Wright writes.....

[Guest Simon A.C. Martin]

6 minutes ago, Ian Rathbone said:

Can anyone tell me which bit of Flying Scotsman is actually 100 years old?

 

Ian R

 

No steam locomotive in preservation 100% made up of its original parts, unless it was never actually used. The continual (and rather banal) "Trigger's broom" pseudo-meme applied to [insert name of steam locomotive here] isn't justified. It's very tiresome for those of us who actually volunteer and run steam locomotives as part of our lives.

 

Flying Scotsman has worked for two major railways, had three major private owners, and is now in the hands of the NRM. In that time as a working locomotive for the LNER and then BR Eastern Region, the locomotive underwent maintenance and overhauls and, like every steam locomotive in this entire country, had parts repaired, replaced or upgraded as funds/time allowed by its owning body.

 

The locomotive presented for us in 2022 is the sum total of 100 years working on that particular time and space that has been known as Flying Scotsman.

 

It is ultimately irrelevant how much of the locomotive survives from its build date in 1923: the fact that something which tells the whole history of its class, by virtue of its survival, is still with us and running today is testament to the people who cared about it, worked on it, saved it, and now continue to do their utmost for it on behalf of its owners - the general public - today.

 

[2750Papyrus]

FS visited the Keighley and Worth Valley some years ago and was open to the public to view (so I've cabbed it!).  Our guide had completed the York University master's degree and had investigated the build history of the loco for his dissertation.  I can't remember all the detail, but she has 2750's driving wheels whilst part of the cab sheets was deemed original.

[MJI]

34 minutes ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

No steam locomotive in preservation 100% made up of its original parts, unless it was never actually used. The continual (and rather banal) "Trigger's broom" pseudo-meme applied to [insert name of steam locomotive here] isn't justified. It's very tiresome for those of us who actually volunteer and run steam locomotives as part of our lives.

 

Flying Scotsman has worked for two major railways, had three major private owners, and is now in the hands of the NRM. In that time as a working locomotive for the LNER and then BR Eastern Region, the locomotive underwent maintenance and overhauls and, like every steam locomotive in this entire country, had parts repaired, replaced or upgraded as funds/time allowed by its owning body.

 

The locomotive presented for us in 2022 is the sum total of 100 years working on that particular time and space that has been known as Flying Scotsman.

 

It is ultimately irrelevant how much of the locomotive survives from its build date in 1923: the fact that something which tells the whole history of its class, by virtue of its survival, is still with us and running today is testament to the people who cared about it, worked on it, saved it, and now continue to do their utmost for it on behalf of its owners - the general public - today.

 

 

Nearest would be evening star

[LNERandBR]

58 minutes ago, Ian Rathbone said:

Can anyone tell me which bit of Flying Scotsman is actually 100 years old?

 

Ian R

 

A bit of the frames maybe?

 

The same thing is true of Prince on the Ffestiniog which has physically grown in size over the years as various parts were replaced. However, it's still said to be one of the oldest working steam locomotives.

[Brian D]

Hi Tony,

Apologies if this is a bit off topic but I had the huge pleasure yesterday of travelling south from Edinburgh Waverley to KX on board an LNER Azuma.  To amuse myself enroute (when I could tear myself away from the view out of the window) I was tracking the journey on Google maps on my phone and monitoring the train's speed using a speedometer app (decent wifi being afforded on the train).  You will be pleased to know that we flew through Little Bytham at 122 mph according to my app.  It was a truly exhilarating journey completed in 4 hours 20 minutes.  The ECML is still a high-speed connection between the two capitals. 

Regards,

Brian.

[John Isherwood]

45 minutes ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

No steam locomotive in preservation 100% made up of its original parts, unless it was never actually used. The continual (and rather banal) "Trigger's broom" pseudo-meme applied to [insert name of steam locomotive here] isn't justified. It's very tiresome for those of us who actually volunteer and run steam locomotives as part of our lives.

 

Flying Scotsman has worked for two major railways, had three major private owners, and is now in the hands of the NRM. In that time as a working locomotive for the LNER and then BR Eastern Region, the locomotive underwent maintenance and overhauls and, like every steam locomotive in this entire country, had parts repaired, replaced or upgraded as funds/time allowed by its owning body.

 

The locomotive presented for us in 2022 is the sum total of 100 years working on that particular time and space that has been known as Flying Scotsman.

 

It is ultimately irrelevant how much of the locomotive survives from its build date in 1923: the fact that something which tells the whole history of its class, by virtue of its survival, is still with us and running today is testament to the people who cared about it, worked on it, saved it, and now continue to do their utmost for it on behalf of its owners - the general public - today.

 

 

I couldn't agree more - but how does that square with the fact that some preserved locos cannot be restored to operation because, so we are told, it is vital to retain them in as-withdrawn condition.

 

There would appear to be two, utterly opposed, schools of thought within the (railway) museum community.

 

CJI.

[Guest Simon A.C. Martin]

19 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I couldn't agree more - but how does that square with the fact that some preserved locos cannot be restored to operation because, so we are told, it is vital to retain them in as-withdrawn condition.

 

There would appear to be two, utterly opposed, schools of thought within the (railway) museum community.

 

CJI.

 

As always, it should be on a case by case basis, and remember that the curators at whichever museum/society/etc will change over the years, and opinions/technology/etc will change over the years.

 

Green Arrow, a case in point. Before, when a new monobloc to replace the damaged original was required, was retired "permanently". Now we know from the P2 Trust manufacturing theirs for the P2 that not only is a new bloc possible, but repairing 4771's may in fact be possible. (However, as a side note, she is currently in the new Doncaster Museum as a star attraction and I think this is an excellent place for her to be).

 

However I think you are on a hiding to nothing if, for example, something which has not steamed in preservation is suggested. Lode Star comes up time and time again, and you could argue cogently that its history at its withdrawal is as important as its building.

 

I don't see it as incompatible thinking there. If it's not steamed in preservation, keeping it original from its restoration seems logical. if it has steamed inpreservation, maintaining the overall -fabric and integrity of the parts that are there is key. If something has worked throughout preservation - which in my case, is Clan Line - we as custodians are careful to respect the fabric of the original locomotive but that does not take precedence over and above the society's aim of running the locomotive on the mainline, so modifications/repair/replacement have and are being done to keep her fit for the mainline.

 

Singling out Flying Scotsman (which I am not suggesting you have done, I hasten to add) when there are a good thirty or forty locomotives out there which have had as much, if not at times, more new material to keep running suggests there is not a good understanding of what actually goes into a working locomotive's overhaul.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Simon A.C. Martin

[micklner]

2 hours ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

No steam locomotive in preservation 100% made up of its original parts, unless it was never actually used. The continual (and rather banal) "Trigger's broom" pseudo-meme applied to [insert name of steam locomotive here] isn't justified. It's very tiresome for those of us who actually volunteer and run steam locomotives as part of our lives.

 

Flying Scotsman has worked for two major railways, had three major private owners, and is now in the hands of the NRM. In that time as a working locomotive for the LNER and then BR Eastern Region, the locomotive underwent maintenance and overhauls and, like every steam locomotive in this entire country, had parts repaired, replaced or upgraded as funds/time allowed by its owning body.

 

The locomotive presented for us in 2022 is the sum total of 100 years working on that particular time and space that has been known as Flying Scotsman.

 

It is ultimately irrelevant how much of the locomotive survives from its build date in 1923: the fact that something which tells the whole history of its class, by virtue of its survival, is still with us and running today is testament to the people who cared about it, worked on it, saved it, and now continue to do their utmost for it on behalf of its owners - the general public - today.

 

I have previously read the Footplate and the Cab Roof , no idea if even that is original.

[John Isherwood]

4 hours ago, Simon A.C. Martin said:

 

As always, it should be on a case by case basis, and remember that the curators at whichever museum/society/etc will change over the years, and opinions/technology/etc will change over the years.

 

Green Arrow, a case in point. Before, when a new monobloc to replace the damaged original was required, was retired "permanently". Now we know from the P2 Trust manufacturing theirs for the P2 that not only is a new bloc possible, but repairing 4771's may in fact be possible. (However, as a side note, she is currently in the new Doncaster Museum as a star attraction and I think this is an excellent place for her to be).

 

However I think you are on a hiding to nothing if, for example, something which has not steamed in preservation is suggested. Lode Star comes up time and time again, and you could argue cogently that its history at its withdrawal is as important as its building.

 

I don't see it as incompatible thinking there. If it's not steamed in preservation, keeping it original from its restoration seems logical. if it has steamed inpreservation, maintaining the overall -fabric and integrity of the parts that are there is key. If something has worked throughout preservation - which in my case, is Clan Line - we as custodians are careful to respect the fabric of the original locomotive but that does not take precedence over and above the society's aim of running the locomotive on the mainline, so modifications/repair/replacement have and are being done to keep her fit for the mainline.

 

Singling out Flying Scotsman (which I am not suggesting you have done, I hasten to add) when there are a good thirty or forty locomotives out there which have had as much, if not at times, more new material to keep running suggests there is not a good understanding of what actually goes into a working locomotive's overhaul.

 

You have confirmed what I have always suspected - that the 'rules' of conservation / preservation are very much subject to the whims / prejudices of the curator at that time 'in charge' of the artifact.

 

Any mechanical device has been constructed to undertake a specific function, and it is in its intended operation that the viewer can best appreciate its function and construction.

 

Static mechanical devices tell the viewer very little at all. Any public presentation of machinery will demonstrate that the crowd gathers around the operating exhibits, whilst the static items will merely attract passing, curious but not particularly engaged attention.

 

I can see no reason whatsoever, beyond cost, for NOT maintaining preserved mechanical equipment in operational condition.

 

After all, no-one thought twice about repairing / replacing components during their working lives!

 

CJI.

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by cctransuk

[john new]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Is the Grouping, basically an organisational restructuring*, really that significant history to 99% of people?  The first locomotive in the world to achieve 100mph and to have such an iconic name - if you asked the general public to name a locomotive, FS is what the 99% would name first - attracts interest and money (remember they have raised significant external sponsorship for FS, not available for other projects).  While I agree FS has absorbed a very large amount of money, the NRM would not be meeting its remit if it restored lots of more obscure exhibits but no-one came to visit them.  The role of any museum is to conserve, educate and inform visitors; it's much harder to inform and educate people if they aren't there.

 

*It's comparable to saying that the amalgamation of Army Regiments after the 2004 Strategic Defence Review was more significant than the regiments' involvement in either of the World Wars.

A museum has to survive, selling the FS story generates publicity and will bring in funding through several sources, a part of which is visitor spend on site etc. The grouping, like the 1948 nationalisation, was a highly significant historical event but of interest mainly to some enthusiasts and historians undertaking academic research at some level or other between the minor interest starting point and preparing for a PhD. 
 

Ask the man on the Clapham Omnibus (to use that legal example) to name a train they won’t notice the difference between locomotive and train, they will see them as one and the same. Their likely answers are Flying Scotsman and the Hogwarts Express.

[Bucoops]

Uh oh, FS has been mentioned 🤣

 

My tuppence, for what it's worth...

 

I think it's a missed opportunity to leave it in BR Guise for its 100th.

 

FS is known as the most famous steam engine in the world. Why?

 

It was displayed at the 1924 Empire exhibition

It was the first proven to reach 100mph

It was the first non-stop locomotive Kings Cross to Edinburgh

It was the first locomotive to "beat" the steam ban

It recreated the first non-stop Kings Cross to Edinburgh journey for the 30th(?) anniversary

It toured Australia

When in Australia it set an unbeaten steam record of 422 non-stop miles

It toured the United States (OK that's more infamous than famous).

 

There's one thing in common with everything above - it was in LNER Livery at the time. Maybe not historically accurate but still a part of its story. I genuinely do not know of any notable things it is credited with when in BR Guise.

[stewartingram]

I can remember when the NRM 'restored E5001 to mainline service (apologies if I have the wrong id -I'm not bothering to look it up, anyway I'm referring to the southern electric loco). The precise detail escapes me, but I remember some hoo-ha about an electrical cable that had to changed, as it was life expired. Then they insisted that they had to preserve the old cable as it was historically very important! 

For the life of me I cannot reason with that, and anyway, on my NRM visits, I've never seen the cable on display!

[Bucoops]

With Green Arrow, I'm firmly in the camp of commision the P2 guys to produce a modern replacement cylinder block, and put the original on display to show the complexity of the original casting and the skill needed to produce it.

[PupCam]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

There would appear to be two, utterly opposed, schools of thought within the (railway) museum community.

 

Or indeed the same museum!

 

24 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

It recreated the first non-stop Kings Cross to Edinburgh journey for the 30th(?) anniversary

 

40th.    I know this because for a number of reasons (not all good) the event is indelibly etched in my mind.    The main reason being that I had the pleasure, as a small boy, of being on it 😀

 

 

And normally I would be standing on that bridge watching the trains, not looking out of the train at the bridge 😀

 

 

24 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

There's one thing in common with everything above - it was in LNER Livery at the time. Maybe not historically accurate but still a part of its story. I genuinely do not know of any notable things it is credited with when in BR Guise.

 

I dearly wish FS was sans smoke deflectors and in LNER livery however wrong technically given her current mechanical configuration - it doesn't matter IMVHO.  

 

Similarly, if only SNR was in Garter Blue ....

 

Alan

[Guest Simon A.C. Martin]

46 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

Uh oh, FS has been mentioned 🤣

 

My tuppence, for what it's worth...

 

I think it's a missed opportunity to leave it in BR Guise for its 100th.

 

FS is known as the most famous steam engine in the world. Why?

 

It was displayed at the 1924 Empire exhibition

It was the first proven to reach 100mph

It was the first non-stop locomotive Kings Cross to Edinburgh

It was the first locomotive to "beat" the steam ban

It recreated the first non-stop Kings Cross to Edinburgh journey for the 30th(?) anniversary

It toured Australia

When in Australia it set an unbeaten steam record of 422 non-stop miles

It toured the United States (OK that's more infamous than famous).

 

There's one thing in common with everything above - it was in LNER Livery at the time. Maybe not historically accurate but still a part of its story. I genuinely do not know of any notable things it is credited with when in BR Guise.

 

I have a similar view. However I spoke to someone who was involved a few months back and the cost/benefit/time ratio didn't add up. I respect that we've had a global pandemic in the middle of its overall ticket, and perhaps it may yet get turned out in apple green in future. However I could not and will not deny that it looked amazing at King's Cross when I saw it yesterday evening with my wife. She's not easily impressed - only Clan Line and Flying Scotsman have so far piqued her interest! Common theme? BR Green. I have no idea if that is a genuine factor but she was very impressed with both. 

 

Of course, she could be humouring me...😉

[Northmoor]

37 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I can remember when the NRM 'restored E5001 to mainline service (apologies if I have the wrong id -I'm not bothering to look it up, anyway I'm referring to the southern electric loco). The precise detail escapes me, but I remember some hoo-ha about an electrical cable that had to changed, as it was life expired. Then they insisted that they had to preserve the old cable as it was historically very important! 

For the life of me I cannot reason with that, and anyway, on my NRM visits, I've never seen the cable on display!

It will be considerably more complex than that.  Having been involved with preservation and restoration of the AC electrics, I can surmise that the life-expired cable also used a banned insulation (there are a number of products banned because they emit toxic fumes when burning, which electric locos sometimes do).  If replaced to the new standard, it might also need to be double-redundant and there were probably numerous other changes that needed to be made, as the design was now modified and would no longer have "grandfather rights".  We were in the same position with the AL1-5; they would have been very different locos from that withdrawn by BR, like the NRM we had to consider the cost of making technical changes to locomotives which would get very few main lines runs to recover the cost.

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

Uh oh, FS has been mentioned 🤣

 

My tuppence, for what it's worth...

 

I think it's a missed opportunity to leave it in BR Guise for its 100th.

 

FS is known as the most famous steam engine in the world. Why?

 

It was displayed at the 1924 Empire exhibition

It was the first proven to reach 100mph

It was the first non-stop locomotive Kings Cross to Edinburgh

It was the first locomotive to "beat" the steam ban

It recreated the first non-stop Kings Cross to Edinburgh journey for the 30th(?) anniversary

It toured Australia

When in Australia it set an unbeaten steam record of 422 non-stop miles

It toured the United States (OK that's more infamous than famous).

 

There's one thing in common with everything above - it was in LNER Livery at the time. Maybe not historically accurate but still a part of its story. I genuinely do not know of any notable things it is credited with when in BR Guise.

 

So which LNER livery would that be?  I can assure you that the livery at the 1924 exhibition was not that when it ran non-stop Kings X to Edinburgh.

 

It is easy to dream up a romanticised view of the past and take it as a given.  

[Northmoor]

5 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

So which LNER livery would that be?  I can assure you that the livery at the 1924 exhibition was not that when it ran non-stop Kings X to Edinburgh.

 

It is easy to dream up a romanticised view of the past and take it as a given.  

I find that it's very difficult to appreciate the livery a loco is painted in, when you're one of the ones who has actually paid to travel behind it.

[BoD]

On 14/10/2022 at 16:48, MJI said:

I saw a bit from KIngs Cross this morning on BBC breakfast, saw the A3 and a 91,what else was there?

 

Strange that, until recently, they were both powered by coal and steam.

[polybear]

29 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

So which LNER livery would that be?  I can assure you that the livery at the 1924 exhibition was not that when it ran non-stop Kings X to Edinburgh.

 

It is easy to dream up a romanticised view of the past and take it as a given.  

 

I recall mention some years ago that one (or more) of FS's previous owners received death threats because they'd painted the loco in "the wrong colours".  Can anyone confirm - or deny this story?

[chris p bacon]

37 minutes ago, polybear said:

 

I recall mention some years ago that one (or more) of FS's previous owners received death threats because they'd painted the loco in "the wrong colours".  Can anyone confirm - or deny this story?

When FS was at the Gloucester Warwickshire in the early 90's (owned by McAlpine & Waterman) she was in BR green with the German smoke deflectors. I set up the camera in a field in amongst a few others filming and photographing.

As FS approached a very loud gent behind declared "I'm not wasting film on that f*&^%$g thing with those f&^%$*g deflectors on the front, Waterman and McAlpine want f&^%$*g shooting for putting it in that livery" as we all turned around there stood a small gent with a dog collar in what can only be described as a rage. He packed his gear and stomped off and the chap next to me with a video camera looked at me and said "I was going to tell him to shush but I thought it might really get him going"

[Tony Wright]

FLYING SCOTSMAN?

 

I have no idea how much of the original survives, but at least the loco (in its current guise) still does. 

 

I made a model of her near 40 years ago (it appeared in the RM).

 

I modelled her when she was at her very best; that is with a Kylchap double chimney and German blinkers. At no time in their whole careers were the A3s any better.

 

 

Taken a few years ago when much on LB still needed doing.

 

 

And, more recently. 

 

She's built from a Wills kit on a scratch-built chassis and tows a K's P2 tender. And, everything about her is my work! 

 

Yes, the scene is anomalous - LB station had gone by the time she looked like this, and those express lamps are the wrong pattern.

 

Is she original? No, because her original open-framed motor was replaced with a DJH motor/gearbox combination about ten years ago. 

 

 

[Compound2632]

It has to be said that while the current condition of Flying Scotsman may appeal to the nostalgia of a few who were spotters in the 50s and 60s, such as Tony in the post above, it's not the classic Flying Scotsman that most enthusiasts and even casual observers have in their mind's eye:

 

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

FLYING SCOTSMAN?

 

I have no idea how much of the original survives, but at least the loco (in its current guise) still does. 

 

I made a model of her near 40 years ago (it appeared in the RM).

 

I modelled her when she was at her very best; that is with a Kylchap double chimney and German blinkers. At no time in their whole careers were the A3s any better.

 

 

Taken a few years ago when much on LB still needed doing.

 

 

And, more recently. 

 

She's built from a Wills kit on a scratch-built chassis and tows a K's P2 tender. And, everything about her is my work! 

 

Yes, the scene is anomalous - LB station had gone by the time she looked like this, and those express lamps are the wrong pattern.

 

Is she original? No, because her original open-framed motor was replaced with a DJH motor/gearbox combination about ten years ago. 

 

 

I agree on the late BR condition suiting the A3 visually as well as enhancing performance.

 

That could be because it's the state the best of them were in when I first became aware of them, but, for me, the single chimney and apple green make it look so old.

 

You'd have to be pushing ninety to remember Apple Green other than in preservation, anyway.

 

John

Edited October 15, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

You'd have to be pushing ninety to remember Apple Green other than in preservation, anyway.

 

I am a very long way from pushing ninety! But I well remember seeing Flying Scotsman at Garsdale in the early 90s, quite by chance - we were passing and stopped to investigate the large crowd (for that part of the world) at the station. It came in silently over the Lunds viaduct (it is downhill from Aisgill) but the noise when it blew off after coming to a stand! (This was a water stop.) Anyway, it looked magnificent in apple green. In BR green, it just looks like any other engine.