Wright writes.....

[john new]

21 minutes ago, billbedford said:

 

Go on then...

Too old, same problem as the traders. I have now stood down (retired) from just over 20 years with the SLS as an active volunteer. Seeing a/the way forward and being young enough to do it are not always compatible. Sadly, it may even now be too late as the modelling world has moved on so far since the 1970s that turning the tide back to the sort of things available then is not economically viable. Our baby boomer generation is literally a dying generation - if not now we probably have circa 30 years max. Is the up and coming replacement one with enough kit building interests to make a new wave of traders viable?

[jrg1]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon jrg1,

 

Were you 'pilloried' on Wright writes? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Somewhere around page 700+ Tony.  I feel that the supplier/customer interface should be professional-after all, their products are in demand.  It really can be a disincentive when queries go unanswered, or sites are not updated, or there is a general lack of communication.

I too do wonder what the future holds for the hobby-perhaps there will be more suppliers such as Wizard buying up other concerns and thereby ensuring products remain on the market.

Alternatively, excellent products such as etched kits could be lost to the hobby when the owner retires, sending the skilled end of the hobby into a probable decline.

[Tony Wright]

6 hours ago, jrg1 said:

Somewhere around page 700+ Tony.  I feel that the supplier/customer interface should be professional-after all, their products are in demand.  It really can be a disincentive when queries go unanswered, or sites are not updated, or there is a general lack of communication.

I too do wonder what the future holds for the hobby-perhaps there will be more suppliers such as Wizard buying up other concerns and thereby ensuring products remain on the market.

Alternatively, excellent products such as etched kits could be lost to the hobby when the owner retires, sending the skilled end of the hobby into a probable decline.

Good morning jrg1,

 

So some 2,000 pages ago. No wonder I've forgotten! 

 

You raise a most interesting point with regard to Comet. After Geoff Brewin died, had Andrew Hartsthorne not bought Comet, then the whole (marvellous) range of products might well have disappeared. Not only that, he's improved/developed it as well. 

 

My view is that the kit-world is in terminal decline (the metal loco-kit-world, that is). It might seem a lugubrious view, but as the baby-boomer generation dies off (of which I'm very much one - how can folk born in the '60s be described as baby-boomers?), both in terms of the manufacturers (several pre-baby-boomers) and the users, then there'll be 'no' suppliers and 'nobody' wanting the supplies, anyway. It's not automatic that a modeller creates what he/she saw as a younger person (the BR steam/diesel transition for the boomers), but that's the most-common at the moment. 

 

Can I offer any advice? If one comes across piles of wheels (older Romfords, say) and/or un-built kits, then buy them immediately. There'll be more and more coming on to the market! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Chamby said:

 

Theres a bit more to it than that, Tony.  Accuracy is one thing, I suggest that robustness and durability come into the equation as well.  Brass versus plastic...?

 

How many super-detailed RTR models will still have all their ‘bits’ complete after a few years running?  My brace of Accurascale deltic’s are the most superb models, but with everyday handling those bogie chains and other details still keep falling off...  they require regular maintenance to keep that detail intact. 

 

If you build your own model, you know what has gone into it, and how to maintain it.  If the finely detailed valve gear breaks on an RTR model, how many owners can fix it themselves?  Often the solution will be to replace it with another example, rather than fix it yourself.   I suggest that the life expectancy of a well built kit, if the builder continues to own it and maintain it, will likely be much better than the average RTR purchase.

 

Your layout and it’s most impressive locomotive roster is the culmination of a lifetime’s work, both in terms of input effort and acquired knowledge and skill.  In my case, having started out with my layout build and accompanying model collection upon retirement, I haven’t had that luxury and therefore have a much greater dependency on RTR products to achieve my goals.  But RTR does make those goals achievable, and more!  The range, quality and availability of RTR has opened up a level of modelled accuracy and detail that significantly enhances my enjoyment of this hobby.  Yes, if it’s available RTR I will buy it... and modify every one to suit.  And with items like the A5 tank becoming available soon from Sonic models, the list of what I can’t buy off the shelf also gets shorter every year.

 

But are the RTR models better than your own kit built models?  That very much depends upon your assessment criteria.

Good morning Phil,

 

 'a well built kit'

 

That's the most-telling phrase of your post. 

 

Three weeks ago, I sold a kit-built 'Austerity' to a friend (not for too much, to be fair). On his investigation, it was not well-built - a metal kit which was GLUED together! When will some builders ever learn? Bits continued to fall off all over the place!

 

With his perseverance (and solder) and a little help from me with the pick-ups, he's ended up with a robust and reliable loco, but, in its original form it wasn't a patch on a Bachmann RTR equivalent. 

 

But, you're right. If a metal loco is well-built, it'll outlast any RTR equivalent, especially where continuous hard work on big layouts is contemplated. 

 

I certainly don't have a problem with folk using RTR (if I did, why would I have assisted Sonic - in a small way by lending them kit-built models - in the development of the A5? Or, the same with Hornby's Thompson Pacifics?). Anyway, without Bachmann's or Hornby's RTR MK.1s (modified nonetheless), I'd still be building some 90 Comet MK.1 cars! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

 

[Tony Teague]

Aside from the steady loss of kit & part suppliers and the inexorable rise of RTR, I feel there is a further important factor, in that at some point in the past the practical skills required to make kits or to scratch-build stopped being taught in skools on the tenuous basis that everyone must now go to universtity.

It is just possible that a rise in the number of modern day apprenticeships might start to reverse this but my perception is that there is a whole generation (or perhaps two) that simply does not possess the basic skills to allow them to start building things themselves.

Whether this has stimulated the rise of RTR or vice-versa is hard to determine.

Tony

[LNERandBR]

The thing I don't get with gluing kits together is why instructions insist that it's an acceptable method?

 

I've had freinds proudly tell me they are or are planning to build a metal kit. When I ask how they are getting on soldering they look confused and say they are/will be using glue. Their response after I say that doing so is the worst thing they could do is to say the instructions say they can.

 

Despite popular belief that men don't follow or need instructions. I know quite a few people who cannot mentally deviate from them. So if a set of instructions say you can use glue they take that as gospel.

 

Little wonder the projects eventually stall and never appear up the club!

[Chas Levin]

11 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Chas,

 

The last time I went to Ally Pally, I think the idea of a 'scale village' had been discontinued. Unless I did miss it!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Apologies Tony - I realised as I wrote that it was highly unlikely you'd have missed it, had it been there. I think perhaps you went to one or two I didn't attend, where they'd stopped it: I've by no means been to every recent one, pre- or post-lockdown. Have they reinstated that room now, post lockdown?

 

Whilst writing, may I also add my support for Mark at Markits? I've always had a chat with him on the phone and I have occasionally wondered how he finds enough hours in the day to run the business too, but he's always sent everything quickly and correctly, well labelled etc. I'm sorry that some folks on here haven't had such good experiences - I think that can happen with almost any business, from Tesco to sole trader.

 

And on the wider subject of kits and parts becoming harder to find, traders retiring etc, while I try to stay positive and optimistic about things, it's difficult not to agree that the future does look a little worrying.

 

Clearly it's a generational thing, but it seems to me there are some younger people (I'm not sure where that line gets drawn but you know what I mean) with sufficient interest to take over some businesses so there is some hope. For what it's worth, I'm 56 and currently considering a change of direction. Getting involved in this type of business is something I've thought about...

[DenysW]

44 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

modern day apprenticeships might start to reverse this

Sadly these are, typically, NOT the same as traditional apprenticeships. They consist of some FE College time and some low-paid work time, and there is NOT a guaranteed route to a job as a journeyman-level at the end. The less scrupulous employers use them as a way to under-pay even compared to the minimum wage. There are continual media reports of high dropout rates as a consequence.

[t-b-g]

My early kits (as a 14 year old) were glued together using either "Bostick" or "Araldite" and a good friend of mine has some locos that he put together with "Superglue" when it was a new product onto the market all those years ago.

 

They are all fine, some 40 years later. They are all whitemetal and neither of us has tried it with an etched kit although I have heard of it.

 

Mick Moore loves using 5 minute epoxy and it is his weapon of choice for most jobs. He admits that it isn't quick but he likes the time it gives for setting things up in the right place. His locos are better than most, as his articles in MRJ illustrate.

 

Once I learned to solder I prefer that now but modern glues are pretty decent and saying that you cannot glue kits together with any degree of success is simply wrong. I still glue things like domes and chimneys on with epoxy as it gives plenty if adjustment time.

 

I have been building a fairly well detailed set of cab controls for a 7mm loco. Each component has been fixed in place with epoxy. Trying to get in between the components with a soldering iron would have made it very difficult to get a nice clean job.

 

I find that using suitable methods in the right situation is a much better approach than a dogmatic "Thou shalt not glue".

 

Edit to add a photo. A few bits were soldered but the controls are mostly glued in. Imagine trying to get a soldering iron in there. There are still a few bits to complete.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by t-b-g
To add photo

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

in that at some point in the past the practical skills required to make kits or to scratch-build stopped being taught in skools on the tenuous basis that everyone must now go to universtity.

Son is 12, and currently loving making things in D&T, in metal and wood.

 

I think most of the skills required by modelmaking are self-taught, and then only by those that are motivated to do so. I'm a child of the 80's, I did loads of practical work in the workshop at school, college & university, and loved it. Despite that, I have not got anything like the modelmaking skills that some on here have. My whitemetal soldering in particular is atrocious, that's why I glued the Hughes Dreadnought I built for my father. And that's despite my first job after college requiring spending hours in front of a soldering station in a lab assembling prototype circuit boards.

For the vast majority these days, paid employment does not require much in the way of practical skills with hands and tools -just compare work at a modern car garage with work done 50 years ago.

My dad, despite being trained and qualified as a mechanical engineer (served his time in a railway workshops), spent most of his railway career as an electrical engineer, mainly involved in electrification. He was also a competent bricklayer and carpenter, to the extent that he built his own house extension. I wouldn't dare have a go at bricklaying!

Bemoan it if you like, but it just isn't as necessary in the modern world as it was.

Edited December 1, 2022 by rodent279

[MJI]

33 minutes ago, LNERandBR said:

The thing I don't get with gluing kits together is why instructions insist that it's an acceptable method?

 

I've had freinds proudly tell me they are or are planning to build a metal kit. When I ask how they are getting on soldering they look confused and say they are/will be using glue. Their response after I say that doing so is the worst thing they could do is to say the instructions say they can.

 

Despite popular belief that men don't follow or need instructions. I know quite a few people who cannot mentally deviate from them. So if a set of instructions say you can use glue they take that as gospel.

 

Little wonder the projects eventually stall and never appear up the club!

 

 

OK I am scared of soldering white metal.

 

I do have a kit to do in it and I am seriously considering using DEVCON epoxy, I already use it for aluminium to brass.

 

Brass is easy, so far 7 carriages in it and a couple of locos.

[johndon]

12 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

 

There is no doubt that the Hornby 9F is a very fine model spoiled a little for me (and I know I'm being picky) by the ejector pin marks that are visible on the doors in your photo.  There are two, much more defined, ones on the insides of each of the smoke deflectors as well.

 

Trivial to some but, as I also build plastic ship and aircraft kits, I've lost count of the number of hours I've spent over the years filling and sanding the bloody things to get rid of them 😀

[t-b-g]

10 minutes ago, MJI said:

 

 

OK I am scared of soldering white metal.

 

I do have a kit to do in it and I am seriously considering using DEVCON epoxy, I already use it for aluminium to brass.

 

Brass is easy, so far 7 carriages in it and a couple of locos.

 

Just try it and see how you get on. One of the great pleasures of this hobby is trying different things and finding an approach that works for you. There is never only one way to carry out a task and people who say there is are invariably wrong. 

[sandra]

2 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

Just try it and see how you get on. One of the great pleasures of this hobby is trying different things and finding an approach that works for you. There is never only one way to carry out a task and people who say there is are invariably wrong. 

I agree completely. When I first tried to build a white metal kit I didn’t have a temperature controlled soldering iron so I used a normal iron but switched it off periodically to reduce the temperature. Believe it or not I built a number of white metal kits this way until one day I managed to put the tip of the iron through the smoke box of a DJH A8.  I then decided it would be wise to use a temperature controlled iron. 
 

I repaired the A8 and was happy with the result. It is a fact that you only really learn how to build locomotive kits by actually doing it and failing occasionally. Any mistakes you make can probably be put right.
 

 

[Barry Ten]

13 hours ago, micklner said:

Would Gibson Crankpins fit ? or are the moulded holes too large?. Thanks

 

I've no experience with the Gibson ones, sorry.

[rodent279]

19 minutes ago, sandra said:

I agree completely. When I first tried to build a white metal kit I didn’t have a temperature controlled soldering iron so I used a normal iron but switched it off periodically to reduce the temperature. Believe it or not I built a number of white metal kits this way until one day I managed to put the tip of the iron through the smoke box of a DJH A8.  I then decided it would be wise to use a temperature controlled iron. 
 

I repaired the A8 and was happy with the result. It is a fact that you only really learn how to build locomotive kits by actually doing it and failing occasionally. Any mistakes you make can probably be put right.
 

 

I don't have a temperature controlled iron either. I have wondered whether I could run one from a light dimmer. An iron is a resistive load, much like a traditional tungsten bulb, so it should be ok.

[Barry Ten]

44 minutes ago, sandra said:

I agree completely. When I first tried to build a white metal kit I didn’t have a temperature controlled soldering iron so I used a normal iron but switched it off periodically to reduce the temperature. Believe it or not I built a number of white metal kits this way until one day I managed to put the tip of the iron through the smoke box of a DJH A8.  I then decided it would be wise to use a temperature controlled iron. 
 

I repaired the A8 and was happy with the result. It is a fact that you only really learn how to build locomotive kits by actually doing it and failing occasionally. Any mistakes you make can probably be put right.
 

 

 

I also put an iron through the cabside of a DJH E1. It was temperature controlled, but I'd forgotten to dial it down. I learned another thing that day - how to fill a big hole in white metal with low-melt solder. All part of life's rich tapestry!

[MikeParkin65]

25 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I don't have a temperature controlled iron either. I have wondered whether I could run one from a light dimmer. An iron is a resistive load, much like a traditional tungsten bulb, so it should be ok.

Are you electrically qualified? Sounds a potentially dangerous bodge to me - decent temp controlled irons start around the £80 mark. 

[Andy Hayter]

My confidence in soldering went up enormously with a temperature controlled iron rather than an uncalibrated resistance controller.  Dial in a temperature.  Wait less than10 seconds (the resistance controller took minutes).  Away you go.  

 

Setting the temperature is the key.  Not quite hot enough to melt a sliver of white metal works for me.

[Chas Levin]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

 

Fabulous - looks like it's lifesize!

[t-b-g]

13 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

My confidence in soldering went up enormously with a temperature controlled iron rather than an uncalibrated resistance controller.  Dial in a temperature.  Wait less than10 seconds (the resistance controller took minutes).  Away you go.  

 

Setting the temperature is the key.  Not quite hot enough to melt a sliver of white metal works for me.

 

Indeed. I pushed the boat out and purchased an ERSA iron some time ago and it transformed my soldering. Yesterday I was soldering whitemetal to brass using 145 degree solder with the iron set at 185 degrees. It was exactly the same as soldering brass to brass. There was no danger of the whitemetal melting and if I got the parts slightly misaligned I could move them as easily as if they were brass.

 

Having the right tools for the job makes a huge difference.

 

There are plenty of temperature controlled irons out there for prices around £30 to £40. I won't recommend one as I haven't tried them but I would suggest that anybody worried about low melt soldering tries one. The thing to look for is a good wattage (say 60W) and a low temperature. You need something that goes down to below 200 degrees C, so either 150 or 180 as a minimum. I haven't found any whitemetal in kits that I can melt at these temperatures yet.

[polybear]

3 hours ago, Chas Levin said:

For what it's worth, I'm 56 and currently considering a change of direction. Getting involved in this type of business is something I've thought about...

 

I wonder if becoming a partner of an existing business (if only 0.01%, as an example, with a view to future ownership) gets around being an employee (and therefore all the aggro that goes with it for the business owner?).  If so then perhaps Markits would like an "Apprentice"? 😀

 

1 hour ago, rodent279 said:

I don't have a temperature controlled iron either. I have wondered whether I could run one from a light dimmer. An iron is a resistive load, much like a traditional tungsten bulb, so it should be ok.

 

Yes you can, quite safely.  But:

Most traditional dimmer switches need to drive a minimum load of 40W, so if the iron is lower than this then this then the dimmer has to supply a small lamp (ideally with a 40W incandescent bulb fitted) at the same time in order to get the load up.

The iron does of course have to be a basic resistive jobbie (such as a basic Antex etc.) with no added electronics involved.

 

It was a common method many years ago, but solder stations have become so cheap in recent years it really isn't worth the bother anymore.  However, if you already have such a station but the iron isn't powerful enough for a particularly large job then it could be useful for controlling an iron that's the size of a poker....

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by polybear

[Tony Wright]

Soldering?

 

Wright writes is clearly cyclic.

 

I think most of the original kit instructions for white metal suggested the use of (the then new?) epoxies because of the risk of melting the castings. My first white metal kit-build (not at 14; I was clearly a slow developer!) was a BEC J11 mounted on top of a (re-wheeled) Tri-ang Jinty chassis. It was put together with the original 24 Hr Araldite. It was a slow process (we didn't have central heating back then in our Victorian house in Chester, so no placing the parts on top of radiators to speed up the cure-time), with some parts held together with elastic bands until the joints had set. Loads of epoxy was used up in the process, it being (at least for me) impossible to mix just the right amount needed for each joint. Has that J11 remained together? I have no idea, because all my original loco-builds have long since gone to other homes or, with luck, been buried! 

 

The moment I discovered white metal soldering as a means of putting cast kits together (with an ordinary 25 Watt iron to start with), a veil was lifted and (apart from still fixing on some non-load-bearing parts with epoxy), I've soldered everything together since; over the last 26 years with a temperature-controlled iron - a 50th birthday present from Mo. 

 

During my soldering 'journey', of course I've melted castings, but I've also learned how to repair them - yes, with white metal solder! 

 

It's true that there is no absolutely 'right' way to put metal loco kits together, but my 'prejudice' with regard to glued-together metal kits comes from the hundreds (yes hundreds!) I've had through my hands assembled by others. In some cases (usually those built using UHU), I've literally taken them apart with my hands. In other cases, glued-on bits such as etched steps just fall off in handling (sorry about those on that WD tender, Geoff!). Glued-on etched deflectors? They fall off just by being scrutinised with a stern gaze! 

 

In my view, soldering is the best way of assembling metal kits. The late Bob Essery once said to me his take on building metal kits was......' If you can bolt or screw assemblies together, then do so. If you can't do that, then solder. However, if all else fails, then glue!' Wise words..... 

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

I wonder if becoming a partner of an existing business (if only 0.01%, as an example, with a view to future ownership) gets around being an employee (and therefore all the aggro that goes with it for the business owner?).  If so then perhaps Markits would like an "Apprentice"? 😀

 

 

Yes you can, quite safely.  But:

Most traditional dimmer switches need to drive a minimum load of 40W, so if the iron is lower than this then this then the dimmer has to supply a small lamp (ideally with a 40W incandescent bulb fitted) at the same time in order to get the load up.

The iron does of course have to be a basic resistive jobbie (such as a basic Antex etc.) with no added electronics involved.

 

It was a common method many years ago, but solder stations have become so cheap in recent years it really isn't worth the bother anymore.  However, if you already have such a station but the iron isn't powerful enough for a particularly large job then it could be useful for controlling an iron that's the size of a poker....

 

I was thinking of mounting the dimmer switch onto the top of an ABS box, along with a 40w incandescent bulb, mount a 3 pin plug socket on the side for the iron, run a lead off with a mains plug in it, & plug into a wall socket via a plug-in circuit breaker.

Dimmer switches are usually for loads up to 100W, so a 25W or 60W iron will be well within it's safe operating area.

[30368]

RE soldering white metal.

 

I have found that using an old Weller 40W iron i.e. no temp. control, on white metal kits has given the best results. This provides a lot of heat capacity into the joint but you must remove the iron as soon as the solder is in its liquid state, usually a second or so. I found that both temperature controlled irons and, say, 25W irons often needed to be applied for longer with a greater risk of the casting melting. I tend to use the dreaded super glue for all small parts - it works.

 

As Tony suggests, try different approaches and find one that works for you.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B