Wright writes.....

[grahame]

Did someone say wasp stripes on a industrial loco?

 

Based on an actual standard gauge locomotive livery.

 

No transfers involved on this loco!

 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

 

Is that the train equivalent of ships dazzle camouflage?

;-)

 

G.

[Headstock]

Very true, Graham,

 

Now, some real goods trains for anyone to comment on...........................

 

Freight 01.jpg

 

Taken at Grantham in 1962. Typically, cattle wagons are at the front of this fully-fitted goods. Going north, though, wouldn't they be empty?

 

Freight 02.jpg

 

Taken at Retford in 1962. Are these ex-SR vans behind this A3?

 

Freight 03.jpg

 

Another from 1962. And, don't anyone moan that they don't have the space to run prototypical-length trains! 

 

Austerity on Up freight.jpg

 

From a decade earlier, near Benningborough. I was told that any overhanging load was placed away from the loco/direction of travel. What about the fourth wagon, though? And, didn't someone say that bogie wagons were marshalled at the front of mixed goods trains? It's formation like this which I've 'copied' on LB. 

 

B16 3 on Down freight.jpg

 

Obviously barrier wagons needed here.

 

K3 on Up freight.jpg

 

Anyone care to comment on the wagons in this train?

 

V2 on Up freight.jpg

 

Or in this?

 

If nothing else, what these shots show is how much variety there was in the wagon/van stock in steam days. In most of these trains, one has to try hard to find two identical vehicles. Isn't this one of the reasons why modelling this sort of period is the most popular today? I've just looked up from typing this to see a real freight train go past. All the wagons are the same! 

 

Some comments.

 

 

Photo one

 

Horse boxes seem to fall foul of the poor quality of RTR products, only the recent Hornby SR horsebox is an accurate model, however, they represent a tiny amount of the whole and would not have been seen in large numbers across the country. Watch out for the stunted LMS horse box and the elongated MK1 horsebox.

 

Edited to add

 

I don't think that the nine foot wb LNER cattle wagon as produced by Oxford rail survived as a BR wagon.

 

Photo two

 

Not all of these vans were ex SR, BR built quite a few, hence why they became country wide.

 

Photo three

 

A nice contrast in LMS and LNER fitted vans. Note the high sides of the LMS van (RTR manufactures) and flatter roof. The LNER built more fitted stock than anybody else, for every fitted LMS wagon the LNER had three. As with many fitted LMS vans, the one in the photo has been made so by BR, hence the tie bar required with the Morton style brake. The LNER van has eight shoe clasp brakes and doesn't require a tie bar.

 

Photo four

 

Railway modelers just do not understand the general merchandise wagon, what made it different from mineral wagons and how they were employed. The RTR manufactures don't get them either, when they are rarely produced, two current manufactures are selling them as mineral wagons with private owner liveries! Conversely, specialist five plank RCH designs built for the transport such products as tarmac are often employed as general merchandise wagons on the many layouts. GM wagons were incredibly common, excluding mineral wagons, they made up three quarters of the wagon fleets of the big four. It wasn't until the 1960s that vans outnumbered GM wagons.

 

There are four different types of GM wagon behind the locomotive in the photo, then a mineral and a quint.

The likes of the quints are just not a general model railway thing, they should be. These big bogie bolsters were an LNER standard, similar types were built for the LMS and they were the progenitor of all the big BR designs. Is there any on LB?

 

Photo five

 

You could go on about tank wagons for pages, the Bachmann model is totally fictitious,unfortunately it proliferates on model railways like flies around a jam jar. I would wager that LB has them.

 

Photo six

 

The six wheeler is an LMS CCT.

 

Railway modelers don't get wagon sheeting, the majority of goods in open wagons was sheeted.

 

Photo seven

 

Sliding door vans outnumbered cupboard door vans on the East coast mainline through out the fifties. The facilities were built to deal with sliding door vans and there was a large conversion program of LMS unfitted ten foot wheelbase vans. The cupboard door design turned out to be a bit of a blind ally in the grand scheme of things.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Headstock

[Headstock]

Over the past couple of weeks I have been working hard to try and finish off the first batch of coaches for Brent, 

dThis comprises a mixture of complete metal kits from Comet for an A20 first and H26 diner, and brass sides on plastic for a full set of Centenaries 

 

Having sprayed them into GWR chocolate and cream, painted all the droplights, a weathered grey roof and a dirty underframe, I finally got round to lining them using the HMRS GWR coach lining set.  The first couple (A20 and a Centenary Third) went well, however the next two ended up like the below photo with a random shininess around elements of the line.  

 

If you run your finger over it, the transfer feels smooth (certainly it feels like it is fully touching the side).

 

I am interested to know what I have done wrong, and more importantly what I can do to fix it (and avoid a repeat when I get hold of another pack of transfers to do the next batch.

 

Definitely buying into the "Layout Coach" concept, with a few end details omitted and for the foreseeable the coach only lined on the visible side.

 

Thanks 

Rich

 

I would always advise fixing transfers to a gloss finish to avoid such problems.

[polybear]

On the other hand, this Parkside kit, a recent one, would be an excellent starter for ten

 

A2B87BE6-828D-402B-B944-B9FAF9A8F3B6.png

 

Sorry to be thick, but can you tell me which kit that is please?

Edited December 21, 2018 by polybear

[The Stationmaster]

Some times there is not a kit for the item I want so if I want it I have a go at making it. My layout is a fictitious one but I want to portray an ex L&YR station (with GNR running rights) that the LMS modernised in the early 1930s and because it was on the wrong/right side of the Pennines has ended up under Eastern Region control. The ER management has not yet decided to renew the signals and is quite happy for the old LMS "modern image " ones to remain in use.

 

No one makes LMS/Westinghouse signals from the 1930s so today I have had a bash at starting to build the GNR line inner home and the shunt signal which controls the movements between the steam loco sidings and the station.

100_5404.JPG

100_5413.JPG

The signal heads are only in place for the photos. The structure is entirely plastic microstrip and plastic card.

 

Superb sense of place created by that structure Clive, brilliantly observed and reproduced.

 

 

Very true, Graham,

 

Now, some real goods trains for anyone to comment on...........................

 

Freight 01.jpg

 

Taken at Grantham in 1962. Typically, cattle wagons are at the front of this fully-fitted goods. Going north, though, wouldn't they be empty?

 

 

If nothing else, what these shots show is how much variety there was in the wagon/van stock in steam days. In most of these trains, one has to try hard to find two identical vehicles. Isn't this one of the reasons why modelling this sort of period is the most popular today? I've just looked up from typing this to see a real freight train go past. All the wagons are the same! 

The number of stations authorised to forward or receive cattle was drastically reduced in the late 1950s, to no more than a couple of dozen nationally.  I can't remember the exact date but it was c.1958 - I do have the original list somewhere but regrettably I can't easily lay hands on it as it has gone through a couple of house moves so it's down to first find the correct box.  However cattle docks didn't vanish overnight and many remained well into the 1960s or later basically staying until they either fell to pieces or were demolished to make way for something else.  The 'something else' could sometimes still involve animals - for example the cattle dock at Reading was occasionally used to receive wagonloads of donkeys imported from Ireland via Fishguard

[Clive Mortimore]

4. Container in an open wagon.  Presumably baulks of timber are involved.

 

6. Container in a LOWFIT.  Naughty, it would be lettered that containers were prohibited.

 

Bill

Hi Bill

 

The wagon with the container in photo six is a steel body Medfit. Medfits and Highfits could carry containers without them having to be roped. See BR20427 British Railways – 4 Instructions for The Loading and Securing of Containers on Rail Vehicles on the Barrowmore groups website.

[Porcy Mane]

 

From a decade earlier, near Benningborough. I was told that any overhanging load was placed away from the loco/direction of travel. 

 

 

Benningborough?  It's a good few miles north of Beningbrough.    

 

The ECML is as straight as a 1930's schoolmistress between Thirsk and Shipton  (by Beningbrough). The black & white images were taken at Avenue Bridge, North of Thirsk.

 

P

Edited December 21, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[Barry Ten]

 

 

If you run your finger over it, the transfer feels smooth (certainly it feels like it is fully touching the side).

 

I am interested to know what I have done wrong, and more importantly what I can do to fix it (and avoid a repeat when I get hold of another pack of transfers to do the next batch.

 

 

Have you tried using any of the Micro-Sol products on your transfers? I find them very good for getting the decals to adhere.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Barry Ten

[The Fatadder]

Have you tried using any of the Micro-Sol products on your transfers? I find them very good for getting the decals to adhere.

 

Even on press fix transfers?

 

I have some Microsol and Microset, I can apply some later and see if it improves the look.  I will also apply some gloss varnish before I add any more transfers to the rest of the rake. 

[John Isherwood]

...... I was commenting on what others appear to have observed about some plastic wagon kits; the likes of Micklner for instance

 

Tony,

 

Nothing more need be said !!

 

You may take it that you have received a somewhat jaundiced assessment of the currently-available ranges of plastic wagon kits.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Barry Ten]

Even on press fix transfers?

 

I have some Microsol and Microset, I can apply some later and see if it improves the look.  I will also apply some gloss varnish before I add any more transfers to the rest of the rake. 

 

I do use it on Pressfix, yes - whether you're meant to or not is another question, but it seems to work for me.

[PMP]

Sorry to be thick, but can you tell me which kit that is please?

Hi pb it’s this one

https://peco-uk.com/products/lner-horse-box-wagon

 

The higher the catalogue number, as a rule, the more recent and better the kit.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Who just builds one Blue Spot van, though? 38 pounds is quite steep if you're considering multiple vehicles. I wouldn't

object to paying that much for a guard's van or an interesting one-off but not for a batch build. The Parkside kit is one

of their best models, in my view. I musty have built half a dozen or so and I don't even model Gresley's Wonderful Railway.

 

 

I agree Al,

 

I have 26 Parkside long-wheelbase fish vans in a train. All built/painted/weathered for me by a friend. I bought the kits and handed them over to him. 26 x 38 quid seems rather a lot to pay! 

 

The original post was about the one to go for.

I find it interesting that you have both mentioned the cost but not the quality, but not being a trickcyclist I couldn't possibly comment!

 

Mike.

[RThompson]

I love building plastic wagon kits.

Its something thats fairly basic and needs the simpliest of tools.

 

You can build them on a small tray in front of the tv or as i've done on a few occasions when i've been at work on standby, on a bus.

[65179]

Hi Bill

 

The wagon with the container in photo six is a steel body Medfit. Medfits and Highfits could carry containers without them having to be roped. See BR20427 British Railways – 4 Instructions for The Loading and Securing of Containers on Rail Vehicles on the Barrowmore groups website.

Yes, looks like a diagram 1/019. Steel equivalent of a 3 plank medfit with an LMS style fitted underframe (J hangers etc).

 

Simon

[Tony Wright]

Benningborough?  It's a good few miles north of Beningbrough.    

 

The ECML is as straight as a 1930's schoolmistress between Thirsk and Shipton  (by Beningbrough). The black & white images were taken at Avenue Bridge, North of Thirsk.

 

P

Many thanks,

 

Note to self!

 

Never believe what's written on prints.

 

I should stick to parts of the ECML I'm more familiar with.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Tony Wright]

Some comments.

 

 

Photo one

 

Horse boxes seem to fall foul of the poor quality of RTR products, only the recent Hornby SR horsebox is an accurate model, however, they represent a tiny amount of the whole and would not have been seen in large numbers across the country. Watch out for the stunted LMS horse box and the elongated MK1 horsebox.

 

Edited to add

 

I don't think that the nine foot wb LNER cattle wagon as produced by Oxford rail survived as a BR wagon.

 

Photo two

 

Not all of these vans were ex SR, BR built quite a few, hence why they became country wide.

 

Photo three

 

A nice contrast in LMS and LNER fitted vans. Note the high sides of the LMS van (RTR manufactures) and flatter roof. The LNER built more fitted stock than anybody else, for every fitted LMS wagon the LNER had three. As with many fitted LMS vans, the one in the photo has been made so by BR, hence the tie bar required with the Morton style brake. The LNER van has eight shoe clasp brakes and doesn't require a tie bar.

 

Photo four

 

Railway modelers just do not understand the general merchandise wagon, what made it different from mineral wagons and how they were employed. The RTR manufactures don't get them either, when they are rarely produced, two current manufactures are selling them as mineral wagons with private owner liveries! Conversely, specialist five plank RCH designs built for the transport such products as tarmac are often employed as general merchandise wagons on the many layouts. GM wagons were incredibly common, excluding mineral wagons, they made up three quarters of the wagon fleets of the big four. It wasn't until the 1960s that vans outnumbered GM wagons.

 

There are four different types of GM wagon behind the locomotive in the photo, then a mineral and a quint.

The likes of the quints are just not a general model railway thing, they should be. These big bogie bolsters were an LNER standard, similar types were built for the LMS and they were the progenitor of all the big BR designs. Is there any on LB?

 

Photo five

 

You could go on about tank wagons for pages, the Bachmann model is totally fictitious,unfortunately it proliferates on model railways like flies around a jam jar. I would wager that LB has them.

 

Photo six

 

The six wheeler is an LMS CCT.

 

Railway modelers don't get wagon sheeting, the majority of goods in open wagons was sheeted.

 

Photo seven

 

Sliding door vans outnumbered cupboard door vans on the East coast mainline through out the fifties. The facilities were built to deal with sliding door vans and there was a large conversion program of LMS unfitted ten foot wheelbase vans. The cupboard door design turned out to be a bit of a blind ally in the grand scheme of things.

Andrew,

 

I have one long bogie bolster wagon (which I think is Bachmann). 

 

Any tank wagons are, in the main, by Hornby, with a longer wheelbase. Are they wrong, too? 

 

There are just one or two Bachmann tankers, one lettered RONUK (but heavily-weathered). That'll be going for sale then. Why are they so wrong?

[Clive Mortimore]

Andrew,

 

I have one long bogie bolster wagon (which I think is Bachmann). 

 

Any tank wagons are, in the main, by Hornby, with a longer wheelbase. Are they wrong, too? 

 

There are just one or two Bachmann tankers, one lettered RONUK (but heavily-weathered). That'll be going for sale then. Why are they so wrong?

Hello Tony

 

I have quite a few, of various types, RCH 1923 14 ton, RCH 1911 14 ton and the 20 ton anchor mount, all Bachmann. I too wonder what is wrong. 

[Tony Wright]

The original post was about the one to go for.

I find it interesting that you have both mentioned the cost but not the quality, but not being a trickcyclist I couldn't possibly comment!

 

Mike.

But you have commented, Mike,

 

Having seen psychiatrists in the distant past (if that's what you mean?), please forgive me, but I cannot see the connection, nor with cyclists, either. Maybe I'm dim.

 

I'm sure that the quality of the product mentioned is excellent, but it's still a lot to pay. By the time the cost of couplings are factored in, then for a length of fish train the like of which I described, over £1,000.00 will have to be spent (or are my maths ropey?).

 

Is it a lot, however? This brings up an interesting thought. What's a Comet kit for an LNER carriage cost, complete? £50.00, about? In rough (but easy) figures, that's about £600.00 for a typical train length on LB. Some would say, that's a lot to pay. 

 

Is it comparing like-with-like, though? Probably not. A Comet carriage is about two and a half times the length of a long-wheelbase fish van (there, or thereabouts), so the 'vans come out considerably more. 

 

What's an equivalent Hornby fish van cost; the type with the wrong-shaped roof? 

 

I suppose it comes down to what we (as individuals) perceive as 'good value' for money. I hope I've always tried to put the case for good value, particularly with regard to loco kits. Some cannot see the connection between quality and cost. At one show last year, where I was displaying a kit-built A1, one guy asked 'How much?' I said it wasn't for sale.'How much if it were (he actually said was)?' He spluttered in astonishment at my answer, stating 'I can buy one from Bachmann for £150.00!) I suggested he did.

 

I still think a grand is still a fair bit to pay for a fish train which still has to be made, high-quality or not.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited December 21, 2018 by Tony Wright

[micklner]

Has Mick ever come across a good kit?

 

Oh yes Coopercraft as already said !!! None of the other old ones come close other than Slaters ex NER/MR . I prefer Etched Brass and Whitemetal better detail on the first and weight on the second and both much stronger too.    

Edited December 21, 2018 by micklner

[John Isherwood]

Hello Tony

 

I have quite a few, of various types, RCH 1923 14 ton, RCH 1911 14 ton and the 20 ton anchor mount, all Bachmann. I too wonder what is wrong. 

 

Mostly, they are published liveries on not-necessarily appropriate wagons.

 

For instance, how can the Bachmann anchor-mounted tank wagon be both 14T and 20T? The former had, logically, a shorter tank than the latter.

 

The only way to get your wagon stock as accurate as your locos is to devote as much research to wagons as you do to locos. My wagon reference library is huge - probably 99.9% of all that has been published on the Grouping and BR steam / early diesel era stock- and it is far more 'thumbed' and careworn than the equivalent loco or coach books.

 

If wagons don't do it for you, fine - each to their own. It's just that, to those in the know, wagon anachronisms stand out just as glaringly as inaccurate locos do to you.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[micklner]

Over the past couple of weeks I have been working hard to try and finish off the first batch of coaches for Brent, 

dThis comprises a mixture of complete metal kits from Comet for an A20 first and H26 diner, and brass sides on plastic for a full set of Centenaries 

 

Having sprayed them into GWR chocolate and cream, painted all the droplights, a weathered grey roof and a dirty underframe, I finally got round to lining them using the HMRS GWR coach lining set.  The first couple (A20 and a Centenary Third) went well, however the next two ended up like the below photo with a random shininess around elements of the line.  

 

If you run your finger over it, the transfer feels smooth (certainly it feels like it is fully touching the side).

 

I am interested to know what I have done wrong, and more importantly what I can do to fix it (and avoid a repeat when I get hold of another pack of transfers to do the next batch.

 

Definitely buying into the "Layout Coach" concept, with a few end details omitted and for the foreseeable the coach only lined on the visible side.

 

Thanks 

Rich

 

Pressfix sheets can suffer from excess glue on the outer edges of the actual decal. I had the same problem with the LNER version . I now cut with a scalpel as closely to the decals as possible whilst still on the backing sheet. The excess glue if still there can be removed with Turps on a damp only cotton bud, before varnishing. You might be lucky and still be able to remove with care.

 

Or the other possible cause is that the sheet is old and the backing glue has dried up ?, test the sheet to see if the decals are still tacky. If not I have read they can be treated as Methfix using that method or laying them. I have tried that suggestion and it never worked for me.

Edited December 21, 2018 by micklner

[Mallard60022]

My latest research, following the very interesting discussions regarding wagons and vans, has sorted almost all the problems I will/would have with wagons and vans. On my representation of the premier main line in the south west of England there was very little, if any, daylight goods workings on summer Saturdays. Weekdays there were more, but I am rarely going to play week day services and if I do then the formation of the few goods trains I can represent will be carefully researched and I must remember to not take revealing photo's of them

Unfortunately that leaves all the coaches and locomotives to be observed , oh, and track, signals, fittings, buildings and structures, figures, vehicles, terrain, animals, in fact, anything in sight. Such fun.   

Phil

[Headstock]

Andrew,

 

I have one long bogie bolster wagon (which I think is Bachmann). 

 

Any tank wagons are, in the main, by Hornby, with a longer wheelbase. Are they wrong, too? 

 

There are just one or two Bachmann tankers, one lettered RONUK (but heavily-weathered). That'll be going for sale then. Why are they so wrong?

 

The Bachmann model is a GWR design of a medium sized bogie bolster that formed the basis of the BR bolster C. It has appeared in many spurious guises over the years, BR, LMS etc. It is only really suitable as a GWR type as it has the rather prominent Dean Churchward brake handle between the queen posts, thought the rest of the brake gear is missing, just empty V hangers. It can be modified into a BR C with replacement brake gear and handles amongst other parts. The LNER Quint is a much larger bogie bolster all round, a proper big heavy metal carrier. It formed the basis of all the big BR bogie bolsters that followed it, allowing Cambrian to produce a whole family of kits around the basic underframes.

 

conversion kits for th GWR Macaw B and BR bolster C, bottom of page.

http://website.rumneymodels.co.uk/bogie-steel-wagon-kits

 

The Bachmann tank has issues with the tank and the chassis is an amalgamation of different features not necessarily seen in one wagon. In particular, the longitudinal tank support, as opposed to cross supports for the tank is not typical of the type of wagon it sometimes purports to be. Livery is a whole other can of worms.

 

Oxford rail have announced a new tank wagon that will probably better fit the RCH specification. However, after their cock ups with the LNER cattle wagon and LNER 6 plank GM wagon, who knows what could happen. David gean produces a better RCH tank and Cambrian do a better underframe to sit your Bachmann tank bodies on.

 

Oh yes Coopercraft as already said !!! None of the other old ones come close other than Slaters ex NER/MR . I prefer Etched Brass and Whitemetal better detail on the first and weight on the second and both much stronger too.    

 

Just kidding Mick.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Headstock

[Bucoops]

But you have commented, Mike,

 

Having seen psychiatrists in the distant past (if that's what you mean?), please forgive me, but I cannot see the connection, nor with cyclists, either. Maybe I'm dim.

 

I'm sure that the quality of the product mentioned is excellent, but it's still a lot to pay. By the time the cost of couplings are factored in, then for a length of fish train the like of which I described, over £1,000.00 will have to be spent (or are my maths ropey?).

 

Is it a lot, however? This brings up an interesting thought. What's a Comet kit for an LNER carriage cost, complete? £50.00, about? In rough (but easy) figures, that's about £600.00 for a typical train length on LB. Some would say, that's a lot to pay. 

 

Is it comparing like-with-like, though? Probably not. A Comet carriage is about two and a half times the length of a long-wheelbase fish van (there, or thereabouts), so the 'vans come out considerably more. 

 

What's an equivalent Hornby fish van cost; the type with the wrong-shaped roof? 

 

I suppose it comes down to what we (as individuals) perceive as 'good value' for money. I hope I've always tried to put the case for good value, particularly with regard to loco kits. Some cannot see the connection between quality and cost. At one show last year, where I was displaying a kit-built A1, one guy asked 'How much?' I said it wasn't for sale.'How much if it were (he actually said was)?' He spluttered in astonishment at my answer, stating 'I can buy one from Bachmann for £150.00!) I suggested he did.

 

I still think a grand is still a fair bit to pay for a fish train which still has to be made, high-quality or not.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I wonder if you were to go to the supplier and say how many you wanted in one go a bulk discount might be possible. But then to buy an entire scale length train of kits in one go, healthy discount or not would still be a lot in one go.

 

Comet coach kits seem to be very good value - an RDEB LNER basic kit (so minus roof, underframe parts, any castings, bogies etc. is £36. MJT parts added up to be a kit are around £80 by my reckoning.