, weathered by Tom Wright.

 

 

60054. Detailed/renumbered/renamed by me, weathered by Tom Foster, now running on York. 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

All allocated to Holbeck, though? (Or did Haymarket engines take a turn on the Waverley?)

I think Carlisle Canal's quartet of A3s did most of the work of the class over the Waverley, though Haymarket's number also frequently ran over it.

 

I don't think the 55A A3s worked over the Waverley (though there might have been an exception), but they did to St Enoch. 

 

Amusingly, I once wrote a piece for British Railways Illustrated, which mentioned SIR VISTO, FLAMINGO, CORONACH and BAYARDO, saying that they were the rarest of A3s to be seen. In the letters' column, a month or so later, came a response from a chap who couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. He lived in Hawick!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Does anyone know a source of M&GNR transfers in 4mm, please?

 

A few of the J40s, when they became LNER property, received LNER branding, but a few, though they were numbered in the LNER duplicate list, retained 'M&GNR' on their tenders until withdrawal during the war. It would be nice to build a model in this condition, in red-lined black. 

 

With the MR/M&GNR bit of Little Bytham being self-contained, it's my intention to build locos/trains representing pre-war/wartime/immediate post-war practice on the line (just for the fun of it). I've got a D9, I'm building a D2 (along with the one I'm re-building for Jesse Sim) and I've got a D3, as well as the pair of J3s, plus several LMS and LNER carriages, built and in the process of being built. I have plenty of appropriate wagons/vans. 

 

I know the J40s were mainly confined to the Eastern section of the joint, though they did work to Spalding and Peterborough. I'm sure it's conceivable that they worked further west.

 

Does anyone know if the MR 2Fs (which were all but identical to the J40s, especially those with larger drivers) worked over the MR/M&GNR metals at Little Bytham, please? 

 

Thanks in anticipation. 

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Does anyone know a source of M&GNR transfers in 4mm, please?

 

There are some on the HMRS MR loco & coach sheet but without checking, I can't say if they are the right style for the period - possibly the block style rather than the serif?

[Embedded link to HMRS website.]

 

That sheet is out of stock but I have several and am unlikely to want many (any) sets of M&GN loco lettering.

 

EDIT: Serifs, apparently:

 

 

[Embedded link to LNER Encyclopedia website.]

 

Is that engine brown or black? I'm not sure any British steam class has appeared in more colours than the Johnson standard goods: crimson lake, black, S&DJR blue, M&GN ochre and later brown, and if one allows the earlier Midland versions, dark and light green.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Compound2632

[Tony Wright]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There are some on the HMRS MR loco & coach sheet but without checking, I can't say if they are the right style for the period - possibly the block style rather than the serif?

[Embedded link to HMRS website.]

 

That sheet is out of stock but I have several and am unlikely to want many (any) sets of M&GN loco lettering.

 

EDIT: Serifs, apparently:

 

 

[Embedded link to LNER Encyclopedia website.]

 

Is that engine brown or black? I'm not sure any British steam class has appeared in more colours than the Johnson standard goods: crimson lake, black, S&DJR blue, M&GN ochre and later brown, and if one allows the earlier Midland versions, dark and light green.

Good morning Stephen,

 

Many thanks.

 

085 was unique among the M&GNR J40s in having an extended cab roof, with vertical handrails supporting it. 

 

The livery is black with red lining (see the top picture on page 191 of Yeadon's LNER Locos, Volume thirty-seven, part B). The lettering (as you surmise) was serif, but un-shaded. Anyway, I'd imagine any black shading would be invisible on black livery.  

 

I'll send you a PM.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[JeremyC]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

All allocated to Holbeck, though? (Or did Haymarket engines take a turn on the Waverley?)

From what I've read Haymarket A3s didn't normally work beyond Carlisle. However Harry Knox mentions in one of his books on Haymarket that there was a standing instruction at Haymarket that the A3 working the 'Waverley' should be 'Coaled for Leeds'.

Edited February 4, 2023 by JeremyC

[APOLLO]

20 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Amusingly, I once wrote a piece for British Railways Illustrated, which mentioned SIR VISTO, FLAMINGO, CORONACH and BAYARDO, saying that they were the rarest of A3s to be seen. In the letters' column, a month or so later, came a response from a chap who couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. He lived in Hawick!

 

In a book I have about the ECML (Book of the Great Northern), a lineside bridge inscription scrawled by a spotter noted "I died waiting for Sir Visto" !!

 

Unfortunately being a WCML Wiganer spotting in the late 60's it was just named Jubs and Brits for me. I saw every Brit, not too many Jubilees, one or two Scots and Duchesses. 

 

Brit15

[Tony Wright]

12 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

In a book I have about the ECML (Book of the Great Northern), a lineside bridge inscription scrawled by a spotter noted "I died waiting for Sir Visto" !!

 

Unfortunately being a WCML Wiganer spotting in the late 60's it was just named Jubs and Brits for me. I saw every Brit, not too many Jubilees, one or two Scots and Duchesses. 

 

Brit15

A friend recalls seeing 'I died waiting for CICERO' scrawled on a wall at Hadley Wood.

 

Did anyone at, say, Portobello scrawl 'I died waiting for WOOLWINDER'? 

 

I think the big difference for 'spotters at the south end of the ECML and those in Scotland was that, given time, every Pacific would work through to Kings Cross, no matter what their shed was. I saw running-in turns from Doncaster heading to places such as Leeds, York, Barkston and, eventually, London. Never say never, but it's just about inconceivable that, say, a Grantham-based A3, would run-in to Edinburgh. 

 

I know when I've compared my Ian Allan Combined Volumes with those of my Scottish friend, Eric Kidd, all those rare locos causing 'death' among southern 'spotters are underlined in his. Yet, Copley Hill's A1 names must have been written on fences all over Caledonia; in vain hope, judging by the blank spaces beneath their numbers/names in his Ian Allan Combines. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

The J21 featured a few days ago is now a good-runner...........

 

 

With the hopeless friction-fit drivers in the bin, and now with Markits on, she's a real smoothy. 

 

Despite 'alarmist' observations, the motor/gearbox combo fitted perfectly into the firebox, invisibly.

[gr.king]

I don't use a chassis jig but my home-built locos run smoothly, and I've never seen rust develop on the steel tyres or axles of examples fitted with those. Am I doing something wrong, such as taking care and repeatedly testing when building, using a very occasional spot of lubricant, or keeping models in dry conditions?

 

The re=wheeled J21 looks a neat result. I notice some "silvering" suggesting that the red lining transfers may not be secure. Did J21s retain red lining after the 1928/29 livery revisions put the large LNER on the tender and the loco number on the cab side?

[Tony Wright]

37 minutes ago, gr.king said:

I don't use a chassis jig but my home-built locos run smoothly, and I've never seen rust develop on the steel tyres or axles of examples fitted with those. Am I doing something wrong, such as taking care and repeatedly testing when building, using a very occasional spot of lubricant, or keeping models in dry conditions?

 

The re=wheeled J21 looks a neat result. I notice some "silvering" suggesting that the red lining transfers may not be secure. Did J21s retain red lining after the 1928/29 livery revisions put the large LNER on the tender and the loco number on the cab side?

Good evening Graeme,

 

I don't think you're doing anything wrong.

 

My universal use of a chassis jig ensures (at least for me) an accurate set of frames in fairly rapid time. 

 

I had no control over the environment in which the locos I'm mechanically-rebuilding existed. I've never suffered from rust on axles because the environment my locos run in is 'controlled'. Controlled by a de-humidifier, which is essential. 

 

By brief does not include solving problems with the bodywork/painting. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micklner]

Good to read the J21 has the whole of its cab area intact . I can turn my alarm off  🤣😂

 

I believe they would have been plain Black after 1928, as not used as a Passenger only Loco.

[2750Papyrus]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

I've never suffered from rust on axles

Sounds rather like CPO Pertwee's "twinge in screws".

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Good to read the J21 has the whole of its cab area intact . I can turn my alarm off  🤣😂

 

I believe they would have been plain Black after 1928, as not used as a Passenger only Loco.

Thanks Mick,

 

What I find interesting with regard to the use of lining on goods-only locos (or lack of it) is that the M&GNR J40s were red-lined after the LNER took over in the mid-'30s. 

 

I have no idea exactly which period the owner of the locos I'm working on is trying to replicate, other than it's 'LNER'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

The livery is black with red lining (see the top picture on page 191 of Yeadon's LNER Locos, Volume thirty-seven, part B). The lettering (as you surmise) was serif, but un-shaded. Anyway, I'd imagine any black shading would be invisible on black livery.  

 

I wonder if anyone can advise if there's any difference between the two pairs of M&GN serif lettering on the HMRS / PC Midland transfer sheet, and / or confirm that they are the right ones for late period M&GN?

[Tony Wright]

5 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I wonder if anyone can advise if there's any difference between the two pairs of M&GN serif lettering on the HMRS / PC Midland transfer sheet, and / or confirm that they are the right ones for late period M&GN?

It's not my area of knowledge, Stephen (there are many such places!),

 

But it looks like the pair just above centre of the sheet you showed would suit.

 

If I do a J40, I'd like it branded 'M&GN' on the tender, though several carried 'LNER', along with their duplicate list LNER numbers. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Clearwater]

On 01/02/2023 at 20:25, Tony Wright said:

How long do you want the list to be Andy? 

 

Seriously, what I've found with many duff runners is that at no point during the construction was 'due process' followed. I'll explain.........

 

1. The frames must be assembled dead square and true using a jig. The bearings should be inserted at this stage, with any inner axle bearings being soldered in place the tiniest bit higher than the outer ones (I'm speaking of rigid frames here). The trick is to broach out the inner bearing holes just a bit more than a snug fit, meaning one can raise the top hats slightly higher up than the rest when soldering in place. Tap any holes in spacers to take the shouldered screws for retaining bogies/ponies. If it's a flat spacer, solder an 8BA nut to its top and tap that to remove excess solder. Cut off any excess bearing material from the inside of the top-hats on the driven bearings, filing them flush with the inside of the frames - for OO; for EM, often just a small amount needs removing. 

 

2. The drivers should be fitted to their axles (Markits in my case) and fitted to the frames, but only after I've passed a one eight taper reamer through all the bearings. If the frames are true, then all the outer wheels should sit fair and square on a piece of mirror glass. If not (and this heresy to a real engineer!), twist the frames ever so slightly until all is true. 

 

3. Take the drivers off again, then solder the brake cross rods in place. Check that the drivers' flanges don't catch on those rods. Crankpins should be fixed at this stage and held in place with Loctite.

 

4. Fix the pick-up pads securely in place with epoxy. 

 

5. Assemble the motor/gearbox (or use a ready-made type) so that everything is absolutely sweet. Prior to fitting the motor, check that it runs perfectly; it's incredibly frustrating when trying to find a tight spot, to learn that the motor itself is the cause! Place the driven axle through the gearbox bushes and tighten up the gearwheel's grubscrew (Markits now produce a slotted axle). Check that the driven wheels rotate freely, then check again with the whole assembly in its place in the frames (this requires drivers being put on to and taken off their axles several times - a poor idea with friction-fit wheels. Indeed, I know of some P4 modellers who'll set up their frames with Markits wheels and axles, before finally fitting the drivers of their choice). Oil nothing at this stage. 

 

6. Paint any areas of the frames behind the drivers (I use a sable and and enamels), allow to dry, then re-fit all the drivers for (hopefully) the last time, taking out any excessive sideplay with spacing washers.  

 

7. Fit the pick-ups (.45mm nickel silver wire in my case) and take the wires to the motor brushes. For a live chassis, one side can both act as a return and also a stay to prevent the motor clattering around inside the body under load. 

 

8. Test that all the pick-ups are working. If they are, and the drive is on an inner axle (the centre one on a six-coupled), then that pair of drivers should rotate freely on level track (their being a fag-paper thickness higher that the rest). If the drive is on the rear axle, then the chassis should shuffle along. Oil the axles in their bearings at this stage. 

 

9. If coupling rods are laminated, hold them in place with cocktail sticks while soldering. If they're articulated, I solder them solid. Broach out any bearing holes to give a snug fit on the crankpins. Hold the rods in place with plastic sleeving, and test the running chassis. With luck, it shouldn't bind. If there is binding (it'll be at 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock one one or both sides), broach the appropriate holes until there's no binding. Just letting a chassis, plus rods, roll down an inclined plain is not a good enough test; it must be driven. When all is sweet, solder on the crankpin retaining washers, using a piece of instruction paper as a spacer and a barrier to solder, tearing it away once the job is done. Take off any excess crankpin with cutters and file, remembering to leave those with valve gear attached full-length. Oil at this stage, and run-in the chassis on a rolling road. I'm not a fan of Markits De-Luxe crankpins. 

 

10. Fix any brakes at this stage - brake rodding fitted at an early stages prevents pick-up adjustment. 

 

11. Only make any cylinders/valve gear/motion after the body is completed, though bogies/ponies can be made/fitted at an early stage. 

 

The making of outside valve gear would take at least another ten steps to describe; so, for another day?

 

I'm bound to have forgotten something, but the above are my usual steps. Those who make compensated/sprung chassis, or use the 'American' system of pick-ups may happily disregard anything I've noted.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Tony, 

many thanks for the extremely helpful checklist.  As many of the older photos on the site have disappeared, would it be possible to post some pictures at each stage, particularly the early points, so as we can see how you do it?

 

many thanks

 

David

[Iain.d]

Over the last few weeks I’ve noticed here on RMweb, across a number of threads, there has been quite a lot on the modelling of small 0-6-0 tender locos. Spurred on by reading this it caused me to dig out a part built Alan Gibson 2F/M Class loco I bought very cheaply on eBay a few years back. I have often wondered if anyone that follows or contributes to this thread was the previous owner or builder.

 

 

The kit came with no instructions, but Geoff Haynes was kind enough to help in identifying most of the many parts on the frets and castings in old musty polythene bags. He also furnished me with some beautiful photos of a couple of 2Fs he’d built. These will go some way to me working out where the bits are supposed to go.

 

The partly built kit was likely done some time ago as all of the brass and nickel silver is well tarnished and anything steel has a reasonable coating of rust.  It has been built to P4/18.83mm scale. At some point the loco’s centre driving axle and gearbox has been removed, but the Mashima motor remained with it. I don’t know if it ever worked under its own power.

 

 

In the picture above it seems both chassis’ were built using the kit’s EM frame spacers; there’s a lot of side play!  Also unusual was that the centre wheels on the tender look to have had their flanges turned down as they were almost none existent, that said, they could simply be badly turned as one is very chunky. My first action was to look at the tender, it was not badly put together but the soldering was done with electric / tinman’s type solder which resulted in some very brittle joins. I disassembled most of it with an old bit in my soldering iron, and I was then able to clean off most of the solder by scraping it with a few cocktail sticks. What I couldn’t get off with heat and scraping was done when cold with some old files and screwdrivers.  I got most of it into pieces but decided to keep the main tank structure together, simply as on the inside there was lots and lots of solder blobs and I thought I’d likely deform the brass pulling it apart.

 

 

I reconstructed the chassis using OO gauge frame spacers and made it square. The first build had been compensated and I decided to keep this but refixed the hornblock guides and reset the bearings, rebuilt the brake gear (to be removable) and used a new, but old, set of AG wheels. I re-soldered the coal rails (there still appears to be a lot of solder here, but it is very thinly layered – it shouldn’t show under paint) and spent some time neatly soldering up the vertical handrails at the cab end.  I don’t have any detailed pictures of this type of tender at they were built and I’m unsure if it needs a ‘normal’ type of brake stanchion (there wasn’t one with the kit) and I also don’t know if the back end by the water filler is right.  In the one photo I do have (taken from ground level) it seems to suggest some sort of tool box(es) fitted at the back. So, I have only glued the tank filler on as I think, when more info comes to light, I might need to move it / remove it. I've added a small piece of lead sheet to the inside of each side of the tender for weight.

 

 

It all seems to sit square and level and runs freely.  I’m not quite content with the front end. The thread of the 10BA bolt won’t be seen once I’ve devised a coupling bar but I’d still like to hide the nut, maybe a fireman can do that. And I need to fill the holes in the side, from the removal of the small horizontal handrails near the front; the picture I’m working to, doesn’t have these fitted. Once I’ve rebuilt the loco, I’ll finish those parts off.

 

I haven’t attached the axleboxes at this stage as the intention is to finish it in Somerset & Dorset blue, circa 1921 and I’ll need to line the tender frame!!

 

Kind regards,

 

Iain

Edited February 5, 2023 by Iain.d
add a word

[lezz01]

Hi Iain.

I have the instructions for this loco if you would like a copy then PM me with your email and I'll scan and send you a pdf of them Sunday evening when we get back from a family visit.

Regards Lez.

[Iain.d]

23 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

Hi Iain.

I have the instructions for this loco if you would like a copy then PM me with your email and I'll scan and send you a pdf of them Sunday evening when we get back from a family visit.

Regards Lez.

Thanks Lez, PM sent.

 

Regards,

 

Iain

[micklner]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Mick,

 

What I find interesting with regard to the use of lining on goods-only locos (or lack of it) is that the M&GNR J40s were red-lined after the LNER took over in the mid-'30s. 

 

I have no idea exactly which period the owner of the locos I'm working on is trying to replicate, other than it's 'LNER'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Tony,

        Some info on the J40 here

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j40j41.php

 

        Not the area of the LNER I model , so I have no idea re Red lining. I would be very surprised if the LNER lined them out , on reading the attachment they sound like they were on their last legs when the LNER took them over , as occasional passenger Locos perhaps ?

      A Falcon Brass/Jidenco kit good luck !!

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Some info on the J40 here

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/J/j40j41.php

 

One error there that leaps out at me: "four of the locomotives were rebuilt with Belpaire versions of the original "H Class" boilers used on the original locomotives." The engines were built with B boilers - 4' 7" over the cladding. The H boiler was the larger-diameter type that many Midland engines were rebuilt with in the decade before the Great War, an intermediate step on the road to rebuilding with the G7 Belpaire boiler, producing the familiar 3F. As far as I'm aware, none of the M&GN 0-6-0s went through the H-boiler stage.

 

But I wouldn't know one GN / LNE boiler from another, so the author has some sympathy.

 

As to the red lining, the phrase "the LNER lined them out" implies a degree of corporate will that I suspect over-states the case. It would perhaps reflect the actual situation better to say "Melton Constable lined them out". I'm now a bit puzzled by the photo of 058 with M&GN-lettered tender. As far as I'm aware, the M&GN livery at the end was brown, not black. So do we see a black-lined-red engine with a brown tender? 

[MJI]

Just thinking.

 

Was W13252 the last sort of GWR designed carriage?

 

B4 Swindon .

Body jigs apppear Hawksworth profile.

Windows look like the Swindon DMU size and style, which are GWR railcar size if I remember correctly.

[Adam]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One error there that leaps out at me: "four of the locomotives were rebuilt with Belpaire versions of the original "H Class" boilers used on the original locomotives." The engines were built with B boilers - 4' 7" over the cladding. The H boiler was the larger-diameter type that many Midland engines were rebuilt with in the decade before the Great War, an intermediate step on the road to rebuilding with the G7 Belpaire boiler, producing the familiar 3F. As far as I'm aware, none of the M&GN 0-6-0s went through the H-boiler stage.

 

But I wouldn't know one GN / LNE boiler from another, so the author has some sympathy.

 

As to the red lining, the phrase "the LNER lined them out" implies a degree of corporate will that I suspect over-states the case. It would perhaps reflect the actual situation better to say "Melton Constable lined them out". I'm now a bit puzzled by the photo of 058 with M&GN-lettered tender. As far as I'm aware, the M&GN livery at the end was brown, not black. So do we see a black-lined-red engine with a brown tender? 

 

I've been thinking about producing a J41 for a bit (because I happen to have an affection for the M&GN - mum was brought up on the route), I have Essery's book on M&GNJR locos and that shows the following:

 

1. Two locos (62 and 69 in 1906 and 1909 respectively) had H boilers for a spell, before receiving Midland G7 boilers (along with nos 68 and 71) in the early '20s. In the latter condition they also had new cabs which made them look much like a 3F with an extended smokebox - which is basically what they were.

 

2. Post the 1936 takeover, thorough repairs and repaints seem to have been at Stratford (there's lots of images of M&GN locos of various kinds on both sides of that process and this image (linked from: https://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/MIDLAND-GREAT-NORTHERN-JOINT-RAILWAY/MIDLAND-GREAT-NORTHERN-JOINT-RAILWAY/i-HTkgS5z/A) shows that 071 at least was lined. The 4-4-0s certainly all were as was 058 which was well-photographed - the 0 prefix was an LNER thing, but yes, the last M&GN loco livery was brown, lined yellow, but 058 seems to have had the earlier branding applied to the tender. It wasn't alone.

 

Adam

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Adam