Wright writes.....

[rodent279]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I thought that old chestnut had been thoroughly exploded. Webb's compounds were superb machines and did very good work with heavy trains for the period such as the 2pm "Corridor" Anglo-Scottish express. They could be fast too, as Adriatic's performance in the '95 demonstrated. The uncoupled driving wheels enabled the axles to be spaced further apart than was possible on a 2-4-0 or 4-4-0 of the period, where the limitation was the strength of the coupling rods relative to their mass; this meant that the grate area could be larger.

 

That apart, is there any engine that does not look handsome in LNWR livery?

 

I still remember that spoof. The next one surely has to be 4079 to go into apple green, and renumbered as 7013 4089 or 4091?

Edited, 7013 not appropriate in green as it would have had the wrong shape inside cylinder valve covers. 4089/91 are the same as 4079, and did carry the experimental light green in 1948.

Edited January 4, 2023 by rodent279
Corrected numbers

[ScRSG]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

The last 'Duchess' (NEVER a 'semi' in our household, Tony - sorry!) to retain a sloping smokebox was 46246 'City of Manchester' which retained it until 1960, by which time she was in BR red - with BR style lining (which never suited them as well as the LMS style lining). Upon emerging from works with the full smokebox, I think I'm right in saying that she had simultaneously been repainted into red with LMS style lining. Much better!

Pics of 46246, both in "Semi" style and afterwards as interpreted from Hornby,

 

As described!

 

Chas

 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by ScRSG
remove incorrect pic

[LNER4479]

Very nice! I fancy a crack at '46 myself as per that first picture of yours. Is that a re-paint?

[ScRSG]

13 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Very nice! I fancy a crack at '46 myself as per that first picture of yours. Is that a re-paint?

Yes, but I can't remember the original source!

 

Chas

[bbishop]

1 hour ago, ScRSG said:

Yes, but I can't remember the original source!

 

Chas

Tomato ketchup?

[Michael Edge]

We do have 46246 on Carlisle.

From a DJH kit, heavily weathered by Barry O.

[2750Papyrus]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Very nice! I fancy a crack at '46 myself as per that first picture of yours. Is that a re-paint?

But she's red - I was under the impression that LNWR black was your favourite livery? 

[LNER4479]

Ooh, no, no, no! It's a very fine and smart livery but red is the only proper colour for Stanier's magnum opus 😍

[Barry Ten]

And another:

 

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Ooh, no, no, no! It's a very fine and smart livery but red is the only proper colour for Stanier's magnum opus 😍

So if Stanier had stayed at Swindon we might have seen more like this?

 

 

[drmditch]

18 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

And the problem with that is what, exactly?(!)

(In relation to 'the legacy of Crewe')

 

I don't think I suggested there was necessarily a problem, and I agree that (some) engines in clean and polished black with LNW lining do look very smart.

I am always interested in 'engineering culture', and the way that some people tend to retain a fondness for their early experience. For mid-20th century engineers this had to be pre-grouping.

 

With so many clever people on this forum, and having never made a detail study of the Mr Webb's compounds, and their ability (in some circumstances) to contra-rotate their driving wheels, I wouldn't dare to suggest that Jeanie Deans and the Teutonics were anything other than effective locomotives.

(Mr Wealleans is, of course,  more knowledgeable and braver than I am!)

Some of the anecdotal evidence for the contra-rotation is interesting in it's own right and, I suspect, suspicious!

 

Mr H N Gresley started his apprenticeship at Crewe in Mr Webb's time, and was, from what I have read, very impressed by the 'Greater Britain' class of 2-4-2 (or 2-2-2-2 if you prefer).

 

However, Mr Riddles didn't start his apprenticeship at Crewe until 1909 (if Wikipedia is to be believed), so well after the Webb years, and Mr Bowen Cooke's locomotives  (in the colour images surviving) certainly look very splendid.

 

One does wonder however, whether a works as large and vertically integrated as Crewe was in the early 20th Century didn't get somewhat 'stuck in it's ways'.

Such issues as leaving tyres without a fine-turned finish did leave dangerous problems to develop. 

It is surprising that the initial poor finish on the the first Princess Royal was permitted. Even with the lingering bitterness regarding the whole Derby/Crewe feud, does this suggest a lack of political awareness somewhere in the management structure?

 

 

 

 

[LNER4479]

6 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

So if Stanier had stayed at Swindon we might have seen more like this?

 

 

Not worthy of such a magnificent livery ...

(Says he, donning tin hat and ducking down behind 6 foot thick concrete wall 😝)

[t-b-g]

Of course we all know that the original "City of Manchester" was a Robinson 4-6-0 No 425 (later B2 No 5425).

 

That would make a much less common model. Those Stanier Pacifics seem to be all over the place.

 

You wouldn't have to worry about the choice as to whether to build one from a kit, or use a RTR one as a base either.

 

 

 

 

[rodent279]

47 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Not worthy of such a magnificent livery ...

(Says he, donning tin hat and ducking down behind 6 foot thick concrete wall 😝)

As well as a Castle in Apple green, I'd also rather like to see one in full LMS red. Even though it never happened, it is a valid "what if".

[LNER4479]

While I'm on, serious question - anybody here know how to either obtain or replicate the short-lived very early BR (1948) block style of cab side loco numbering? I have two locos requiring such treatment.

 

Note this is NOT the same as the standardised BR numbering adopted from 1949 onwards (HMRS sheet 14). I've just double-checked my current HMRS sheet 14 and they're not on there. I've done an internet search and couldn't find anything obvious. For avoidance of doubt, it's 4mm scale I'm referring to.

 

Any pointers gratefully received - thanks.

[John Isherwood]

9 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

While I'm on, serious question - anybody here know how to either obtain or replicate the short-lived very early BR (1948) block style of cab side loco numbering? I have two locos requiring such treatment.

 

Note this is NOT the same as the standardised BR numbering adopted from 1949 onwards (HMRS sheet 14). I've just double-checked my current HMRS sheet 14 and they're not on there. I've done an internet search and couldn't find anything obvious. For avoidance of doubt, it's 4mm scale I'm referring to.

 

Any pointers gratefully received - thanks.

 

Can you post links to images of what you are referring to, please?

 

Was this style confined to the former LNER, or used more widely?

 

If the former, was it a number style formerly used by the LNER?

 

CJI.

Edited January 4, 2023 by cctransuk

[melmoth]

16 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 As 1948 dawned, all they had to do - presumably - was create a slightly longer back plate board to take five numbers rather than four - and perhaps make up a few more '4's - and they could continue to churn out number plates showing the newly allocated numbers ... until such time as officialdom determined the standard style of the new corporate front numberplate style that all regions should adopt.

 

 

Minor pedantry, but the LMS already had a fair few locomotives with 5 digit numbers, e.g ex L&Y and Scottish constituent lines.

[Steven B]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That apart, is there any engine that does not look handsome in LNWR livery?

Works well on something slightly more modern too:

 

The coach livery doesn't work quite so well:

BR Mk1 BG Valiant by Ross Burns, on Flickr

 

Steven B.

 

[LNER4479]

27 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Can you post links to images of what you are referring to, please?

 

Was this style confined to the former LNER, or used more widely?

 

If the former, was it a number style formerly used by the LNER?

 

CJI.

I suspected I might need to resort to images. I hope that posting this here is OK - a heavy crop of my reference photo of a published image.

 

 

Further apologies / clarification - it's actually ex-LMS locos that are the cases to hand (despite my RMWeb alias - might have to change that to 'LMS6229' one day to better reflect modelling projects going forward).

 

The lettering depicted is described as 10" block style, applied mainly at Crewe, from what I understand.

 

Thanks, in anticipation.

[PaulaDoesTrains]

28 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Works well on something slightly more modern too:

 

The coach livery doesn't work quite so well:

BR Mk1 BG Valiant by Ross Burns, on Flickr

 

Steven B.

 

 

That 47 looks almost as nice in black as it would in two-tone green.

[65179]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

I suspected I might need to resort to images. I hope that posting this here is OK - a heavy crop of my reference photo of a published image.

 

 

Further apologies / clarification - it's actually ex-LMS locos that are the cases to hand (despite my RMWeb alias - might have to change that to 'LMS6229' one day to better reflect modelling projects going forward).

 

The lettering depicted is described as 10" block style, applied mainly at Crewe, from what I understand.

 

Thanks, in anticipation.

 

Fox now do these as individual numbers Graham. Tim Shackleton used them to do a red Jubilee (45572) in early-post nationalisation condition in a Hornby Magazine at some point in the last year or so.

 

Relevant references for transfers and materials on this page part way down in a table:

https://www.keymodelworld.com/article/stanier-jubilee-early-nationalisation-condition

 

You want FRH 4208.

 

Simon

Edited January 4, 2023 by 65179

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 hours ago, drmditch said:

(In relation to 'the legacy of Crewe')

 

With so many clever people on this forum, and having never made a detail study of the Mr Webb's compounds, and their ability (in some circumstances) to contra-rotate their driving wheels, I wouldn't dare to suggest that Jeanie Deans and the Teutonics were anything other than effective locomotives.

(Mr Wealleans is, of course,  more knowledgeable and braver than I am!)

Some of the anecdotal evidence for the contra-rotation is interesting in it's own right and, I suspect, suspicious!

 

Mr H N Gresley started his apprenticeship at Crewe in Mr Webb's time, and was, from what I have read, very impressed by the 'Greater Britain' class of 2-4-2 (or 2-2-2-2 if you prefer).

 

 

The contra rotating claims were never from any of the established railway writers of the time AFAIK. It was also been "scientifically proven" some years ago, IIRC, that it wasn't possible. The volume of the pipes joining the high and low pressure cylinders was apparently insufficient to build up enough pressure/energy to move the LP piston to rotate the wheels in the opposite direction. There were also claims that gangs o men equipped with pinch bars were sometimes needed to get trains moving. I imagine starting a train of 200 plus tons at Euston would probably have required most of the station staff, so it is odd that it was never mentioned in any of the serious publications. 

 

The wheel notation for the  compounds with divided drive was 2-2-2-0 (e.g. Teutonic's) or 2-2-2-2 (Greater Britain and John Hick classes). Webb was rather derided for his compound designs but it is reasonable to say that no British compound designs were really successful, possibly with the exception of the MR 4-4-0's.

[drmditch]

13 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The wheel notation for the  compounds with divided drive was 2-2-2-0 (e.g. Teutonic's) or 2-2-2-2 (Greater Britain and John Hick classes). Webb was rather derided for his compound designs but it is reasonable to say that no British compound designs were really successful, possibly with the exception of the MR 4-4-0's.

 

Yes, compounds have a disappointing history in Great Britain.

Should you not also consider NER No.1619  three cylinder compound, and the two NER four cylinder compound Atlantics Nos 730 and 731.

Since there is a direct family connection between W M Smith (responsible for these) and Derby works then perhaps these were related to the MR/LMS compounds.

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by drmditch

[Dunsignalling]

4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Not worthy of such a magnificent livery ...

(Says he, donning tin hat and ducking down behind 6 foot thick concrete wall 😝)

 

Though it looked a good deal better than "Royal Purple" on 34027 IMHO.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, PaulaDoesTrains said:

That 47 looks almost as nice in black as it would in two-tone green.

TBF, there were very few liveries applied to Class 47's that didn't look pretty decent, at least when freshly applied.