Wright writes.....

[Chamby]

Geoffrey Chaucer and William Shakefpeare wouldn’t recognise what we now refer to as ‘Queen’s English’. Language constantly evolves, both locally and nationally. The modern advocacy of tolerance, diversity and inclusion, contemporaneous with the rapid change in communications technology, is accelerating this rate of change. Witness the development of text-speak, and the impact of Australian soap operas on how we speak in the UK, resulting in a greater prevalence of rising, rather than falling tone at the end of a sentence.

 

My railway modelling is fixed at a point in time some seventy years ago, it is modelling a point in history. Today’s railway has changed almost beyond recognition.

 

OMG, language is no different.

[Manxcat]

Now, and this is the interesting bit, at least to me. Other than my (snobbish) tendency to use 'big' words from time to time, nobody has ever complained that they cannot understand me. Yet, at this year's Glasgow Show, all I could do in response to a few questions was nod, or shake my head, or utter 'yes' or 'no' as I thought appropriate. The questions were incomprehensible to me, because of the strong accents.

 

Tony, perhaps at Model Rail Scotland 2019 I could sit beside you for an hour or two and act as an interpreter!

 

My pet hate is the insidious use of the phrase "should of" when the writer actually means "should have" or "should've". Until a year ago I had only ever seen that phrase in writing. I had never heard it actually used in speech. That may be down to the fact that if one says "should of" quite quickly then it can indeed sound like "should've". The person I was speaking to actually said "I should of known....." and when he uttered those words they came out exactly as he would have written them. Sometimes I despair.

 

More power to your elbow Tony or, as they would say in Glasgow "Gaun yersel Tony boy".

[TrevorP1]

“Can I get?” instead of “May I have?” Aghhhh! As for ‘train station ‘....

[MJI]

I have a strongish Gloucestershire acent despite living in Worcestershire for nearly 30 years.

 

I dislike regional accents when

 

1) I cannot understand

2) They change vowels a or o to i or similar

3) Dropped Rs

 

Being understood is the most important thing.

 

As to music the type I like tends to be played by well spoken intelligent individuals. And what is funny is that it is a music form based around guitar virtuosity, and gets a lot of flak. Also some of the musicians have other jobs such as pilots.

[Bob-65b]

This is rapidly turning into a Monty Python sketch or in the case of the comments about Glaswegian's a scene from Friday night at the Glasgow Metropole circa 1954. I'm sure none of those commenting would have a problem understanding any version of Scots or English with whatever the "regional" dialect when being offered money or a drink for that matter.  Thank goodness we are all different!

Edited June 29, 2018 by Bob Reid

[Jol Wilkinson]

 As for ‘train station ‘....

People go to a bus station or bus stop to catch a bus. So why not a train station to catch a train (although I too abhor the phrase)?

[robertcwp]

 

 

As to music the type I like tends to be played by well spoken intelligent individuals. And what is funny is that it is a music form based around guitar virtuosity, and gets a lot of flak. Also some of the musicians have other jobs such as pilots.

Some of whom are also railway enthusiasts, such as one Bruce Dickinson.

[Northmoor]

Some of whom are also railway enthusiasts, such as one Bruce Dickinson.

Eric Clapton and of course Rod Stewart............

 

I believe more than one band member from Blur is a bit of an enthusiast.  It can't be a coincidence that one of their first gigs was at Chappell and Wakes Colne Goods Shed AND one of the venues for their tour of smaller venues about 20 years later.  I'm sure I've seen photos of Damon Albarn on an enthusiast's special train as well.

[Tony Wright]

You turned of your telly?

 

Whoops!

 

I agree very much with what you say but I just couldn't resist.

 

Modern music is another area which should lead to broadcasting bans. Any recording that has "whityou" all as one word, instead of "with you" should be searched out and destroyed. Likewise any recording in a fake "estuary English" so strong that I can only understand about every third word. Or all the words are run into one. Or has a handful lyrics that are just repeated throughout the song. That covers most modern music, barring a couple of exceptions. Mind you there are enough guilty older songs to prove that it is not necessarily a modern problem!

 

I heard an interview with a singer on the radio a while ago. The interviewer praised her on how clearly she pronounced her words when she sang. Her answer was that her dad had taught her that if you had something to say in a song, you should at least give the listener an opportunity to hear it properly.

 

Tony (with tongue firmly in cheek).

Thanks Tony,

 

Fancy my missing an 'f'. I'll leave it, if only to illustrate my hypocrisy. 

 

Thanks to all for the responses to my post about accents. Despite different points of view (wonderful), I remain adamant that not pronouncing all the letters in words (except where they're silent) is sloppy. That has nothing to do with accent in my view, it's lazy. If I'm prejudiced against lazy speech, then I'm happy to be so. Surely someone with a Middlesbrough accent can say 'getting', without it becoming 'gerrin''. The point about correct annunciation/pronunciation is that it usually takes time - correctly spoken words don't have short-cuts, unless they're grammatically-correct, such as can't, won't, they're and so on. 

 

And, why would anyone wish to change their accent according to the company they're keeping? 

 

Anyway, enough of 'correct' speech.  

 

This afternoon five good friends from the Ivanhoe Club came to visit and run trains. The trains ran really well; I didn't. When I hear the phrase 'There's nothing like preparation', I remind myself that, at times, the setting up before a visit to LB is 'Nothing like preparation'. Yesterday, I changed a few locos. Did I check that all their wheels were on the road? Of course not. Thus, when a loco immediately derailed further, or struggled to move, my lack of preparation was cruelly-highlighted. However, once sorted, the running proved great fun.

 

Thank you chaps for a splendid afternoon/evening, and thanks for your most-generous contributions to CR. 

[Headstock]

 

     Now, I am rather hypocritical here- I myself have deliberately schooled myself into speaking with a generic Southern accent, however, I have my own personal reasons for this and I don't wish to disclose them here. Obviously my accent changes depending on who I am around- when I visit home I eventually shrug off the plummy, silver-spoon silliness and revert to a middle-ground of Southern pronunciation with a Yorkshire twang. I never forget where I come from, and I'm happy to retain some Northern pronunciation and a lilt, it's what makes my language my own.

 

Are you a secret agent? If so, indicate a positive by leaving a lit candle on top of the water barrel behind the red barn.

[St Enodoc]

Interesting, Gavin,

 

May I make certain observations from my own experiences, please?

 

I have been told I don't have an 'identifiable' accent. By that I mean nobody seems to know exactly where I originate on first meeting them, though a few have suggested 'down South, but posh'. Since I originate from the North, then they're quite wrong. 

 

I admit to being a bit snobbish about my speech, and pride myself in not having picked-up any West Midlands' dialect or accent, despite having lived there for over 30 years. 

 

Now, and this is the interesting bit, at least to me. Other than my (snobbish) tendency to use 'big' words from time to time, nobody has ever complained that they cannot understand me. Yet, at this year's Glasgow Show, all I could do in response to a few questions was nod, or shake my head, or utter 'yes' or 'no' as I thought appropriate. The questions were incomprehensible to me, because of the strong accents. I've found the same in the N. East, in deepest Somerset, Essex and in Ireland; in fact, all points of the compass. Take these speakers away from their native heath, and they're impossible to understand. Yet, when I have managed to sort out a question, I seem to be perfectly-understood in my answer (or, at least, I think so). 

 

Do I speak the 'Queen's English'? I hope so, and if so, the likes of myself (with no strong accent) can be understood, anywhere where English is spoken; can't I (we?). 

 

This is where I take issue with the current craze for having presenters with really strong, regional accents. Take the BBC for instance; though I can understand (in the main) what these English-manglers are trying to convey, their speech is incredibly sloppy in my view. 'T's in the middle of words disappear, as to consonants at the end. One awful speaker (originating from Middlesbrough, I think) made me turn of the telly faster than ever because she said 'It's lovely weather for 'gerrin' out in the sun'. I winced. In any speech form, that surely can't be right; can it? 

 

I had the misfortune to switch Radio 2 on one Sunday morning, to hear some woman vicar saying 'I'm sat 'here', in a strong Mancunian accent. Shouldn't the Almighty help her? I nearly wrecked the radio in my zeal to turn it off when she then said she'd just come from the 'Train Station'. 

 

Please, bring back Sylvia Peters. Here like is sadly missed. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

If someone speaks in properly-constructed sentences, with tones, inflections and pauses that are consistent with the punctuation, then I find I can understand them irrespective of their accent in most cases. Dialects are slightly harder, either when (to me) uncommon words or, as we have already discussed, words that have different meanings in different places are used. I would be sad to see regional variations disappear though.

 

Having said that, three anecdotes if I may.

 

As a Londoner by birth and upbringing, going to work in Glasgow was quite a change. For the first three months or so, though, I couldn't understand anyone there and they couldn't understand me - so to avoid embarrassment we just nodded and agreed with each other.

 

In similar vein, some people in Scotland thought that I spoke with an Australian accent, which given where I now live is quite ironic.

 

Finally, my Singaporean partner's young cousin once complained that he couldn't understand my accent. I replied that I hadn't got an accent as I was English - everyone else had an accent.

[Barry O]

I must have missed the day they handed out the Grammar School Accent!

 

If I talk to some of my long time friends from "home", her indoors cannot understand what I am saying, partly due to my accent, but also due to the speed of delivery.

 

Having been away from the County Palatine for many years I can no longer "pick" the accent for people from villages around my own. Pit Yacker is not a "Geordie Accent" but is confined to people who live in the coastal villages built around the (now closed) Durham deep coal mines.

 

The loss of such accents is sad to me as it just erodes a part of our history and our "identity" as part of the great lingual mix of being British.

Baz

 

PS some of the "put on" accents remind me of an old saying about people trying to something they are not "She is aall fur coat and nee knickers"

[Enterprisingwestern]

Thanks Tony,

 

Fancy my missing an 'f'. I'll leave it, if only to illustrate my hypocrisy. 

 

Thanks to all for the responses to my post about accents. Despite different points of view (wonderful), I remain adamant that not pronouncing all the letters in words (except where they're silent) is sloppy. That has nothing to do with accent in my view, it's lazy. If I'm prejudiced against lazy speech, then I'm happy to be so. Surely someone with a Middlesbrough accent can say 'getting', without it becoming 'gerrin''. The point about correct annunciation/pronunciation is that it usually takes time - correctly spoken words don't have short-cuts, unless they're grammatically-correct, such as can't, won't, they're and so on. 

 

And, why would anyone wish to change their accent according to the company they're keeping? 

 

Anyway, enough of 'correct' speech.  

 

This afternoon five good friends from the Ivanhoe Club came to visit and run trains. The trains ran really well; I didn't. When I hear the phrase 'There's nothing like preparation', I remind myself that, at times, the setting up before a visit to LB is 'Nothing like preparation'. Yesterday, I changed a few locos. Did I check that all their wheels were on the road? Of course not. Thus, when a loco immediately derailed further, or struggled to move, my lack of preparation was cruelly-highlighted. However, once sorted, the running proved great fun.

 

Thank you chaps for a splendid afternoon/evening, and thanks for your most-generous contributions to CR. 

 

Shld y wsh t shrtn wrds, lvng vwls ff s sppsdly th crrct wy.

 

Mk.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Enterprisingwestern

[teaky]

Shld y wsh t shrtn wrds, lvng vwls ff s sppsedly th crrct wy.

 

Mk.

Isn't that just speaking Kiwi?

[Chamby]

If someone speaks in properly-constructed sentences, with tones, inflections and pauses that are consistent with the punctuation, then I find I can understand them irrespective of their accent in most cases. Dialects are slightly harder, either when (to me) uncommon words or, as we have already discussed, words that have different meanings in different places are used. I would be sad to see regional variations disappear though.

 

Having said that, three anecdotes if I may.

 

As a Londoner by birth and upbringing, going to work in Glasgow was quite a change. For the first three months or so, though, I couldn't understand anyone there and they couldn't understand me - so to avoid embarrassment we just nodded and agreed with each other.

 

In similar vein, some people in Scotland thought that I spoke with an Australian accent, which given where I now live is quite ironic.

 

Finally, my Singaporean partner's young cousin once complained that he couldn't understand my accent. I replied that I hadn't got an accent as I was English - everyone else had an accent.

. One additional anecdote if I may. I was a student at Leicester Poly back in the seventies. It had a large population of ethnic minority students, predominantly of Indian/Pakistani origin. Even though they spoke their native language amongst themselves, you could tell exactly which part of the UK was their home, as they spoke with local dialects... when I first heard Punjabi spoken with a strong Yorkshire accent, then someone responded in the same language with an East London twang, it was quite a surprise!

 

This does prompt me to comment on the relative lack of ethnic diversity I see among the participants in our hobby: Whilst British society is changing rapidly, I do wonder if this is another indicator of how much of a minority interest our hobby is becoming, with its roots firmly in the past whilst wider society rushes onwards...

[Tony Wright]

If someone speaks in properly-constructed sentences, with tones, inflections and pauses that are consistent with the punctuation, then I find I can understand them irrespective of their accent in most cases. Dialects are slightly harder, either when (to me) uncommon words or, as we have already discussed, words that have different meanings in different places are used. I would be sad to see regional variations disappear though.

 

Having said that, three anecdotes if I may.

 

As a Londoner by birth and upbringing, going to work in Glasgow was quite a change. For the first three months or so, though, I couldn't understand anyone there and they couldn't understand me - so to avoid embarrassment we just nodded and agreed with each other.

 

In similar vein, some people in Scotland thought that I spoke with an Australian accent, which given where I now live is quite ironic.

 

Finally, my Singaporean partner's young cousin once complained that he couldn't understand my accent. I replied that I hadn't got an accent as I was English - everyone else had an accent.

Thanks John,

 

I, too, would be dismayed to see regional variations in accent/dialect disappear.

 

Perhaps we are seeing a change, where having a strong regional accent is no longer any sort of 'barrier' to getting certain jobs. That said, I still believe that 'sloppy' and 'lazy' speech should have no place in the media, irrespective of the accent. I have several friends in Middlesbrough (I once had family living near there) and none of them says 'gerrin' or 'purrin' (putting) or refers to a group of people, whatever their gender, as 'yous guys'. 

 

I once attended college with a proud Welshwoman (she had every right to be proud). This has nothing to do with accent, but to do with a language. Though she was fluent in both English and Welsh, she was of the opinion that Welsh should be taught in all schools in the principality, 'at the exclusion of English'. When I pointed out that would rather limit anyone's chances of being understood east of the Severn (and beyond), she would accept no counter argument. 

 

But, enough of speech (or speeches in my case!), and on to modelling.

 

 

It's come my way again to find new homes for models once owned by the now-deceased. I have seven LNER locos to find new homes for, including the pair above. These are very well-made (builders unknown) and painted, and run quietly and smoothly. I've examined them, cleaned and oiled them, and, in the case of the D20, altered the motor's polarity so that it runs the same way as everything else. 

 

The others include an A6, B2, G5, J27 and Tram Engine. I'm in the process of examining these, and will post pictures once I'm satisfied with their running. 

 

All are OO Gauge, kit-built.

 

Anyone interested, please PM me.

 

Thanks in anticipation. 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Tony Wright

[TrevorP1]

People go to a bus station or bus stop to catch a bus. So why not a train station to catch a train (although I too abhor the phrase)?

 

 

Without wishing to prolong this discussion as, I think, 'Sir' has tactfully called a halt. I see it this way and I may be wrong, often am..

 

Traditionally at least people went to a railway station to use the many services offered by the railway, not just to catch a train. Similarly, a fire station is home to the fire service who do more than just put out fires - hence we don't say 'fire engine station'. Another example would be police station (if you can find one ) where there is access to the services provided by the police force.

[Jon4470]

Tony

 

Those are good looking locomotives! In my opinion traditional 4-4-0 locos have elegance and a balanced appearance that is hard to beat.

 

I must get back to building my kits soon......but in this weather the outdoors has first call!

 

Jon

[Black Marlin]

Now, and this is the interesting bit, at least to me. Other than my (snobbish) tendency to use 'big' words from time to time, nobody has ever complained that they cannot understand me. Yet, at this year's Glasgow Show, all I could do in response to a few questions was nod, or shake my head, or utter 'yes' or 'no' as I thought appropriate. The questions were incomprehensible to me, because of the strong accents. I've found the same in the N. East, in deepest Somerset, Essex and in Ireland; in fact, all points of the compass. Take these speakers away from their native heath, and they're impossible to understand. Yet, when I have managed to sort out a question, I seem to be perfectly-understood in my answer (or, at least, I think so). 

Good morning Tony. 

 

I suspect you find these accents incomprehensible due to their unfamiliarity. Glasgow is a good example; Aberdeen (particularly 'the Doric') is another. If you haven't heard them before, they may throw you until you 'get your ear in', so to speak. But... We have all heard you. For a very long time everyone on television talked like you. We've been exposed to your dialect and have grown accustomed to it; you have not heard ours and so are bemused.

 

My point is that the way you speak is not inherently more comprehensible than other any version of English; it's just that yours is a more familiar patois thanks to a century of effort by the BBC and others. The appearance of regional accents onscreen is a belated effort to redress the balance, and should be welcomed* as both a recognition of the equal cultural validity of different parts of the UK and as an attempt to eliminate a longstanding bias.

 

The Scottish poet James Robertson highlighted this in most amusing fashion by highlighting the difference between 'the news' and 'the news where you are'...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhL57cjN8xY

 

Regards,

Gavin

 

 

 

*There is an extremely long and lamentable history of a particular kind of colonising linguistic influence at work in 'the regions', spreading from the south of England (as the centre of political and economic strength); in my native Northern Ireland this is an extremely live topic, as the issue of recognising local language has prevented the power-sharing executive from reforming since it collapsed. One notable historical fact is that the British all but eradicated Gaelic as working language in the north of Ireland in only 40 years. But discussing the power dynamics at play in linguistic homogenisation comes perilously close to breaking RMWeb's 'no politics' rule, so I shall tiptoe away from it again!

 

 

edit: I posted this before I noted the stop to the discussion requested above. I shall leave it in place, simply because I think the points in it are worth making (and the youtube video is genuinely funny), but I have no desire to continue the discussion in the face of Tony's request to stop. My post was not made in defiance of that request but in ignorance of it! My apologies, Tony.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Black Marlin

[Wibble]

Thanks John,

 

I, too, would be dismayed to see regional variations in accent/dialect disappear.

 

Perhaps we are seeing a change, where having a strong regional accent is no longer any sort of 'barrier' to getting certain jobs. That said, I still believe that 'sloppy' and 'lazy' speech should have no place in the media, irrespective of the accent. I have several friends in Middlesbrough (I once had family living near there) and none of them says 'gerrin' or 'purrin' (putting) or refers to a group of people, whatever their gender, as 'yous guys'. 

 

I once attended college with a proud Welshwoman (she had every right to be proud). This has nothing to do with accent, but to do with a language. Though she was fluent in both English and Welsh, she was of the opinion that Welsh should be taught in all schools in the principality, 'at the exclusion of English'. When I pointed out that would rather limit anyone's chances of being understood east of the Severn (and beyond), she would accept no counter argument. 

 

But, enough of speech (or speeches in my case!), and on to modelling.

 

It's come my way again to find new homes for models once owned by the now-deceased. I have seven LNER locos to find new homes for, including the pair above. These are very well-made (builders unknown) and painted, and run quietly and smoothly. I've examined them, cleaned and oiled them, and, in the case of the D20, altered the motor's polarity so that it runs the same way as everything else. 

 

The others include an A6, B2, G5, J27 and Tram Engine. I'm in the process of examining these, and will post pictures once I'm satisfied with their running. 

 

All are OO Gauge, kit-built.

 

Anyone interested, please PM me.

 

Thanks in anticipation. 

There's a nice pair and I'm sure someone will be along to snap them up. Not that I know much about things steamy, is the D20 the one with straight or curvy mudguards?

[2ManySpams]

Tony,

 

Saw this and thought of you...

 

 

It's cast from solid concrete and about 4'long so probably doesn't need further weight.

 

I have pointed out to the caster that he needs to fit lamps, buffers and a crew. Also looks like some work is required to the pony wheels.

[The Stationmaster]

“Can I get?” instead of “May I have?” Aghhhh! As for ‘train station ‘....

 

To which my answer would be 'no madam, for hygiene and linguistic reasons we do not allow diners access to our kitchens'

[Chris-GNR]

Tony,

Saw this and thought of you...

IMAG4727.jpg

It's cast from solid concrete and about 4'long so probably doesn't need further weight.

I have pointed out to the caster that he needs to fit lamps, buffers and a crew. Also looks like some work is required to the pony wheels.

Definitely be rigid chassis.

 

Edited to keep the spelling Police happy.

[jamie92208]

Definitely be ridged chassis.

 

Or even a rigid one.

 

Jamie

[Clive Mortimore]

On Thursday evening I called my friend Dave to see what time he wanted me to man the door for Wrecrail held today in Market Harborough. Five minutes before England kicked off he asked if I could bring my small layout "Pig Lane Western Region" as a layout had pulled out. It hasn't been run for 9 months, I had erected it as it is due to go out in a few weeks time.  I had started to remove the tension lock couplings from the locomotives last week.

 

PANIC. After saying "Yes".

 

It has no buildings, so I drew and printed some using MS Paint. Added some greenery. I found a few bits I had recovered from older layouts which seemed appropriate  for the new depot. Didn't quite get everything I hoped to have sorted for today. It didn't look too bad, it ran reasonably well, being as the track hadn't been cleaned. Most bad running was self induced operator error owing to not running it recently. I had a very enjoyable day.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Clive Mortimore