Wright writes.....

[thegreenhowards]

Interesting work, Andy,

 

My compliments.

 

Are you going to line it? I'm sure it should be lined at the waist in BR maroon.

 

One further question. None of the various kitchen cars I've built had door handles on the outside (to prevent members of the public inadvertently entering the kitchens). They could only be opened from the outside by the guard's key. Was this RK different?

 

Edited to include one further question. It's my understanding that angle trussing was not used in LNER coach construction until the early-'30s. I assume the original turnbuckle trussing was replaced in the rebuilding? 

 

Tony,

 

Thanks for your comments and questions.

 

Lining is an interesting question which has taxed me during the build. I have based my model on a 1957 photograph which I can't reproduce for copyright reasons, but which appears in several places - plate 68 in Great Northern Railway and East Joint Stock Carriages by Harris, Backtrack Vol 10 Number 11 p602 (The Clive Carter article on LNER Kitchen Cars) and in another Backtrack article by David Jenkinson on the history of the 12 wheel coach which I can't find right now. It has been cropped differently in each case, but I think it's the same base photo. This appears to show the coach in maroon with no lining, but I have had an exchange with Jonathon Wealleans about this (on my workbench thread) and he thinks it may be faintly lined, but I can't see that. I am now wondering whether it's possible that the coach is in coach brown rather than maroon and that explains the lack of lining. In any event, I made the decision when painting that it wasn't lined and decided to replicate that, but if anyone can find another photo which shows it lined, then I will try to add lining.

 

The photos above seem to show outside door handles so that's what I've replicated. There are also photos on Steve Banks website at the bottom of this article which show the door handles. https://steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/266-lner-restaurant-cars

 

It originally had the fishbelly underframe like the royal train vehicles at Bressingham (plate 127 in the Harris book above). This was replaced on rebuilding in the 1930's.

 

It's been fun researching this fascinating vehicle, and while I'm not sure I've got everything right, it is something different to run. I now need to find a realistic formation for it to run in. I suspect a relief or excursion with mainly TKs or TTOs would be appropriate.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Clive Mortimore]

Having had the privilege to have known Guy in the 90's and visited his home, what struck me was how basic his workshop was. Sure, he had a unimat for tirning fittings etc, but in the main his wonderful models were created using the kind of tools any modeller would have.

Not this one at the age of 14. No soldering iron. What were tin snips? No vice. No rolling bars. As I have said my dad had a hand drill, you know the cheap one that Woolies use to sell. His book might have been very useful to others but it was very daunting to me at the time.

 

I still have no lathe, I can do turning as I was taught as an apprentice. I have some snips and a vice. Still no rolling bars. I too have a cheep hand drill, quite useful when drilling coupling rods and frames.

 

The Barclay 204hp 0-6-0 is scratch built, brass frames, hand cut coupling rods. Drilled using my cheap hand drill once a mate told me in simple terms that if you sweat solder the frames and coupling rods together and drill the holes the size of the crank pin through your soldered up lump every thing will line up when you desolder and build up the frames. For this loco I used some alignment rods.

[queensquare]

Not this one at the age of 14. No soldering iron. What were tin snips? No vice. No rolling bars. As I have said my dad had a hand drill, you know the cheap one that Woolies use to sell. His book might have been very useful to others but it was very daunting to me at the time.

 

I still have no lathe, I can do turning as I was taught as an apprentice. I have some snips and a vice. Still no rolling bars. I too have a cheep hand drill, quite useful when drilling coupling rods and frames.

 

s004.jpg

The Barclay 204hp 0-6-0 is scratch built, brass frames, hand cut coupling rods. Drilled using my cheap hand drill once a mate told me in simple terms that if you sweat solder the frames and coupling rods together and drill the holes the size of the crank pin through your soldered up lump every thing will line up when you desolder and build up the frames. For this loco I used some alignment rods.

Sorry but to dismiss the book  just because you didn't have a basic tool kit at age 14 is just nonsense

 

Jerry.

Edited September 6, 2018 by queensquare

[Headstock]

Tony,

 

Thanks for your comments and questions.

 

Lining is an interesting question which has taxed me during the build. I have based my model on a 1957 photograph which I can't reproduce for copyright reasons, but which appears in several places - plate 68 in Great Northern Railway and East Joint Stock Carriages by Harris, Backtrack Vol 10 Number 11 p602 (The Clive Carter article on LNER Kitchen Cars) and in another Backtrack article by David Jenkinson on the history of the 12 wheel coach which I can't find right now. It has been cropped differently in each case, but I think it's the same base photo. This appears to show the coach in maroon with no lining, but I have had an exchange with Jonathon Wealleans about this (on my workbench thread) and he thinks it may be faintly lined, but I can't see that. I am now wondering whether it's possible that the coach is in coach brown rather than maroon and that explains the lack of lining. In any event, I made the decision when painting that it wasn't lined and decided to replicate that, but if anyone can find another photo which shows it lined, then I will try to add lining.

 

The photos above seem to show outside door handles so that's what I've replicated. There are also photos on Steve Banks website at the bottom of this article which show the door handles. https://steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/266-lner-restaurant-cars

 

It originally had the fishbelly underframe like the royal train vehicles at Bressingham (plate 127 in the Harris book above). This was replaced on rebuilding in the 1930's.

 

It's been fun researching this fascinating vehicle, and while I'm not sure I've got everything right, it is something different to run. I now need to find a realistic formation for it to run in. I suspect a relief or excursion with mainly TKs or TTOs would be appropriate.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Good day Andy,

 

rather strange angle iron on that Kitchen car, it's inverted as in the style used on some GW carriages. I noticed that you have captured this in your model.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Headstock

[Clive Mortimore]

Sorry but to dismiss the book  just because you didn't have a basic tool kit at age 14 is just nonsense

 

Jerry.

I found it very overwhelming. But at 14 not all of us were super modellers. 

[Clive Mortimore]

It seems my inability to get my head round the Guy Williams books is upsetting some of you.

 

I think I will go back to making plastic diesel and electric locos and units elsewhere.

[Steamport Southport]

Sorry but to dismiss the book  just because you didn't have a basic tool kit at age 14 is just nonsense

 

Jerry.

 

It probably depends on when you grew up. Almost everyone aged under the age of about fifty wouldn't have a background in engineering or metalwork as we weren't taught it at school. Most of the factories had closed so there wasn't any apprenticeships either.

 

Most of the people my age probably think a lathe is a type of coffee.

 

 

I've got these books myself and they are definitely in the style of "take one lathe", "Use your milling machine to cut the chassis", etc.

 

 

All very well having the tools if you know how to use them. Many of us can't use them as we've never been taught. Are the books old fashioned? Probably to people my age they are as we probably wouldn't do things that way.

 

 

 

Jason

[t-b-g]

I have a couple of good friends who mill, turn and drill almost everything on their selection of machine tools. I have a lathe, a pillar drill and a milling machine. The pillar drill gets used all the time, the others once in a blue moon and only when I have really run out of hand tool options.

 

Today I made a set of slide bars by taking some 1mm square metal and filing it down to size and shape.

 

My education in such things? Entirely trial and error self taught from reading about how others did it.

 

My inspiration to try such things? Articles and books by people who were far better at it than I was at the time and probably am now.

 

There are very few jobs, if any, that can't be done with simple hand tools, or perhaps a hand held electric drill. A pillar drill gives you more accuracy and less drill breakage but I managed for 30 years without one.

 

Modelling in plastic is an art form in itself, requiring a slightly different set of skills but can produce results equally as good as any metalworker. I just need to say "Geoff Kent" and rest my case!

 

I don't do everything the Guy Williams way, or do everything the way any modeller did but I pick the bits of technique from each modeller who has written about the subject that I think fit with how I would like to do things.

 

It is a constant learning process where most of the learning is by having a go, being prepared to get it wrong sometimes and to learn why for the next time.   

[Bucoops]

It seems my inability to get my head round the Guy Williams books is upsetting some of you.

 

I think I will go back to making plastic diesel and electric locos and units elsewhere.

 

You're going nowhere please

[petrovich]

You're going nowhere please

 

 

Same from me.....

[Lecorbusier]

Not this one at the age of 14. No soldering iron. What were tin snips? No vice. No rolling bars. As I have said my dad had a hand drill, you know the cheap one that Woolies use to sell. His book might have been very useful to others but it was very daunting to me at the time.

 

I still have no lathe, I can do turning as I was taught as an apprentice. I have some snips and a vice. Still no rolling bars. I too have a cheep hand drill, quite useful when drilling coupling rods and frames.

 

s004.jpg

The Barclay 204hp 0-6-0 is scratch built, brass frames, hand cut coupling rods. Drilled using my cheap hand drill once a mate told me in simple terms that if you sweat solder the frames and coupling rods together and drill the holes the size of the crank pin through your soldered up lump every thing will line up when you desolder and build up the frames. For this loco I used some alignment rods.

Wow! ... 

 

I've always liked what you show - but even more impressed now. For some reason I had just assumed lathe, pillar drill, rolling bars, a history of metalwork,  etc etc .. et al. Inspirational given what you produce.

 

I have to admit to a sneaking desire to have a go with a lathe but everything at the moment on my modelling is very much kitchen work top - I have bought a cheapish stand for my dremel which gives me the ability to use it in a more controlled manner, but otherwise its files hand drills, coping saw etc.

 

I love the fact that as a result of the kits on offer and the various after market chimneys/domes not to mention wheels it is possible to have a bash and achieve encouraging results .... but this is not scratch building.

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

Thanks for your comments and questions.

 

Lining is an interesting question which has taxed me during the build. I have based my model on a 1957 photograph which I can't reproduce for copyright reasons, but which appears in several places - plate 68 in Great Northern Railway and East Joint Stock Carriages by Harris, Backtrack Vol 10 Number 11 p602 (The Clive Carter article on LNER Kitchen Cars) and in another Backtrack article by David Jenkinson on the history of the 12 wheel coach which I can't find right now. It has been cropped differently in each case, but I think it's the same base photo. This appears to show the coach in maroon with no lining, but I have had an exchange with Jonathon Wealleans about this (on my workbench thread) and he thinks it may be faintly lined, but I can't see that. I am now wondering whether it's possible that the coach is in coach brown rather than maroon and that explains the lack of lining. In any event, I made the decision when painting that it wasn't lined and decided to replicate that, but if anyone can find another photo which shows it lined, then I will try to add lining.

 

The photos above seem to show outside door handles so that's what I've replicated. There are also photos on Steve Banks website at the bottom of this article which show the door handles. https://steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/266-lner-restaurant-cars

 

It originally had the fishbelly underframe like the royal train vehicles at Bressingham (plate 127 in the Harris book above). This was replaced on rebuilding in the 1930's.

 

It's been fun researching this fascinating vehicle, and while I'm not sure I've got everything right, it is something different to run. I now need to find a realistic formation for it to run in. I suspect a relief or excursion with mainly TKs or TTOs would be appropriate.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Thanks for that, Andy,

 

I'm sure it would have been lined in BR maroon days.

 

How interesting that the kitchen doors have exterior handles. Do you see what I mean from the other pictures in the SB article how the kitchen doors didn't have exterior handles? 

 

Great stuff; keep it up.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Lecorbusier]

Tony,

 

Could I ask a question about your track work. What are the specifics of the gauge standards used for its laying? I know in 00 there are a few different standards. I have always understood that there are running issues or re gauging of wheels implications dependent on which standards you choose.

 

It would appear that on Little Bytham you can use RTR successfully straight from the box, and equally you can run both Romford Markits fine scale wheels and Gibson 00 wheels with absolute reliability. This suggests that you the track is laid to 00-SF, but I recall you have described it in terms of 00 fine? It would be interesting to have clarification.

[Tony Wright]

As always, some most-interesting comments about the relevance of older books/articles to today's modellers, and also comments on tools. My thanks for posting them

 

I have the books mentioned, and found them, in all honesty, of little use to me, apart from John Ahern's approach to making chassis. I say of 'little use', not because I'm, nor ever have been, a 'master model-maker', but because the majority of methods and techniques employed implied, at least in part, access to a metal 'machine shop' of some kind. In my formative years, this was in the stratosphere as far as I was concerned. Ironically, as a teacher, I then had access to a complete metalworkshop, including lathes, milling machines (both vertical and horizontal) and pillar drills, all of the highest quality. By then, I'd arrived at my 'own' solutions for scratch-building. In the case of a chassis; sweat two pieces of one sixteenth brass together, mill a datum edge dead true, paint in engineers' blue, mark off the centre line for axles from the datum, dot punch for first axle, take spring dividers and mark positions for other axles (at the same time, all these axle spacings were being applied to a pair of rails soldered together to make the coupling rods), dot punch the other axles (the centre one being slightly higher), drill with a centre drill in the pillar drill, then drill to just a tiny bit below one eighth (drilling rods at the same time, not, of course, one eighth). Shape the frames as necessary; cut-outs for bogie wheels, etc - I used to do this before drilling, but, after knackering up the process of drilling, what a waste of time to do it beforehand. Separate the frames (big soldering iron and scalpel blade) and separate the rods. Take the made-up spacers, cut from brass stock, drilled and tapped, jig-up the frames (Jamieson jig) and solder everything together. That done, pass one eight taper reamer through the axle holes in the frames (no bearings - no need!). Then, check the wheels rotate freely, checking that rods match. Then add oilboxes to the rods (taken from Jamieson frets). Paint frames, install pick-ups, motor (straight worm/gear in those days) then rods. What I'd done is create a Jamieson facsimile. I still have about 30 locos with frames made in this way, though most now have modern motor/gearboxes in them now. 

 

Where I think the older books have less relevance today (and I'm speaking personally, of course) is in the light of what's now available from the trade. I haven't scratch-built a chassis for donkeys' years (actually, that's a lie, because I did the frames for a Sacre 2-4-0T for a friend last year) because so many excellent etched kits are out there. The same with bodies. Motors/gearboxes, too, are light years beyond the Zeniths, Phantoms, Bulldogs and XO4s of yore. 

 

Not only that, how many folk need to know how to turn chimneys, domes and all other fittings these days? Or, how to make their own valve gear. Even fewer (and getting fewer and fewer) now bother to make anything it would seem to me. Most locos come from distant factories these days, ready-made. 

[Denbridge]

It probably depends on when you grew up. Almost everyone aged under the age of about fifty wouldn't have a background in engineering or metalwork as we weren't taught it at school. Most of the factories had closed so there wasn't any apprenticeships either.

 

Most of the people my age probably think a lathe is a type of coffee.

 

 

I've got these books myself and they are definitely in the style of "take one lathe", "Use your milling machine to cut the chassis", etc.

 

 

All very well having the tools if you know how to use them. Many of us can't use them as we've never been taught. Are the books old fashioned? Probably to people my age they are as we probably wouldn't do things that way.

 

 

 

Jason

i also have the 3 books by Guy and they are certainly NOT written as you describe. Quite the opposite in fact. Guy was a school teacher, latterly a headmaster and his books were written in an easy to read, informative style. I learnt more from them than any other source on loco building.

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

Could I ask a question about your track work. What are the specifics of the gauge standards used for its laying? I know in 00 there are a few different standards. I have always understood that there are running issues or re gauging of wheels implications dependent on which standards you choose.

 

It would appear that on Little Bytham you can use RTR successfully straight from the box, and equally you can run both Romford Markits fine scale wheels and Gibson 00 wheels with absolute reliability. This suggests that you the track is laid to 00-SF, but I recall you have described it in terms of 00 fine? It would be interesting to have clarification.

Tim,

 

I'll do my best...................

 

Norman Solomon made and laid the scenic-side trackwork using C&L components for points/crossings and SMP plain trackwork. He used jigs and gauges and the crossings were made to (what I believe) the old BRMSB 'finescale' standards. That's with a b-t-b of 14.5mm.  

 

Standard and RP25 Romford/Markits/Jackson wheels run perfectly through this, though, to a lesser extent, Gibson rolling stock wheels. The Gibson wheels have a finer flange and narrower tread, though they can work. Where they 'fail' is not so much due to flange depth or wheel treads, but in going out of gauge, tyres coming off and their being eccentric. I'm told this isn't the case now, but my views are born of experience in the past. The Gibson wheels are far less happy running over the Peco track in the fiddle yard, anyway. As for friction-fit drivers of any kind - no thanks!

 

RTR? Since I change all carrying wheels and rolling stock wheels to Romford/Markits/Jackson, I cannot comment on how well (or badly) the RTR wheels run, except, once more, my prejudice against them is born of past experience. Very often, RTR loco driving wheels have had the b-t-bs increased, because they're too tight at source.

 

I hope the above helps,

 

Regards,

 

Tony.  

[Lecorbusier]

I think the advent of etching now coupled to CAD is a game changer. So too is the advent of 3d printing. It seems to me that if you have a basic knowledge now of CAD it is possible to design your own etches and print your own fittings such that Kitchen table modelling will allow a considerable degree of finesse without recourse to many of the machine shop tools?

[Atso]

I have two of Guy's books and, while I don't employ many (if any!) of the techniques he describes, I've found then to be a fascinating read and a real source of inspiration. Am I likely to ever build a locomotive of the quality shown in the book and using the methods described, not likely but it does show, with a bit of thought and determination, most problems in construction can be overcome.

 

My own copy of Model Locomotive Construction in 4mm Scale was lost for many years. I lent it to a young boy who played tennis at the centre I worked at as he was really into model railways and was a junior volunteer at Didcot. Unfortunately, he then stopped playing and I never saw him again. About ten years later, I was browsing through a second hand bookshop and found my old copy of the book (complete with its damaged/marked book cover) and purchased it for the second time for the princely sum of £5! It pleased me greatly to be able to have my original copy back in my possession again.

[Killybegs]

I am definitely curious to have a read now ..... luckily I have Tony's videos and some successful (in my eyes) kits under my belt, so it definitely won't deter me from making models. From a brief skim I thought it might give some pointers for a little off piste detailing to personalise future kits. 

 

Guy had a later book, 'The 4mm Engine a scratchbuilder's guide', published by Wild Swan in 1988. I have found this more useful than the earlier book (which I also have).

[gr.king]

I've read the Guy Williams books and found them very interesting. I've seen the way that some builders "engineer" every tiny part of their models too, using a machine shop which must have costs thousands of pounds, at least. Very nice, and if they wish to do things that way, good luck to them. I still stick to doing as much as I can using a collection of hand tools built up over time, a motley collection some might say, some of them (basic Stanley knife in particular) far more crude than the "recommended" item, some of them home-improvised. Working with care, using tried techniques, and thinking about it as I go seems to get results. An electric drill, clamped in a vice or Workmate, at my own risk (don't emulate unless you are sure of what you are doing and equally happy to accept risk) provides me with a means of doing occasional bits of free-hand turning.

 

If some modellers have found highly respected texts on loco or rolling stock construction difficult to follow, or overwhelming, I suggest they put those texts out of their mind and have a go at something anyway. As skills and the inevitable catalogue of errors develop, the urge to look at those texts may re-appear, and with the benefit of experience they may be more comprehensible, less worrying, more useful, or even on occasions amusing - especially if you realise that you know a simpler and better way to do the job.

[thegreenhowards]

Good day Andy,

 

rather strange angle iron on that Kitchen car, it's inverted as in the style used on some GW carriages. I noticed that you have captured this in your model.

Yes. I’d forgotten I’d done that - it was several weeks ago! I just put the standard MJT angle iron inside out. That seems to capture it.

[queensquare]

 

Where I think the older books have less relevance today (and I'm speaking personally, of course) is in the light of what's now available from the trade. I haven't scratch-built a chassis for donkeys' years (actually, that's a lie, because I did the frames for a Sacre 2-4-0T for a friend last year) because so many excellent etched kits are out there. The same with bodies. Motors/gearboxes, too, are light years beyond the Zeniths, Phantoms, Bulldogs and XO4s of yore. 

 

Not only that, how many folk need to know how to turn chimneys, domes and all other fittings these days? Or, how to make their own valve gear. Even fewer (and getting fewer and fewer) now bother to make anything it would seem to me. Most locos come from distant factories these days, ready-made. 

 

If you work in scales other than 4mm and 7mm these skills are still very much relevant.

 

Jerry

[Clive Mortimore]

I've read the Guy Williams books and found them very interesting. I've seen the way that some builders "engineer" every tiny part of their models too, using a machine shop which must have costs thousands of pounds, at least. Very nice, and if they wish to do things that way, good luck to them. I still stick to doing as much as I can using a collection of hand tools built up over time, a motley collection some might say, some of them (basic Stanley knife in particular) far more crude than the "recommended" item, some of them home-improvised. Working with care, using tried techniques, and thinking about it as I go seems to get results. An electric drill, clamped in a vice or Workmate, at my own risk (don't emulate unless you are sure of what you are doing and equally happy to accept risk) provides me with a means of doing occasional bits of free-hand turning.

 

If some modellers have found highly respected texts on loco or rolling stock construction difficult to follow, or overwhelming, I suggest they put those texts out of their mind and have a go at something anyway. As skills and the inevitable catalogue of errors develop, the urge to look at those texts may re-appear, and with the benefit of experience they may be more comprehensible, less worrying, more useful, or even on occasions amusing - especially if you realise that you know a simpler and better way to do the job.

I did.

[John Isherwood]

 

Not only that, how many folk need to know how to turn chimneys, domes and all other fittings these days?

 

Well - unless you're using an RTR body - increasingly you do.

 

There was a time, not too long ago, when excellent turned brass chimneys and domes could be had, but sources for these are rapidly drying up.

 

Cast whitemetal and lost wax brass items are available for a fair selection of locos, but they never  - for me at least - have the 'crispness' of a turned brass item.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[LNER4479]

I certainly found the Guy Williams book very inspirational. I was lent it by my mentor (Peter Sykes, of the Manchester MRC), an experienced scratchbuilder who had a lathe and a pillar drill. I must have been 18 or 19 at the time and just contemplating my first forays into kit or scratchbuilding.

 

A few years later I built this:

 

She entered service in 1987 and, other than a replacement motor / gearbox (the Anchoridge D13 gave up the ghost), continues to give faithful service as a 'layout loco' to this day. She was built without the use of a lathe or a pillar drill. A 12v hand held mini drill was all that was acquired specially.

 

30 years on, I still don't have a lathe and a pillar drill. Meanwhile, the 12v hand held drill is still giving sterling service. I guess we're all inspired by different things and figure our own individual ways of doing things we like doing.

Edited September 7, 2018 by LNER4479