Wright writes.....

[Guest Simon A.C. Martin]

I now see what you mean. It's visually quite noticeable once you see the two differences. Why on earth did they do that with the tank's running plate? Very odd! I am in two minds whether I want to modify it enough to be correct with the running plate, but the rear of the tender with the larger circumference plating is an easy fix.

 

The photograph I worked from doesn't show it very clearly. Had I been aware, I might have chosen a different locomotive to model altogether. I will give it some thought!

 

 

https://www.transporttreasury.com/p968962872/hC49C2964#hc49c2964

[dibateg]

Thats probably TW junior pointing out that they've got something wrong on 61039!

 

Regards

Tony

[john new]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Simon,

 

There's a very good picture of 61039 and its unusual tender in The Power of the B1s by Peter Swinger, OPC, 1994. It's taken at York in 1950, and is in the North Eastern section of the book. 

 

 

Though partly hidden by steam, the missing section of flange beneath the tender's tank is evident; what was left was just above the steps at the four corners.

 

How would I modify it? Obviously with great care, if you wish to retain the livery intact. I'd probably use a scalpel and (very, very) carefully pare away at the plastic flange. It's an interesting tender and well worth modelling.

 

As for large front cut-outs in model B1s' tenders, near half a century ago I built a Jamieson B1....

 

 

That had the firm's 'Group Standard 4,200 Gal LNER tender' (also supplied with the V2 and the hand-cut A2/1), and I built it in blissful ignorance.

 

The model is very basic (no front steps, though I did make them for the footplate and the tender - none supplied with the kit - and I did add brakes and the sandbox fillers), and the cabside numbers are too small (but it is my painting/weathering). I had the nameplates/front numberplate made to my commission by Kings Cross (at a considerable cost), which then went straight into their catalogue. The same was so for THE WHITE KNIGHT and CLUMBER; expensive, and they had to be cut out! 

 

I puzzle now what to do with any models of this vintage still in my possession. It's seen on LB during the earlier stages of the layout's construction, but it's never used these days. 

 

Occasionally, I'll pose it and others of the same antiquity, purely for photographic purposes..............

 

 

As here, alongside an equally-ancient Nu-Cast B16/3 (another never used now). 

 

If nothing else, they represent a period in my personal modelling 'journey', but really are rather crude. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Re the older models - Some of us with lesser skills would be happy with buying one from your potential cast off list. That B16 is an example.

[Tony Wright]

44 minutes ago, dibateg said:

Thats probably TW junior pointing out that they've got something wrong on 61039!

 

Regards

Tony

A splendid thought, Tony.

 

But, it's not me. Two reasons. Though I saw 61039 on that day at Chester, I was standing on the road bridge at the other end of the General Station. The special came in off the Manchester road, 61039 came off the train (it's in reverse gear in the picture and the express lamps have already been taken off), reversed on the triangle and then headed off on the Crewe road to turn right at Tattenhall Junction to take the (long-lifted) line to Malpas and Whitchurch. The second reason? The pointy-finger kid is too young to be me. 

 

I do, however, appear in one of the Book of The Halls by Irwell Press, sitting with my late brother and friends on a barrow on Shrewsbury Station, and one day I'm sure I'll appear in one of Keith Pirt's pictures at Retford.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

16 minutes ago, john new said:

Re the older models - Some of us with lesser skills would be happy with buying one from your potential cast off list. That B16 is an example.

Good morning John,

 

Which raises an interesting question (at least to me). What might such an ancient model be worth?

 

 

Under 'studio' conditions, probably not much. 

 

I built this when the Nu-Cast kit first appeared (when was that; the early-'70s?), scratch-building a brass chassis to replace the white metal lump provided. Not everything is as straight (or round) as it should be, it lacks lots of detail (no lamp brackets, no brakes, etc.), though the painting is all mine. At the time, the only drivers of the right diameter available were from Hamblings, which means (because of their chunky treads and flanges) they won't go through 'finescale' pointwork without riding on the chairs or clunking on the crossings, though they're fine through Peco Code 75. It also means they'll never come off without slitting through the axles (they're a forced friction-fit using a Hamblings' wheel press on to spline-ended axles). The bogie wheels are much later replacements - 12-spoked ones not being available all those years ago. 

 

It looks better as a 'layout loco.........

 

 

 

 

Despite the kit's age, it can still be made into a 'reasonable' B16 today..........

 

 

 

As I hope I showed by rebuilding one from the collection of the late Roy Jackson. 

 

This had been started (I don't think by Roy because there was a bit of tool damage present) and had then been dismantled. It had an EM set of frames. I scratch-built an OO set of frames for it, repaired any file/cut marks and put it back together (I can't recall what I did with the EM frames).

 

 

It's far more detailed and has a DJH motor/gearbox combination, unlike 61448 which has a 5-pole XO4 clone and straight Romford worm/gear. 

 

Geoff Haynes' painting is, of course, in a different league from mine......

 

 

Two Nu-Cast B16/3s, separated by almost half a century.

 

I saw both of their prototypes, side by side, at Doncaster in August 1958.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[Barry Ten]

My 2021 is coming along, so I've begun some running trials with a goods train.

 

 

Cheers, Al

[Tony Wright]

15 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

My 2021 is coming along, so I've begun some running trials with a goods train.

 

 

Cheers, Al

Quite splendid! 'Proper' modelling if ever I saw it. 

 

Cheers,

 

Tony. 

[Willie Whizz]

20 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

...

 

If it's any help, Staveley Central's signs were ER blue in 1956, as were Chesterfield Central's. 

 

Oddly, neither Nottingham Victoria (which closed with maroon signage) nor Leicester Central (which also closed with maroon signage) get a mention in the ER section. Does this mean they never got blue totems? 

 

Most, if not all of, the London extension stations closed with maroon signage.

 

...

 

 

Thanks Tony (and others).  Unfortunately the Chesterfield and Staveley examples are too far north - the post-1950 geographical regional boundary for the top end of the GCLE was indeed effectively at Kirkby South Junction (where the GN and the Mansfield Railway split off), just north of Annesley, according to the 1953 Working Timetable of which I have a reprint. That seems to coincide with the known  'administrative boundary' between the Regions in 1950-58; but on the other hand as I understand it the sheds (e.g. Annesley, Leicester etc.) were not renumbered into the LMR series until 1958 when the 'operational boundary' of this part of the route was switched from the ER to LMR.

 

I do appreciate that the stations eventually closed with maroon/red signage and corresponding building paint-schemes; what remains unclear is when they were changed, and from what, during the 1950-58 period.  There is a firm which attends shows (or used to) who would make you up a totem in any lettering and regional colour you wanted, and I'm pretty certain I've seen one of their specimens for Nottingham Victoria in blue ... but that doesn't necessarily make it authentic!

 

Since the layout is based on a genuine 'might-have-been' I suppose I could invoke Rule 1, paint things how I like, and say this was just one more thing that History took a slightly different turn on - but within the constraints of 'fiction based on fact' I'd like to get the 'fact' correct as far as reasonably possible ...

[Tony Wright]

15 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

Thanks Tony (and others).  Unfortunately the Chesterfield and Staveley examples are too far north - the post-1950 geographical regional boundary for the top end of the GCLE was indeed effectively at Kirkby South Junction (where the GN and the Mansfield Railway split off), just north of Annesley, according to the 1953 Working Timetable of which I have a reprint. That seems to coincide with the known  'administrative boundary' between the Regions in 1950-58; but on the other hand as I understand it the sheds (e.g. Annesley, Leicester etc.) were not renumbered into the LMR series until 1958 when the 'operational boundary' of this part of the route was switched from the ER to LMR.

 

I do appreciate that the stations eventually closed with maroon/red signage and corresponding building paint-schemes; what remains unclear is when they were changed, and from what, during the 1950-58 period.  There is a firm which attends shows (or used to) who would make you up a totem in any lettering and regional colour you wanted, and I'm pretty certain I've seen one of their specimens for Nottingham Victoria in blue ... but that doesn't necessarily make it authentic!

 

Since the layout is based on a genuine 'might-have-been' I suppose I could invoke Rule 1, paint things how I like, and say this was just one more thing that History took a slightly different turn on - but within the constraints of 'fiction based on fact' I'd like to get the 'fact' correct as far as reasonably possible ...

The firm you mention which makes the 'facsimile' totems made one for me.........

 

 

It is 'inaccurate' (though beautifully-made) because out of all the intermediate stations between Grantham and Peterborough on the ECML (Ponton, Corby Glen, Little Bytham, Essendine and Tallington), only Essendine ever got the BR/ER deep blue totems. 

 

The 'Bytham' sign on the end wall is a full-sized facsimile of one of the signs once adorning 'Bytham's 'box, the prototype of which is in the Tobbie (might be Toby) Norris pub in Stamford - well worth a look. Ian Wilson made it for me in wood - just like the real thing. 

 

Regarding 'Rule 1': I'd just go ahead. 

 

As an aside, didn't Sheffield Midland Station's signage end up in blue?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

As an aside, didn't Sheffield Midland Station's signage end up in blue?

Probably. The regional boundary was between Chesterfield and Clay Cross, Hasland I think.

[cb900f]

4 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Probably. The regional boundary was between Chesterfield and Clay Cross, Hasland I think.

Horns Bridge, which is approx 1/4 -1/2 mile south of Chesterfield Station.

[Lemmy282]

Sheffield station ended up with blue signs. The railway club I used to belong to had the original Millhouses and Ecclesall running in signs, also in blue.

 

Nigel L

[rodent279]

This forum seems like as good a place as any to ask for a little advice on whitemetal & brass soldering. I've not much experience in this area, a Millholme L & Y Hughes 4-6-0 being my only attempt so far. It's turned out OK, but a bit amateurish compared to the quality of the kits I've seen on here. I built it for my dad, and hand painted & lined it myself.  He was happy enough with it.

 

 

Anyway,  my question is, what size of iron is best suited to white metal soldering, both in terms of power, & tip size?

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by rodent279

[Chuffer Davies]

2 hours ago, rodent279 said:Anyway,  my question is, what size of iron is best suited to white metal soldering, both in terms of power, & tip size?

It is not so much an issue of size or power but temperature.  You need to use low melt solder for white metal which melts at around 80 deg centigrade.  White metal melts at a slightly higher temperature but not significantly higher so your soldering iron needs to remain at a temperature high enough to melt the solder but low enough not to melt the white metal e.g. 90 deg.

 

Power determines how effectively the soldering iron maintains the tip’s temperature, too low and the iron won’t be able to get enough heat into the material to keep the solder flowing.  If you are only using the iron for white metal then 15watts should suffice but if you invest in a soldering iron with adjustable temperature control then the more power you can afford the better.  I’d recommend at least 50 watts for OO scale modelling, higher for O gauge.

The size of the tip is really down to personal preference.  I use a 2.5mm chisel tip as a guide. 

Regards,

Frank

 

[Mike 84C]

I  like the two L&Y locos, I assume both are for your father?  I also have a Dreadnought to finish off, bought as a half built kit. It does not look like an easy or quick build. A fellow club member bought a Baltic kit and offered it me for a very silly price it is very, very badly built and I have a large boiler 0-8-0 to rebuild! It was sat in a loft unused for years! But it does run!  Whose brake gear did you use for the 8 wheel tender? it just lifts the model.

[rodent279]

2 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

I  like the two L&Y locos, I assume both are for your father?  I also have a Dreadnought to finish off, bought as a half built kit. It does not look like an easy or quick build. A fellow club member bought a Baltic kit and offered it me for a very silly price it is very, very badly built and I have a large boiler 0-8-0 to rebuild! It was sat in a loft unused for years! But it does run!  Whose brake gear did you use for the 8 wheel tender? it just lifts the model.

The 0-8-0 isn't my work, Dad bought it some years ago, so I have no idea about the brake rigging. The 4-6-0 is my own work. It is unpowered, he only had the display case, which I now have, as he passed away in 2020.

The Dreadnought was tricky in places, and my inexperience meant it's a bit of a bodge in places. I've just noticed that a slide bar seems to have fallen off!

[Barry Ten]

I've managed to put together quite a few locos with a variable temperature 40 W iron but when it comes to soldering big bits of brass together (I know the question was about W/M) it could do with being more powerful. I have a small 70 W gas iron but I don't like using it in the cramped confines of my workbench.

[Tony Wright]

6 hours ago, rodent279 said:

This forum seems like as good a place as any to ask for a little advice on whitemetal & brass soldering. I've not much experience in this area, a Millholme L & Y Hughes 4-6-0 being my only attempt so far. It's turned out OK, but a bit amateurish compared to the quality of the kits I've seen on here. I built it for my dad, and hand painted & lined it myself.  He was happy enough with it.

 

 

Anyway,  my question is, what size of iron is best suited to white metal soldering, both in terms of power, & tip size?

 

It is a question of size and power - very much so in my view, as well as temperature, of course. 

 

For a quarter of a century or so of my loco-building modelling 'journey', I mucked about soldering white metal kits together with a 25 Watt, non-temperature-controllable iron, employing EAMES' 40 flux (which I think referred to the phosphoric acid concentration, because it didn't half make me cough!) and the firm's sticks of low-melt solder. 

 

I built stuff like this...........

 

 

A Wills A2.

 

 

And a K's O4.

 

Previous efforts had been held together by the old, slow-setting Araldite.

 

Then, over a quarter of a century ago, my wife bought me this for my 50th birthday...........

 

 

An Antex 50 Watt TC iron. 

 

The previous iron had really been one thing nor the other - too hot for tiny white metal parts (they melted) but not enough 'recovery power' for the larger castings. 

 

The Wattage is vital - that's an iron's power of recovery. One can set the temperature as desired, but the Wattage remains the same.

 

I have no idea if this Antex model is still available, but I also used a 60 Watt 'Xtronic' make of iron - same temperature range, but a bit more power of recovery. 

 

Bit types I use are either a 'chisel' sort or one angled at 45 degrees. Tiny, 'pencil'-type bits I find useful for wiring, but not for loco construction. 

 

I always run the risk of melting castings by having the bit temperature turned up higher than that used by the 'timid', but I'm in and out 'fast', using masses of liquid phosphoric acid flux.

 

I use the same irons for frame construction as well, employing 145 degree melt solder, setting the temperature as required. 

 

Once you get a TC iron, I recommend experimenting on scrap bits, finding out what suits you. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[micklner]

As to Flux I wouldnt go anywhere near Phosphoric Acid ever again, simply very dangerous to your health. Hence coughing !!! you should also wear a Face mask at all times if you do use it or similar.

 

https://modelshop.co.uk/Shop/Item/Flux-non-acid-safety-100ml/ITM6286

 

It works just as well, no odour , fumes etc.

 

Pearsons Glass also sell similar and cheaper which I use all the time . It is out of stock at the moment on their website , just keep checking.

[John Isherwood]

3 hours ago, micklner said:

As to Flux I wouldnt go anywhere near Phosphoric Acid ever again, simply very dangerous to your health. Hence coughing !!! you should also wear a Face mask at all times if you do use it or similar.

 

https://modelshop.co.uk/Shop/Item/Flux-non-acid-safety-100ml/ITM6286

 

It works just as well, no odour , fumes etc.

 

Pearsons Glass also sell similar and cheaper which I use all the time . It is out of stock at the moment on their website , just keep checking.

 

I must admit to using phosphoric acid flux - in fact, I dilute the concentrated stuff to produce flux suitable for various soldering applications.

 

What is your reason for avoiding it - it does make you cough when used, but only if ventilation is inadequate?

 

I have to say that it works very well indeed - though I use the brown paste type of flux for electrical work when flux-cored solder is ineffective.

 

As with all things, safety comes down HOW you use products, not necessarily WHAT you use.

 

John Isherwood.

[micklner]

17 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I must admit to using phosphoric acid flux - in fact, I dilute the concentrated stuff to produce flux suitable for various soldering applications.

 

What is your reason for avoiding it - it does make you cough when used, but only if ventilation is inadequate?

 

I have to say that it works very well indeed - though I use the brown paste type of flux for electrical work when flux-cored solder is ineffective.

 

As with all things, safety comes down HOW you use products, not necessarily WHAT you use.

 

John Isherwood.

Read this

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid

 

Your choice !!.

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, micklner said:

As to Flux I wouldnt go anywhere near Phosphoric Acid ever again, simply very dangerous to your health. Hence coughing !!! you should also wear a Face mask at all times if you do use it or similar.

 

https://modelshop.co.uk/Shop/Item/Flux-non-acid-safety-100ml/ITM6286

 

It works just as well, no odour , fumes etc.

 

Pearsons Glass also sell similar and cheaper which I use all the time . It is out of stock at the moment on their website , just keep checking.

Thanks Mick,

 

Out of interest, is nickle silver the American spelling? 

 

I'm always suspicious of products where the spelling is incorrect in adverts.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[John Isherwood]

53 minutes ago, micklner said:

Read this

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphoric_acid

 

Your choice !!.

 

Thank you for that; having read it, I am less worried about it than before!

 

If it is used in cola and toothpaste, and is described as being not a strong acid, perhaps you could point me at the information that has motivated you to stay well clear of it?

 

As I posted, it is not WHAT you use that matters; it is HOW you use it.

 

John Isherwood.

[micklner]

Yes it takes rust off metal , and it must do your lungs a power of good for every sniff/cough, especially when you forget the mask and/or dont open the windows .

 

The amount in Toothpaste are minute and are not the same type of acid or strength as in Flux . All of this is mentioned in the article I posted. Females are potential suffers of osteoporosis , plus other nasties all associatted with continued use.

 

As already said each to their own, the risk can be avoided quite easily.

[Andy Hayter]

If you drink a glass per day of cola (or lemonade - I don't think wiki mentioned that) per day, you will be taking in more phosphoric acid internally than you will use in a couple hours intensive soldering - where it all stays outside the body.

 

Please stop the scare stories.