Wright writes.....

[Michael Edge]

Going back to the topic of painting frames and wheels

I know this (LSW C14) is something of an extreme example but I don't know how I would fit Gibson wheels to this after assembling the frames and splashers. Another trick shown here is how to make sure that the Walschaerts expansion link is in the correct position. All my frames have a hole etched or drilled in line with the link pivot and a length of wire is threaded through the frames and link bracket as they are assembled, with some locos this wire has to temporarily pass between spokes. In a few cases it coincides with a wheel tyre which does make it a bit awkward, necessitating the removal and refitting of one wheelset.

Frames complete now and ready for painting, just the motion, cylinder end covers and pickups to add afterwards. I leave the cylinder end covers off at this stage so as to be able to thread the piston rods through the cylinders from the front, in the past this had led to some painters leaving them bright brass or nickel silver in the mistaken belief that that was what was required. Everything now gets sprayed black then I clean the paint off the wheel treads, crankpins and slidebar faces.

[micklner]

49 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mick,

 

'he has'nt even got Crankpins in stock.'

 

That's probably because I've bought over 100 this year alone, and 200 crankpin washers to go with them! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Not really a excuse Tony , if he is in business he should be supplying the products, if he cant cope then employ more staff and stop the bantering would be a good start !!!

 

I will continue with the Gibsons for me, they also offer far more correct wheels sizes, crankpin postions etc and not a "general" product . I agree re a pain to fit , I use a GW press . Never had one come loose, and all run ok.

[LNER4479]

If only to provide balance ...

 

Another satisfied Markits customer here. I'm nothing like as prolific as others on this thread and certainly wouldn't regard myself as 'privileged' in any way but my occasional orders with Markits direct have always been fulfilled (including the 20min conversations!). Sometimes I've had to wait for a month or so but not a problem if you order ahead.

 

The most recent order was all done by email - took about 3 weeks from initial email being sent to the package dropping through the letter box.

 

Nonetheless, I do wonder about the long term survivability / future of such a long-established range of products that many kit builders have relied on over the years.

 

[Willie Whizz]

31 minutes ago, micklner said:

Not really a excuse Tony , if he is in business he should be supplying the products, if he cant cope then employ more staff and stop the bantering would be a good start !!!

 

I will continue with the Gibsons for me, they also offer far more correct wheels sizes, crankpin postions etc and not a "general" product . I agree re a pain to fit , I use a GW press . Never had one come loose, and all run ok.

“Light the blue touchpaper and stand well back…”

 

I have no “skin” in this particular game, but I have been pilloried before now for suggesting that some small businesses need to be more businesslike in their practices and their customer service. Apparently though they are effectively beyond criticism because they are small-scale operators who do it as much if not more for love and for their ‘mates’ as for any meagre profit they might make, which excuses them from all sorts of behaviours and idiosyncrasies you wouldn’t tolerate from your local corner shop, let alone Tesco …

 

But, like I say, criticism is not tolerated and we must all behave as though they are lovely altruistic fluffy bunnies who are our personal friends. So Mick, clearly you and I are wrong in any suspicion otherwise and should refrain from vocalising any such thoughts. 
 

Sorry, ‘rant over’ …

[Compound2632]

48 minutes ago, micklner said:

Not really a excuse Tony , if he is in business he should be supplying the products, if he cant cope then employ more staff and stop the bantering would be a good start !!!

 

I've no direct experience of Markits products or of Mark Arscott but from what I read here it is apparent that his situation is very similar to that of Colin Seymour at Alan Gibson and numerous other cottage industry manufacturers on which the hobby is rather dependent. They're in a bind brought about by the success of their products: they're working at the limit of what a one-man or husband-and-wife team can do, and just about meeting demand or even not keeping up, but to expand by taking on an employee would increase their administrative burden - introducing responsibilities and paperwork they would rather not deal with - and also in the short term, production would inevitably take a hit as the employee was trained up. Further, that assumes that one could find anyone with the necessary skills who would be willing to work for the money on offer, or who wouldn't move on to a better-paid job as soon as they'd been trained up.

 

I suppose, too, that Mr Arscott may well be past the usual age of retirement and be running Markits more or less as a hobby, in which case he's entitled to run it in a way that gives him most satisfaction, such as chatting on the phone to customers! He may well prefer to deal with customers who reciprocate in his enjoyment of chat than customers who treat Markits as if it was Amazon.

 

All this does of course have interesting implications for the long-term viability of our hobby.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Compound2632

[micklner]

I have used Gibsons on numerous occasions, and have recieved items within a week of ordering, catalogue is up to date etc  etc. Well done to Colin Seymour !. I will leave it at that point.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, micklner said:

I have used Gibsons on numerous occasions, and have recieved items within a week of ordering, catalogue is up to date etc  etc. Well done to Colin Seymour !. I will leave it at that point.

 

Granted it is his living, which may not be true of many cottage manufacturers. But the point about inability to expand stands.

[gr.king]

1 hour ago, micklner said:

Not really a excuse Tony , if he is in business he should be supplying the products, if he cant cope then employ more staff and stop the bantering would be a good start !!!

 

I will continue with the Gibsons for me, they also offer far more correct wheels sizes, crankpin postions etc and not a "general" product . I agree re a pain to fit , I use a GW press . Never had one come loose, and all run ok.

As a (thankfully) past part-owner of a real-world business, I'm afraid that even if I were a hard pressed one-man-band the one thing I would now never again do is to employ anybody to help me. By the time you have trained an employee to be a conscientious real asset to the business, the law gives them all sorts of rights and you have almost no rights at all, just a load of costs and duties. As short-term engagement of untrained or not-fully-trained workers may not reliably help the business, remaining solo and of limited size seems to me the only option.

[Tony Wright]

I've never come across the nonsense of 'criticism will not be tolerated', certainly not on here. I've been the subject of criticism (in its truest sense) on countless occasions, though I'm not a trader as such. 

 

I know I'd be 'lost' in this hobby without the help/provisions of 'small' traders. As the proprietors (often, literally, 'one-man' affairs, sometimes with help from their spouse/partner) inevitably die, on too many occasions their products disappear forever. Most I know are near to or well into retirement age (Mark Arscott and I were born in the same year - 1946), meaning they carry on long after many 'professionals' are living off their pensions. What future for the likes of kit-builders like me is there without them? Join the massed hordes of RTR users?

 

At the Spalding Show, I met up again with an old chum, Bob Treacher (thankfully now recovering from illness - all the best, my friend). Most might know Bob as the one-time proprietor of Alton Models, but years and years ago he'd be behind the counter of EAMES of Reading. I'm not saying EAMES was a 'small trader' (the Tudor Road shop was also linked with Kings Cross Models), but it supplied materials from many 'small businesses'. Sadly, both outlets have long since disappeared. Disappeared to the hobby's detriment in my opinion. For instance, in 1975, I started scratch-building the solitary A1/1 GREAT NORTHERN. I bought everything I needed to make it from Bob - wheels, axles, crankpins, motor, gears, buffers, all boiler fittings, axlebox castings, Cartazzi frames, handrail pillars, sheet metal, one sixteenth brass for the frames, bogie, wire, etc, etc, etc. I even commissioned the nameplates! All from one emporium, and all from a range of 'small' manufacturers. All from a bloke who was a modeller himself! Such a thing is inconceivable today as the hobby becomes more and more RTR-orientated, in all scales and gauges. 

 

In my view, before long such will be the paucity of 'small manufacturers' that the hobby will cease to exist in the form I participate in it. It could go (which is a ray of light) back to the Peter Denny or Frank Dyer times, where 'real' modellers like them (and their contemporaries) had no time for criticisms or moaning, but just went ahead and made things themselves. 

[Bucoops]

I keep meaning to try again with Markits direct - I tend to order from Peters Spares, Wizard or Roxey but they all have supply issues. I think I have around 20 driving wheels on backorder with Wizard for example.

 

I've made one order with Mark some years ago now, done by email and phone.

 

The order was unfortunately wrong, didn't match the quoted price and took weeks to get sorted.

 

I want to support him as his products are decent quality but obtaining them proves very hard, including for those that buy in bulk which you would expect to get priority?

 

 

[polybear]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Nonetheless, I do wonder about the long term survivability / future of such a long-established range of products that many kit builders have relied on over the years.

 

 

I believe that when the "real" Alan Gibson sold the business some years ago it went "down to the wire", as did the sale of C&L Finescale, with both almost shutting up shop for good.

[Guest Simon A.C. Martin]

 

 

Recently I was able to finally get on with a long outstanding project to use a second Heljan O2 “Tango” to turn it into (as close as reasonably possible) a depiction of Gresley P1 no.2394 (as it would have been prior to fitting the A3 boiler in the mid 1940s). 
 

Checking the drawings, I found that the O2 wheels are slightly undersize for the P1, but slightly oversize an O2. The look of the model is acceptable to me at a distance, but a potential swapping of wheel sets to using Hornby L1 drivers in future appeals. 
 

This model utilises a heavily modified B1 tender, a Hornby A1 boiler, Hornby cartazzi frames, the Heljan O2 running plate, lengthened, together with many white metal cast parts and a spare set of Heljan O2 valve gear kindly donated by a friend (the second hand O2 was missing its eccentric gear on both sides).

 

I plan on testing this model on a train at the MRC tomorrow if I have time.

 

I remember seeing Graeme King’s beautiful model take shape on the LNER Forum over a decade ago and I always wanted to have a go at doing my own. Mine is nowhere near as fine as his, but I am now content with it. 

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've no direct experience of Markits products or of Mark Arscott but from what I read here it is apparent that his situation is very similar to that of Colin Seymour at Alan Gibson and numerous other cottage industry manufacturers on which the hobby is rather dependent. They're in a bind brought about by the success of their products: they're working at the limit of what a one-man or husband-and-wife team can do, and just about meeting demand or even not keeping up, but to expand by taking on an employee would increase their administrative burden - introducing responsibilities and paperwork they would rather not deal with - and also in the short term, production would inevitably take a hit as the employee was trained up. Further, that assumes that one could find anyone with the necessary skills who would be willing to work for the money on offer, or who wouldn't move on to a better-paid job as soon as they'd been trained up.

 

I suppose, too, that Mr Arscott may well be past the usual age of retirement and be running Markits more or less as a hobby, in which case he's entitled to run it in a way that gives him most satisfaction, such as chatting on the phone to customers! He may well prefer to deal with customers who reciprocate in his enjoyment of chat than customers who treat Markits as if it was Amazon.

 

All this does of course have interesting implications for the long-term viability of our hobby.

I have to say Stephen that you're 'right on the money' with that post.

 

I say that now from a position of first hand experience, having dabbled in kit production. I - naively - thought it might be a worthwhile thing to get into, given my semi-retired status. Five years on, the accounts show a 10% profit on a sub-£10k turnover. Not exactly going to pay the mortgage at that rate?

 

Whilst there has been elements of entrepreneurial satisfaction along the way, my goodness - what a load of time-consuming faff and bother it really is. From getting etches designed, test built, adjusted ... to trying to find the optimum size of packing box to fit it all in. I've resorted to opportune lay-by rendez-vous to collect supplies of parts in order to avoid postage cost (and risk) at times. If I truly factored in all my time spent in everything that surrounds such activities, it would in truth be a massive loss. And all those lost hours could have been more selfishly spent engaging in my own personal modelling activities. Instead, the pile of kits to build grows ever higher ...

 

It's hardly suprising so few people persevere with such enterprises.

 

After all that, may I be permitted to re-post Tony's lovely studio picture of what it's all been about?

 

 

[jrg1]

2 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

“Light the blue touchpaper and stand well back…”

 

I have no “skin” in this particular game, but I have been pilloried before now for suggesting that some small businesses need to be more businesslike in their practices and their customer service. Apparently though they are effectively beyond criticism because they are small-scale operators who do it as much if not more for love and for their ‘mates’ as for any meagre profit they might make, which excuses them from all sorts of behaviours and idiosyncrasies you wouldn’t tolerate from your local corner shop, let alone Tesco …

 

But, like I say, criticism is not tolerated and we must all behave as though they are lovely altruistic fluffy bunnies who are our personal friends. So Mick, clearly you and I are wrong in any suspicion otherwise and should refrain from vocalising any such thoughts. 
 

Sorry, ‘rant over’ …

Many pages ago I opined exactly the same as you-and was pilloried for it.  Sourcing components from small suppliers can be difficult enough, but leaving a site active when the proprietor has retired is also unprofessional-as well as ignoring subsequent enquiries regarding the site.

[John Isherwood]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning John,

 

I don't know why I should be in a position of 'receiving special service' from Markits (I've had differences of opinion with Mark Arscott in the past, by the way). 

 

I do know he's had 'production problems' of late - as far as I'm aware, his wheel caster has retired, and he's switched to producing tyres in stainless steel from nickel silver because of supply difficulties. He's a 'sole' manufacturer as well as a sole trader, after all.

 

It's well known that I use Markits (ex-Romford) driving wheels exclusively. I imagine it's my own incompetence, but I cannot get on with friction-fit drivers. I've never had a set that's completely true-round, tyres have fallen off and some have slipped on their axles under (very) heavy load. None of these problems has been manifest in Markits drivers. If, by advocating the use of Markits wheels in all my loco-build articles/reviews/postings, I'm perceived as being worthy of 'special service', then it's news to me. Granted, I'm privileged to call Mark Arscott a friend.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

Tony,

 

I too use Markits wheels exclusively; fortunately, I have in stock such wheels as I will need in the medium term.

 

I just feel that such excellent, well respected products need a more efficient manufacture and supply system - after all, the demand clearly exists.

 

John Isherwood.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

Duplicate post!

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Jol Wilkinson
Pilot error.

[Jol Wilkinson]

17 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I hesitate to say this, but you may well be receiving special service.

 

I'm afraid that I am 'persona non grata' with Mark - he took exception to a minor complaint that I made.

 

Reports of non-availability of Markits' productions have been rife for ages, and the main source (Wizard) seems to have little better luck.

 

Peter's Spares have supplied some detail fittings in the past, but their range is very restricted.

 

You make a very relevant comment re lengthy conversation prior to ordering; this was always my experience when Mark would speak to me.

 

Given that Mark is a sole trader, and pressure of work is often cited as the reason for non-availability of product, I'm sure that there is a connection between his love of banter and his work output.

 

As a sole trader myself, I know that customer service is paramount, and that product production and despatch must take precedence over 'chewing the cud'.

 

It is such a shame that the paramount range of railway MODELLING components is in such short supply when, with a little business acumen and organisation, the hobby of railway model BUILDING could be much more attractive to newcomers.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Your experience is similar to that of one "trade" customer of Markits that I know.  He appears to have a very selective attitude about the level of "customer service" he provides.

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've no direct experience of Markits products or of Mark Arscott but from what I read here it is apparent that his situation is very similar to that of Colin Seymour at Alan Gibson and numerous other cottage industry manufacturers on which the hobby is rather dependent. They're in a bind brought about by the success of their products: they're working at the limit of what a one-man or husband-and-wife team can do, and just about meeting demand or even not keeping up, but to expand by taking on an employee would increase their administrative burden - introducing responsibilities and paperwork they would rather not deal with - and also in the short term, production would inevitably take a hit as the employee was trained up. Further, that assumes that one could find anyone with the necessary skills who would be willing to work for the money on offer, or who wouldn't move on to a better-paid job as soon as they'd been trained up.

 

I suppose, too, that Mr Arscott may well be past the usual age of retirement and be running Markits more or less as a hobby, in which case he's entitled to run it in a way that gives him most satisfaction, such as chatting on the phone to customers! He may well prefer to deal with customers who reciprocate in his enjoyment of chat than customers who treat Markits as if it was Amazon.

 

All this does of course have interesting implications for the long-term viability of our hobby.

 

I don't think that Markits and AGW are very comparable. No doubt they are both very busy, Colin Seymour particularly so since PECO started supplying hos wheels in some of their kits. However, in my experience Colin has a somewhat more positive and even-handed attitude towards his customer.

 

You are very right that there are interesting - and worrying - long term implications about the future of the hobby where we are dependent on a small number of specialist suppliers. 

2 hours ago, gr.king said:

As a (thankfully) past part-owner of a real-world business, I'm afraid that even if I were a hard pressed one-man-band the one thing I would now never again do is to employ anybody to help me. By the time you have trained an employee to be a conscientious real asset to the business, the law gives them all sorts of rights and you have almost no rights at all, just a load of costs and duties. As short-term engagement of untrained or not-fully-trained workers may not reliably help the business, remaining solo and of limited size seems to me the only option.

 

Quite a few of the small, specialist suppliers are dependent on friends and family providing "unpaid" or informal support for their businesses, especially with trade stands at shows, some relatively unskilled roles such as packing of items or even more specialist roles such as design, test builds, etc.

 

As Graeme says, actually employing someone is often too onerous because of employment law amongst other things. I had a conversation several years with one very successful supplier who had reached full capacity and didn't know how best to continue. We discussed employing someone to assist but he decided that he didn't want the hassle. He continues to manufacture his very popular products but doesn't now promote his business as word of mouth brings sufficient sales and saves expense and potential customer dissatisfaction.

 

 

[Roger Sunderland]

For what it’s worth I have had nothing but excellent service from Mark. He’s returned telephone calls even when I’ve not left a message. Yes he likes to have a chat, nothing wrong with that, but I’ve always had my order within a few days after ringing him.

God forbid he should decide to chuck it all in because that would mean , for me anyway, that kitbuilding would cease . I cannot/will not use Gibson driving wheels. Devils spawn as far as I’m concerned.

[Willie Whizz]

For clarity, my reference to ‘criticism’ was not to suggest that suppliers would not tolerate it, but that in some very vocal instances, their customers will not accept any criticism of the supplier - not uncommonly, however dire the service to the complainant has apparently been. This is observable from many threads on RMWeb over the years, including the Small Suppliers forum itself. 

 

I accept entirely that there are limitations to what a “one-man” business can physically do, and that taking on employees may itself bring unwelcome challenges; but should that invariably be an acceptable excuse?

Edited November 30, 2022 by Willie Whizz

[gr.king]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Your experience is similar to that of one "trade" customer of Markits that I know.  He appears to have a very selective attitude about the level of "customer service" he provides.

 

I don't think that Markits and AGW are very comparable. No doubt they are both very busy, Colin Seymour particularly so since PECO started supplying hos wheels in some of their kits. However, in my experience Colin has a somewhat more positive and even-handed attitude towards his customer.

 

You are very right that there are interesting - and worrying - long term implications about the future of the hobby where we are dependent on a small number of specialist suppliers. 

 

Quite a few of the small, specialist suppliers are dependent on friends and family providing "unpaid" or informal support for their businesses, especially with trade stands at shows, some relatively unskilled roles such as packing of items or even more specialist roles such as design, test builds, etc.

 

As Graeme says, actually employing someone is often too onerous because of employment law amongst other things. I had a conversation several years with one very successful supplier who had reached full capacity and didn't know how best to continue. We discussed employing someone to assist but he decided that he didn't want the hassle. He continues to manufacture his very popular products but doesn't now promote his business as word of mouth brings sufficient sales and saves expense and potential customer dissatisfaction.

 

 

You are right Jol. Three cheers for all the "tame" and not completely "green" family members, friends, and other sole traders who,  as casual but sometimes essential helpers, can certainly ease, rather than increase, the burden of the owner of a very small business.

[Tony Wright]

3 hours ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

 

Recently I was able to finally get on with a long outstanding project to use a second Heljan O2 “Tango” to turn it into (as close as reasonably possible) a depiction of Gresley P1 no.2394 (as it would have been prior to fitting the A3 boiler in the mid 1940s). 
 

Checking the drawings, I found that the O2 wheels are slightly undersize for the P1, but slightly oversize an O2. The look of the model is acceptable to me at a distance, but a potential swapping of wheel sets to using Hornby L1 drivers in future appeals. 
 

This model utilises a heavily modified B1 tender, a Hornby A1 boiler, Hornby cartazzi frames, the Heljan O2 running plate, lengthened, together with many white metal cast parts and a spare set of Heljan O2 valve gear kindly donated by a friend (the second hand O2 was missing its eccentric gear on both sides).

 

I plan on testing this model on a train at the MRC tomorrow if I have time.

 

I remember seeing Graeme King’s beautiful model take shape on the LNER Forum over a decade ago and I always wanted to have a go at doing my own. Mine is nowhere near as fine as his, but I am now content with it. 

It's an effective model, Simon,

 

Thanks for showing us.

 

I assume the metal 'slab' below the boiler is part of the Heljan O2 chassis? Is there any way it can be reduced?

 

You mention Graeme King's P1.

 

 

 

Four years ago it ran on Little Bytham during the 1938 LNER weekend.

 

OVS Bulleid considered the class to be 'Gresley's best-looking loco'. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, jrg1 said:

Many pages ago I opined exactly the same as you-and was pilloried for it.  Sourcing components from small suppliers can be difficult enough, but leaving a site active when the proprietor has retired is also unprofessional-as well as ignoring subsequent enquiries regarding the site.

Good afternoon jrg1,

 

Were you 'pilloried' on Wright writes? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[ecgtheow]

59 minutes ago, Roger Sunderland said:

For what it’s worth I have had nothing but excellent service from Mark. He’s returned telephone calls even when I’ve not left a message. Yes he likes to have a chat, nothing wrong with that, but I’ve always had my order within a few days after ringing him.

God forbid he should decide to chuck it all in because that would mean , for me anyway, that kitbuilding would cease . I cannot/will not use Gibson driving wheels. Devils spawn as far as I’m concerned.

I want to second this. I & a friend have ordered many products from both Markits & the Alan Gibson Workshop recently & have had excellent service from both. Perhaps we should all be more grateful for what we have while we still have it & more understanding of the difficulties & frustrations of being a small supplier as they are currently having all sorts of additional problems such as increasing energy prices, shortage or lack of ever more expensive raw materials, etc.

 

William

[Tony Wright]

There seems to be a just-about-even split regarding satisfaction/dissatisfaction about certain 'small' suppliers. 

 

I can only comment on my own experiences, and I've had nothing but satisfaction for quite some time (apart from the non-supply of some transfers a little while back, but that's another story - not about Fox, I hasten to add, whose service has been fantastic). 

 

I think what has been evident in recent times is the drop-off by 'specialist' suppliers at just about all the shows I attend these days. Time was when I could buy everything I needed to build a loco kit at a show (including the kit itself), but not so now (I can't comment on Warley because I didn't attend). The last time I visited Ally Pally (prior to lockdowns) I couldn't see anyone selling metal kits (apart from on the MR Club's second-hand stand), nor were there any wheels, motors, gears, etc, for sale; as for detailing bits? No chance. 

 

Many shows nowadays have a proliferation of 'box-shifters', all competing for the same market it would seem. This is obviously the way things are going, or am I not looking closely enough? 

 

Long live the small/specialist traders; I for one don't want to buy just RTR! 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

I think what has been evident in recent times is the drop-off by 'specialist' suppliers at just about all the shows I attend these days. Time was when I could buy everything I needed to build a loco kit at a show (including the kit itself), but not so now

 

I suspect that is simply because online / mail order selling must be so much simpler and easier and cost-effective than selling at shows. Stands and transport must be a considerable expense, to say nothing of giving up numerous weekends throughout the year. Covid has I'm sure just accelerated an existing trend. 

 

The loss, I suppose, is face-to-face interaction with customers and potential customers - though I get the impression that can be a double-edged sword. But there are now plenty of other ways of raising product awareness - such as this forum.