Wright writes.....

[thegreenhowards]

On 14/07/2022 at 10:43, Tony Wright said:

Good morning David,

 

I think you're right (my memory isn't what it was!). 

 

Somewhere, I have a picture of Andy Sparkes' DUKE OF ROTHESAY. I'll have to dig it out.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Here are a couple of photos of ‘my’ Duke of Rothesay doing what it was built for - fast goods. You told me it was ex Gamston Bank when I bought it. It looks similar to the one in your photo (as it should!) but has a rather more extreme weathering so that one is probably David’s. 
 

 

 

Andy

 

[grahame]

1 hour ago, Keith Turbutt said:

  

What I was really asking was ' Assuming it is more complex is there more satisfaction in building and researching a steam loco and once completed seeing all the moving parts working rather than building a mainline diesel loco where there is little visible movement, shunters excluded, and for mainline locos at least, constructing a box like body.

 

Nope, not for me.

 

But the 'shutting down' and re-phrasing the question is just making it sound like a preference and bias for steam locos, especially the rather denigrating 'box like body' comment. Those who have built diesel and electric locos will know just how difficult getting the shape correct is with their many subtle nuances and which is not a simple matter of 'constructing a box'.

 

Probably best to leave the competitive 'which is best and most satisfying' to individuals personal choice. There is little to be gained from postulating on which genre is best to prefer and most satisfying to build. Whatever people choose to model I'd guess that they enjoy it, otherwise they wouldn't do it. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by grahame

[grahame]

2 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

 

I built the 1/48 Eagle too, Grahame. It was very satisfying!

 

 

And at 22" long, it's big too.

 

I've got the kit and have looked at the parts and read the instructions. I'm contemplating whether I need to get the turned aluminium engine bells. They are rather expensive and I was wondering if I could make a satisfactory job of painting the injection moulded ones.

 

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Here are a couple of photos of ‘my’ Duke of Rothesay doing what it was built for - fast goods. You told me it was ex Gamston Bank when I bought it. It looks similar to the one in your photo (as it should!) but has a rather more extreme weathering so that one is probably David’s. 
 

 

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy,

 

I can't find any pictures of this loco on Little Bytham, so I (obviously) didn't take any, but it is ex-Gamston Bank.

 

If anything, it's too clean! Every time I saw the real DUKE OF ROTHESAY, it was almost impossible to identify it, such was the level of New England grime. We knew (as 'spotters) that it must be 60508, because (at the time) it was the only English-based A2/1 (I never saw any of the Scottish-based trio).

 

I think yours is a metal kit-adaptation, which John Houlden originally built for himself. He then built two PDK A2/1s; one seen earlier for Tom Foster, and the one below..........

 

 

Built for Gilbert Barnatt; here seen on his original 'Peterborough' layout. 

 

The finish is much more-prototypical than on my own 60508.........

 

 

Though it must have been clean at some points during its existence. 

 

I built a PDK A2/1 for a customer some years ago, which Ian Rathbone painted as 60509 in LNER green. It made the front cover of BRM if I recall correctly.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[PMP]

3 hours ago, Keith Turbutt said:

What I was really asking was ' Assuming it is more complex is there more satisfaction in building and researching a steam loco and once completed seeing all the moving parts working rather than building a mainline diesel loco where there is little visible movement, shunters excluded, and for mainline locos at least, constructing a box like body.

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

The answer to your question this time is ‘no’. There’s as much satisfaction making D&E items as there is steam regardless of  ‘moving bits’.

These are moving bellows on a 4mm DMU, why would I get less satisfaction watching these compress and expand keeping the vehicles prototypically connected, than if I’d built a steam locomotive?

Or alternatively cutting a hole in the roof, fitting the internal cowling fans with correct shaped blades,  fixing the roof grill and framework exactly to profile and diameter.  Also fixing frost grills  with new framework having removed the moulded versions. Just because external bits don’t move, doesn’t make  D&E specific modelling any simpler, or less satisfying.

 

[Northmoor]

8 hours ago, grahame said:

 

Surely any satisfaction is derived from the creative modelling activity, so why would the subject matter? But in terms of preference I'd not choose either steam or diesel, and would select electric traction, either loco or multiple unit for railway subjects, although currently my next kit building projects are a 1/350 Warspite battleship, a 1/48 Eagle transporter spaceship and a 1/9 C21 emperor dalek.

Absolutely true; my latest projects - which have been taking an inordinate time to finish off - have been a 1/43 Mini Cooper and a 1/24 BMW 320i Turbo, both kits from the early 80s.  They were unfinished from my youth and in my long term plan to work through the projects pile/boxes/half the loft, I've been focusing on the damaged and unfinished model aircraft, cars and ships from my childhood.  Just spending 30 minutes sat in the garden, painting some bits of plastic or carefully applying decals (and hoping they don't fall apart after 40 years of storage) is a greatly relaxing switch off from the daily routine.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, grahame said:

a 1/9 C21 emperor dalek.

Photos when finished please!

[Tony Wright]

It amuses me when apparently 'harmless' comments are interpreted as even being 'divisive' (perhaps this statement might even be taken that way).

 

I don't think 'box-like body' was a derogatory description (after all, most steam-outline locos' tenders are 'box-like' in appearance, with some having a few curved bits). That said, though I've scratch-built many steam-outline locos, I've never attempted the same thing with regard to a diesel-outline model; no, much too difficult. Broken down to their component parts, my scratch-built steamers are really (body-wise) a series of cylinders/cones/cubes/cuboids (I've never scratch-built a streamliner), with none of the large number of subtle curves and apertures displayed by many diesel-/electric-outline prototypes. 

 

Though it's very dangerous to generalise ( though I often say 'dangerous' things!), there are probably more modellers who build kits for steam-outline prototypes than more-modern outlines. From my observations (and my taking photographs), in the main, those who create fantastic models of diesels and electrics usually (note the italics, please) start with an RTR example and then make it into something really special by employing lots of aftermarket/scratch detailing parts. That's not to say there are not numbers who do both - build kits and detail diesels/electrics. As for those who scratch-build diesels/electrics (as I've indicated), I take my metaphorical hat off to them. Whatever medium is employed, it would be way beyond my modelling capabilities. 

 

Taking Stoke Summit as an example; in steam-mode, around 99% of the motive power was built from scratch or from kits. In diesel-mode, the percentage was the opposite, with just one (as far as I can recall) Dave Alexander BTH Type 1 running. Granted, no diesel loco was 'out of the box'; no, all had been extensively detailed/altered/improved/weathered/etc, but the majority was RTR-based. There were a few 'conversions' - the likes of KESTREL, LION, FALCON and so on (not required now?). All of the team agreed that it was just not worth attempting to build kits (apart from one or two - including Tony Geary's MTK Cravens DMU - the poor boy was still twitching months after he'd completed it!). 

 

 

 

Tony made a very good job of this 'difficult' kit. 

 

But, who'd build such a thing now?

 

 

 

When there is a brilliant RTR example from Bachmann - detailed by me, weathered by Rob Davey. 

 

As for Deltics............

 

 

Until the advent of Bachmann's EE Type 5, Stoke's were all much-modified Lima ones. These were all sold-on when Bachmann's Deltic appeared. 

 

Were Stoke Summit still being exhibited, then the Bachmann ones might well be sold-on, to be replaced by.............

 

 

Accurascale's incredible example. 

 

In fact, most of Stoke's diesels would probably be replaced now..............

 

Including........

 

 

Tom Wright's FALCON - built from Lima, A1 and scratch parts.

 

 

Tom Wright's LION conversion (seen running on LB years ago, and since sold-on, anyway).

 

 

And Rob Kinsey's Dave Alexander BTH Type 1. 

 

In a way, I think what I've just illustrated shows how the need to build/modify RTR 'modern outline' locos has diminished in more-recent years. That said, there's still that great satisfaction in being able to say 'I made/modified/detailed/improved/weathered that model', whatever its origin or outline.

 

As has been shown of late by others in these pages, the 'craft' of railway modelling is still very much alive! 

 

 

 

 

[billbedford]

On 11/07/2022 at 20:39, zr2498 said:

Agreed. I believe some parts for F1 cars are now 3D printed as the complexity of the machining would be impossible. I expect that would be extremely robust

Yep

 

Here's an article with photo's of the printers used to produce parts for Alpha-Romeo, and some of the parts too. 

[thegreenhowards]

I thought I’d show what I’ve been up to on my holidays.  I took a D&S kit and a basic tool set with me and did an hour most days during my ‘siesta’. This is the result.

 

 

 

 

It’s a 7mm GCR milk van. I’m pleased with how it’s turned out although one or two more tools like new bending bars and a dremel would have helped! It’s missing the door handles because they weren’t supplied and my 7mm spares box isn’t as well stocked as my 4mm version. I will give Danny a ring or failing that make some. But either way they can be fitted after painting.

 

I’m now home and finished off the roof yesterday and cleaned it ready for painting today. Apologies for those who follow Coulsdon Works and have already seen it.

 

This will be painted in LNER coach brown. Tony, could you remind me which car paint colour you used for that?

 

Andy

[micklner]

12 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I thought I’d show what I’ve been up to on my holidays.  I took a D&S kit and a basic tool set with me and did an hour most days during my ‘siesta’. This is the result.

 

 

 

 

It’s a 7mm GCR milk van. I’m pleased with how it’s turned out although one or two more tools like new bending bars and a dremel would have helped! It’s missing the door handles because they weren’t supplied and my 7mm spares box isn’t as well stocked as my 4mm version. I will give Danny a ring or failing that make some. But either way they can be fitted after painting.

 

I’m now home and finished off the roof yesterday and cleaned it ready for painting today. Apologies for those who follow Coulsdon Works and have already seen it.

 

This will be painted in LNER coach brown. Tony, could you remind me which car paint colour you used for that?

 

Andy

Snap !!

 

4mm version , nice kit.

 

 

A bit dusty at the moment.

 

I blocked behind the Louvres with Black Plastic after painting, and before slight weathering was done.

 

Painted using Precision LNER Teak .

[thegreenhowards]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

Snap !!

 

4mm version , nice kit.

 

 

A bit dusty at the moment.

 

I blocked behind the Louvres with Black Plastic after painting, and before slight weathering was done.

 

Painted using Precision LNER Teak .

Nice Mick,

 

They're rather cute aren’t they?! What do you use yours for as I thought you were post war and they must have been on their last legs by then. Mine will be used with an NER milk van (old vac formed kit) on our club 1920/30s Minories style layout which has a milk dock (artistic licence?) .

 

Are you suggesting that the LNER Teak paint is a good approximation for coach brown or were you going for a varnished teak look?

 

Do you happen to know where this bit goes? - c.12mm diameter - it was left over and not mentioned in the instructions!

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I thought I’d show what I’ve been up to on my holidays.  I took a D&S kit and a basic tool set with me and did an hour most days during my ‘siesta’. This is the result.

 

 

 

 

It’s a 7mm GCR milk van. I’m pleased with how it’s turned out although one or two more tools like new bending bars and a dremel would have helped! It’s missing the door handles because they weren’t supplied and my 7mm spares box isn’t as well stocked as my 4mm version. I will give Danny a ring or failing that make some. But either way they can be fitted after painting.

 

I’m now home and finished off the roof yesterday and cleaned it ready for painting today. Apologies for those who follow Coulsdon Works and have already seen it.

 

This will be painted in LNER coach brown. Tony, could you remind me which car paint colour you used for that?

 

Andy

Good evening Andy,

 

Your model looks very good.

 

Which brown from the acrylic range? It's a Vauxhall one but I stupidly failed to note that it was metallic. I used it nonetheless, because the colour was about right, and (fortunately) it didn't show much reflective quality. If it had, I'd have used a different brown from the range and over-sprayed it. Anyway, any 'shiny' effect disappeared beneath the 'Dullcote' and weathering, but I'd be wary of using anything metallic, just in case it dazzled in the sunshine! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[micklner]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Nice Mick,

 

They're rather cute aren’t they?! What do you use yours for as I thought you were post war and they must have been on their last legs by then. Mine will be used with an NER milk van (old vac formed kit) on our club 1920/30s Minories style layout which has a milk dock (artistic licence?) .

 

Are you suggesting that the LNER Teak paint is a good approximation for coach brown or were you going for a varnished teak look?

 

Do you happen to know where this bit goes? - c.12mm diameter - it was left over and not mentioned in the instructions!

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

I model the whole LNER period.

Mine runs with Suburban Coaches. No I am not suggesting Teak as such e.g scumbling, Precision do a LNER Coach Teak P60 which used to be called LNER Brown . No idea why they have changed the description/name. It is the shade I have used on the Milk Van, also on my ex NER Coaches on my modelling thread. On reading Tony's reply I do not recomend Metallic shades !!.

 

As to the mystery Casting no idea perhaps its off another kit, and fallen in the box by mistake.

Edited July 16, 2022 by micklner

[Jamiel]

Advice on forming a tumblehome.

I have seen lots of brass carriages on this thread and so presume that there is a lot of knowledge about forming the curve on the sides. I have built carriages with pre-rolled sides, but others must have to be formed.
 

I am building a 6 car Transpennine Class 124 DMU using Worsley Works etches for the sides, being glued over plastic Replica Railways MK1 coach bodies, for roof, ends and support. The sides are flat, and are a much thicker etch than Craftsman conversion kits I have used in the past, which were very thin brass. The Craftsman kits are designed as an overlay, the Worsley ones are designed to be used as the sides alone, but with some sanding back on the replica bodies still work well.
 

I formed the two driving cars tumblehomes by placing the sides in a vice with 12mm plywood strips about 40cm long over the bottom 8mm and then using another strip of ply to gradually bend the top, I pushed repeatedly and gradually worked the curve in, over-bending to allow the brass to come back to what I needed.
 

I am wondering if rolling the eight remaining sides might be a better way to go?
 

Are there any videos showing how to do this, or threads (preferably with the photos still active) showing how to go about this?
 

A couple of photos showing the bent sides on the two driving units.
 

 

 

I am sure that people may use different methods.
 

Any help would be appreciated.
 

Jamie

Edited July 17, 2022 by Jamiel

[Michael Edge]

Does that include the Griddle car?

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Jamiel said:

Advice on forming a tumblehome.

I have seen lots of brass carriages on this thread and so presume that there is a lot of knowledge about forming the curve on the sides. I have built carriages with pre-rolled sides, but others must have to be formed.
 

I am building a 6 car Transpennine Class 124 DMU using Worsley Works etches for the sides, being glued over plastic Replica Railways MK1 coach bodies, for roof, ends and support. The sides are flat, and are a much thicker etch than Craftsman conversion kits I have used in the past, which were very thin brass. The Craftsman kits are designed as an overlay, the Worsley ones are designed to be used as the sides alone, but with some sanding back on the replica bodies still work well.
 

I formed the two driving cars tumblehomes by placing the sides in a vice with 12mm plywood strips about 40cm long over the bottom 8mm and then using another strip of ply to gradually bend the top, I pushed repeatedly and gradually worked the curve in, over-bending to allow the brass to come back to what I needed.
 

I am wondering if rolling the eight remaining sides might be a better way to go?
 

Are there any videos showing how to do this, or threads (preferably with the photos still active) showing how to go about this?
 

A couple of photos showing the bent sides on the two driving units.
 

 

 

I am sure that people may use different methods.
 

Any help would be appreciated.
 

Jamie

Good afternoon Jamie,

 

I've used rolling bars for this purpose.

 

The trick (if it is a trick) is not to actually turn the rollers, but use the two screws to tighten down on the carriage tumblehomes until the required radius is achieved.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jamiel]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

Does that include the Griddle car?

Yes Mike, it will include the Griddle, I am making the set as they were when first run at the start of the 1960s.

I may yet be getting in contact about powering the set, as it looks like the Replica Railways powered chassis are no longer available. I really like the motor bogies you created for the LNER EB1 you made, and if I can build something similar it could make for a good and powerful drive until. A guess a pair of Black Beetles might also be an option though.

Jamie

[Jamiel]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good afternoon Jamie,

 

I've used rolling bars for this purpose.

 

The trick (if it is a trick) is not to actually turn the rollers, but use the two screws to tighten down on the carriage tumblehomes until the required radius is achieved.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thanks Tony

That sounds like really good advice, I will have to see if anyone nearby has a set I can use for the remaining sides. I'll get in touch with LMRS where I used to be a member and see if anyone can help me out.

Many thanks.

Jamie

Edited July 17, 2022 by Jamiel

[thegreenhowards]

I’m sure rolling bars would make the job easier, but I’ve always baulked at the price for something which I’d only use occasionally. So I use the handle of a kid’s beach spade which is about 15-20mm in diameter and just press the brass down on that until it’s the right shape.

 

It works for me.

 

Andy

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’m sure rolling bars would make the job easier, but I’ve always baulked at the price for something which I’d only use occasionally. So I use the handle of a kid’s beach spade which is about 15-20mm in diameter and just press the brass down on that until it’s the right shape.

 

It works for me.

 

Andy

Good evening Andy,

 

If it works for you, that's fine. You're right as well in implying that rolling bars are not cheap (no precision tool should be).

 

I suppose it's slightly different in my case, inasmuch as rolling bars (and bending bars) were (are still) essential tools in my modelling armoury, especially in my professional loco-building days. 

 

May I ask; how do others form tumblehomes and/or roll flat boilers/smokeboxes/fireboxes without rolling or bending bars?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[thegreenhowards]

12 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Andy,

 

If it works for you, that's fine. You're right as well in implying that rolling bars are not cheap (no precision tool should be).

 

I suppose it's slightly different in my case, inasmuch as rolling bars (and bending bars) were (are still) essential tools in my modelling armoury, especially in my professional loco-building days. 

 

May I ask; how do others form tumblehomes and/or roll flat boilers/smokeboxes/fireboxes without rolling or bending bars?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

You may shudder but the milk van I showed yesterday which I built whilst on holiday with very basic tools had the tumblehome formed on the handrail leading from my room down to reception. I did get a couple of funny looks!

 

 

[Chuffer Davies]

50 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Andy,

 

If it works for you, that's fine. You're right as well in implying that rolling bars are not cheap (no precision tool should be).

 

I suppose it's slightly different in my case, inasmuch as rolling bars (and bending bars) were (are still) essential tools in my modelling armoury, especially in my professional loco-building days. 

 

May I ask; how do others form tumblehomes and/or roll flat boilers/smokeboxes/fireboxes without rolling or bending bars?

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Hi Tony,

I think we have had this discussion before but it is worth repeating I feel as I sense there continues to be an element of fear promoted around rolling boilers in particular. 

 

For boilers I use nothing more than a piece of foam rubber backed matting and a length of 1/2inch brass rod.  Choosing the right matting is critical.  Too soft and the whole plate of metal will compress the matting not just the piece directly under the rod.  Too firm and it will be nigh impossible to press the metal into the matting to get it to bend.  A soft computer mouse mat is ideal and this can be further improved by trimming it so that it is no wider than the length of the longest boiler you are likely to be rolling, there is no point having to waste energy compressing additional matting.  The matting I use was actually provided as part of the packaging for a Zimo Decoder when they used to be beautifully presented in a hinged tin box. Sadly Zimo no longer provide such packaging.

 

It is my belief that anyone can roll a boiler, no matter how cack-handed they are.  As an illustration of this, I once had a conversation with a colleague at work about building model locomotives and the subject of having to roll boilers came up.  He was astonished that such a technique was required and immediately concluded it was far beyond the average person's abilities to roll one.  I disagreed and to prove my point I took to work an etched boiler from a Mitchell kit, and my brass rod and matting and got my colleague to roll the boiler for me there and then.  It took him less than 5 minutes.  He had no previous experience, did no other form of model building as a hobby, and yet managed without difficulty.  The reality is that you only need to get the barrel approximately round, and preferably slightly over curved, because the formers at each end will pull the barrel into the correct shape when they are fitted.

 

I don't have any experience of forming tumble homes or coach rooves, so cannot comment on the benefits of rolling bars for such things, but as far as 4mm boilers are concerned I personally have no need of them.

 

If you have any doubts get hold of a spare rectangle of thin brass or n/silver and give it a go....

 

Regards,

 

Frank 

 

   

[rodent279]

11 minutes ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Tony,

I think we have had this discussion before but it is worth repeating I feel as I sense there continues to be an element of fear promoted around rolling boilers in particular. 

 

For boilers I use nothing more than a piece of foam rubber backed matting and a length of 1/2inch brass rod.  Choosing the right matting is critical.  Too soft and the whole plate of metal will compress the matting not just the piece directly under the rod.  Too firm and it will be nigh impossible to press the metal into the matting to get it to bend.  A soft computer mouse mat is ideal and this can be further improved by trimming it so that it is no wider than the length of the longest boiler you are likely to be rolling, there is no point having to waste energy compressing additional matting.  The matting I use was actually provided as part of the packaging for a Zimo Decoder when they used to be beautifully presented in a hinged tin box. Sadly Zimo no longer provide such packaging.

 

It is my belief that anyone can roll a boiler, no matter how cack-handed they are.  As an illustration of this, I once had a conversation with a colleague at work about building model locomotives and the subject of having to roll boilers came up.  He was astonished that such a technique was required and immediately concluded it was far beyond the average person's abilities to roll one.  I disagreed and to prove my point I took to work an etched boiler from a Mitchell kit, and my brass rod and matting and got my colleague to roll the boiler for me there and then.  It took him less than 5 minutes.  He had no previous experience, did no other form of model building as a hobby, and yet managed without difficulty.  The reality is that you only need to get the barrel approximately round, and preferably slightly over curved, because the formers at each end will pull the barrel into the correct shape when they are fitted.

 

I don't have any experience of forming tumble homes or coach rooves, so cannot comment on the benefits of rolling bars for such things, but as far as 4mm boilers are concerned I personally have no need of them.

 

If you have any doubts get hold of a spare rectangle of thin brass or n/silver and give it a go....

 

Regards,

 

Frank 

 

   

How does the diameter of the bar influence the minimum/maximum radius of curve that can be rolled?

[Chuffer Davies]

20 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

How does the diameter of the bar influence the minimum/maximum radius of curve that can be rolled?

Other than the bar needs to be of a thinner diameter than that of the boiler the actual diameter doesn't matter.  It is the degree to which the metal is pressed into the matting that counts.  I find that even with a soft mat you still have to press quite hard to get the amount of curve required for a typical boiler so there is little or no risk of over doing it.  If you think about it the diameter of the bars on a rolling machine are fixed but the machine can roll different diameter boilers by adjusting the offset of the bars.  Its effectively the same with a mat.

Give it a try with some scrap metal and you'll see.

Frank