Ncl Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 3 hours ago, davidw said: Wow - would Nick be described as a beginner? Thank you for your kind words. The twin is made from two Comet kits with MJT underframe parts and a scratch built break end. The other kits are Parkside and D and S. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 3 hours ago, grahame said: Probably about time something was done about it. Perhaps supplier accreditation, product checking before use, due diligence or whatever is necessary. You've presumably not had any dealings with solid fuel then. Attached are a couple of pictures, see if you can tell the difference between the different fuels, they're all black and will burn and provide heat under the correct conditions. These two while looking very similar are a medium quality housecoal, excuse the odd bits in one of them as we burn all our address labels and such so there were lots in here awaiting the next time we light a fire, the other was obtained from a house clearance where the householder, being a model engineer with steam models had some properly sorted and graded steam coal. I brought it home for the fire anyway. This is smokeless coal, again there are different grades and brands. It burns given the right conditions and provides lots of heat. Which would you suggest be put in a loco tender for a mainline run? 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 1 hour ago, great central said: You've presumably not had any dealings with solid fuel then. Actually I have, but I wouldn't be picking a fuel for steam locos. I'd expect an experienced professional to do that. And to get it right. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
B15nac Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 9 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Thanks for showing us your work Neil, It looks very good. You raise a very interesting further point regarding gearboxes; that of time saved set against cost. How does one evaluate time, especially if, by saving it, one also, just about automatically, has a beautifully-sweet prime mover? I think the discussions have probably all been aired now, and, as I've said many times, 'You pays your money and you takes your choice'. I fully understand yours. Two constructively-critical points on your 'Brit' if I may? Replace the bogie wheels with correct nine-spokers, and fill in the triangular gaps in the frames (designed to accommodate an open-framed motor) with Plastikard 'wedges' of appropriate thickness (soldering brass in-fills at this stage is a bit too tricky). Regards, Tony. I must admit I didn't realise the bogie wheels were incorrect I will get this sorted along with the frame cut outs. Thanks Tony. Regards Neil 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, grahame said: Actually I have, but I wouldn't be picking a fuel for steam locos. I'd expect an experienced professional to do that. And to get it right. Isn't it so easy to condemn others from the comfort of your armchair, when you clearly don't have a true understanding of the subject. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LNER4479 Posted June 20, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 20, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I suspect that the complete ban on coal extraction in the UK and attempt to ban coal consumption - both highly laudable in general - will be a bit like BR's ban on main-line steam in the decade after 1968; after a while a sense of proportion will be achieved and it will be realised that a small amount of extraction of good quality steam coal to support a heritage industry makes an insignificant contribution to atmospheric CO2 compared to the emissions of the UK as a whole - folk will need to give up their private cars (however propelled), central heating, air conditioning, H&M Duette controllers, etc. well before the collapse of heritage railway sector makes any difference! Those who don't already know might be interested to know that Tornado - and several other mainline locos and preserved locos - already run on imported Russian coal. And it's bl00dy good stuff! As anyone who witnessed 60163's recent performance over the S&C will testify accordingly. If you don't have the full 9mins 46secs to spare, just tune in at 6:45 and watch for 30 seconds with the volume turned up and your fingers in your ears: That's right - coal imported from Russia. What's the total carbon footprint involved in that operation compared to digging out the home grown stuff? Edited June 20, 2021 by LNER4479 17 6 1 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Wright Posted June 20, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2021 2 hours ago, Ncl said: Thank you for your kind words. The twin is made from two Comet kits with MJT underframe parts and a scratch built break end. The other kits are Parkside and D and S. Don't forget I've got your N5 here, Nick. How did we miss it? Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2021 29 minutes ago, grahame said: Actually I have, but I wouldn't be picking a fuel for steam locos. I'd expect an experienced professional to do that. And to get it right. Interestingly I have a company magazine from the 1930s describing exactly how they did that necessary testing to establish gasification on heating, calorific values, ash content, caking properties etc. The problem is you would need a permanently manned laboratory to measure all of these factors - and more. I doubt those professionals exist any more "locally" outside of the remaining coalfired power stations - so Germany might be the closest option. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Wright Posted June 20, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2021 Yet another Bachmann/Comet B1 for Little Bytham. Just got to weather the motion now................................ 12 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieR4489 Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 19 minutes ago, LNER4479 said: already run on imported Russian coal. And it's bl00dy good stuff! I remember someone at the North Norfolk Railway saying that they used to get Russian coal and it was awful. The crews found bits of polystyrene it in which was curious as the coal was priced according to weight not volume. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 16 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said: Interestingly I have a company magazine from the 1930s describing exactly how they did that necessary testing to establish gasification on heating, calorific values, ash content, caking properties etc. The problem is you would need a permanently manned laboratory to measure all of these factors - and more. I doubt those professionals exist any more "locally" outside of the remaining coalfired power stations - so Germany might be the closest option. most of the coal sourced for the heritage steam movement, whether it comes from the few remaining UK sources, or from further away is perfectly good. It doesn't matter where it comes from, you can't analyse every lump . As mentioned previously, duff coal can look fine and initially appear to burn fine, only to turn out to be dreadful stuff which can bring a steam locomotive to it's metaphorical knees. the big railway is such a busy place nowadays, there isn't the luxury of stopping for a 'blow up' or to rebuild the fire, without causing untold delays to other trains. therefore, the crew of 60103 would have had no choice but to declare the locomotive a failure and substitute a diesel. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, JamieR4489 said: I remember someone at the North Norfolk Railway saying that they used to get Russian coal and it was awful. The crews found bits of polystyrene it in which was curious as the coal was priced according to weight not volume. Railways across the UK have, to a greater or lesser extent, been using imported coal from Russia and elsewhere for years now. as Graham mentions, most consider it to be very good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LNER4479 Posted June 20, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 20, 2021 10 hours ago, Clem said: Not throwing brickbats but a set of instructions - always sent from Chris Gibbon at High-level which consists of a general tips page (applying to all versions of gearbox) plus one specifically for the model of gearbox bought, really covers most of your problems. Hi Clem, No issues with what you say - and thanks for posting this to highlight how well engineered the HL gearboxes are and the excellent instructions that go with them. I did say at the start of my post that it was in no way intended as any criticism of the products so I'm happy for you to enphasise how good they are. 10 hours ago, Clem said: Once you've done a couple and got used to it, they really are a doddle and at less than half the price of the less flexible DJH models, they are surely worth a the extra bit of effort required? And if you build it with reasonable care, you get a sweet runner every time. That (highlighted in red) was real reason for my post. In the DJH versus HL debate, I was merely highlighting that, however good the product is, it is possible to introduce errors if you DON'T take care. Some have intimated that the things fall together in your hands and that it's virtually impossible to get them wrong. I'm sorry, I just don't subscribe to that view. I'm sure it doesn't apply to anyone on here (of course!) but the evidence points to there being those out there who don't take care or - dare I say it - whose enthusiasm outstrips their skill level. Who remembers the poor old DJH A1 that turned up at Tonys' with - amongst other things - the front buffers bizarrely fitted to the rear dragbox (ie under the cab)? I rest my case. For what it's worth ... I built my first loco kit (unsuccessfully) about 40 years ago and have built a fair few since, with increasing degrees of success. I have assembled various types of gearbox along the way and generally turn out a reasonably sweet-running loco. I usually read the instructions (if they're provided). It was just that, with the example I illustrated, in order to try and make the point I was making and because the (I'm sure excellent) instructions had got separated from the product on its way to me, I proceeded as I did. I'm genuinely annoyed at 'missing' the trick with the thingy-that-goes-over-the-end-of-the-motor-spindle-to-keep-the-box-square and thank you and others for pointing this out, as it clearly significantly de-risks that part of the operation. If I need to set the record any straighter, then I offer the following from another commission build a couple of years ago. Not just a HL gearbox but a whole HL loco. Without the motor fitted, the loco would roll in this state down a slight incline. You can see the gearbox in this view, a three stage design, if I'm not mistaken? Incredibly tight for space - the most compact loco I've built to date - and the gearbox is purpose-designed for an application like this. It was beautifully designed, I read the instructions (honest!) and went together superbly. In fact, the whole kit was a minor miracle of engineering. I was greatly impressed with the redundant tabs and braces that were designed-in to aid simplicity of construction - in accordance with the instructions! Graham 17 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northmoor Posted June 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2021 36 minutes ago, Denbridge said: Railways across the UK have, to a greater or lesser extent, been using imported coal from Russia and elsewhere for years now. as Graham mentions, most consider it to be very good. To praise or write off all "Russian Coal" is a bit pointless when the country covers what, eight time zones? The qualities of British coal could vary within any of our coal mining areas, which were sometimes less than 20 miles across. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Fox 34F Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 6 hours ago, Denbridge said: a few years back, I was involved with a preserved Burrell traction engine. At the beginning of one season, the owner took delivery of a coal supply from his usual supplier of good welsh steam coal,always from the same colliery. In those days coal was delivered in large sacks and had a batch number tracing it right back to the seam. Of the 20 or so bags delivered, all but one were of the usual high quality. The exception looked the same, initially burnt the same, but out on the road, wouldn't make a hot fire and clinkered terribly. we had no option but to pull off the road, dump the fire and start again. I suspect a similar situation occured with 60103. the difference being, that it is a major undertaking to replace the complete fire and tender coal load on a mainline pacific. I feel for the passengers and the support crew, but that kind of issue isn't one that can be recovered from quickly and easily. They would have had no option other than pull the loco from the train. Looking at the reports the fire clinkered up on the climb to Stoke Junction. 60103 had to have a Blow-Up. Before the end of steam she would have come off at Grantham and be replaced. An alternative would be to clean out the fire and start again, but nowadays there is nowhere to do this. At least they managed to get as far as Retford, before an assisting Loco was added. Paul 1 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post Clive Mortimore Posted June 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted June 20, 2021 31 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said: Looking at the reports the fire clinkered up on the climb to Stoke Junction. 60103 had to have a Blow-Up. Before the end of steam she would have come off at Grantham and be replaced. An alternative would be to clean out the fire and start again, but nowadays there is nowhere to do this. At least they managed to get as far as Retford, before an assisting Loco was added. Paul Hi Paul See the effect that Mr Wright has on trains. When he looks at a model railway it stops working properly, he has now expanded his mystical powers to causing problems with the real thing. 1 1 1 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROY@34F Posted June 20, 2021 Share Posted June 20, 2021 11 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said: Looking at the reports the fire clinkered up on the climb to Stoke Junction. 60103 had to have a Blow-Up. Before the end of steam she would have come off at Grantham and be replaced. An alternative would be to clean out the fire and start again, but nowadays there is nowhere to do this. At least they managed to get as far as Retford, before an assisting Loco was added. Paul You're dead right there Paul. I remember well breaking up clinker with the bent dart or pricker, as it was clogging up the firebars. Restricted air through the firebars equals poor combustion and poor steaming obviously, and one of the main reasons of poor steaming I would suggest. You must have good air flow to burn coal, primary air through the firebars, and secondly air through the firehole door. to help prevent black smoke, which is unburnt energy. When cleaning the fire on the ash pits at Grantham, clinker was the main problem. I don't recall ever having to stop for a blow up, but the fires were often terribly "mucky", especially on the iron ore empties returning from Frodingham ... happy days though, even so. Regards, Roy. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Blandford1969 Posted June 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2021 If the coal was like the Russian batch we had just before Christmas it was not so much forming clinker as sitting on the bars, not going through so the fire bed was building up with the very top layer burning, but everything underneath was ash. We had a box full of fire (with a West Country) and no heat and at midnight we were digging it out to get air through. So I feel for the crew. We have had Russian since then which has been great, I think we are still on Russian at the moment, reasonable heat, not too much smoke or clinker. Similarly back in the 90s we had a batch of coal from Poland (I seem to remember) which flashed up quickly with a lot of heat, then cooled then got hot again. That year and potentially that coal brought together a perfect storm of boiler problems, those of whom worked through it would rather forget. To add to some of the earlier comments, you cannot tell how good or bad the coal is going to be looking at it. I remember us taking a tender of coke once as an experiment (again on a West Country) after 72 miles she sat down and we had to dig it out. Again, not clinker just hot ash that did not break down and just sat there. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted June 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2021 (edited) But there's nothing very new here. The Carlisle-based engines and crews involved in the Aisgill accident of 1913 were fighting bad coal, despite samples of coal from the local collieries supplying Durran Hill shed having been assessed by the company's chemist and found to be perfectly satisfactory. Edited June 20, 2021 by Compound2632 3 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 20, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2021 3 hours ago, Denbridge said: most of the coal sourced for the heritage steam movement, whether it comes from the few remaining UK sources, or from further away is perfectly good. It doesn't matter where it comes from, you can't analyse every lump . As mentioned previously, duff coal can look fine and initially appear to burn fine, only to turn out to be dreadful stuff which can bring a steam locomotive to it's metaphorical knees. the big railway is such a busy place nowadays, there isn't the luxury of stopping for a 'blow up' or to rebuild the fire, without causing untold delays to other trains. therefore, the crew of 60103 would have had no choice but to declare the locomotive a failure and substitute a diesel. So if I have understood your post correctly, with around 100 years of experience in running steam locomotives, the 1930s companies were wasting their time analysing what they had bought as fuel for their motive power because very lump is different. [And incidentally most of the town gas plants as well.] Of course you cannot analyse every lump, any more than you can test to destruction every item made in a factory - but destructive testing still takes place on a sample basis in some industries. Coal from a particular source will tend to be from one seam and the seam will have particular properties. Sample testing is then appropriate. The fact that that is now no longer practical or even possible due to the lost expertise is of course important regarding the recent incident but don't dish the expertise of those who worked with coal 90 years ago. They too could not tell the difference by looking at it and hence the need for detailed laboratory analysis. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post Tony Wright Posted June 21, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2021 9 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said: Hi Paul See the effect that Mr Wright has on trains. When he looks at a model railway it stops working properly, he has now expanded his mystical powers to causing problems with the real thing. Good morning Clive, My powers of disruption extend to beyond just looking. Because of rampant Mother Nature, I couldn't see FLYING SCOTSMAN pass on Saturday, but I could hear it and smell the smoke. That was enough! Imagine the chaos caused if I'd been able to touch it! I have to say, it 'purred' by, but it must have been already in trouble........................... I'd obviously not developed my 'powers' well enough in February, 2016.................... Her first main line run after major overhaul, surging past the school in Little Bytham, she was really making up time after morons had swarmed over the tracks further south, causing delays! Always popular on specials; Nottingham Vic' in the late-'50s. Looks to be good coal here? I wonder if any 'extreme' modeller would deliberately distress the cabside like this? And in her final 12 months of BR service; just a hint of exhaust as she drops down into Grantham at Saltersford. Please observe copyright restrictions on the two BR service shots. And there's never a problem of poor coal on the trainset! Regards, Tony. 28 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LNER4479 Posted June 21, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2021 Evening all, Further to the subject of motors and gearboxes, I had cause to go rummaging in my strategic reserves(!) and thought I would share on here. A lot of this stuff ought really to be 'junked' - some are tired old items that have previously seen service, whereas others are still in their original packings, yet to see a voltage across them. Others on here might enjoy a trip down memory lane in terms of what we once had to work with. Perhaps you have similar stashes? 21 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 Those Tri-ang XT60 motors as used in some TT locos are indestructible. My 1963 TT Boadicea still runs nice. (no TT layout though). My favourite model motor is the Canon can type used on my American O gauge diesel locos. Just sometimes the nylon gears crack on Weaver locos - a known problem due to using "un-aged" nylon. At least replacements are available & easy to fit. Brit15 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibateg Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 Is that a K's bottom right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, dibateg said: Is that a K's bottom right? Looks a bit like one, doesn't it? No immediate plans for it, but you never know ... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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