Wright writes.....

[jamie92208]

That explains why I have had trouble matching the colour of the brickwork on the bridge on Worseter. It was painted about sixteen years ago and the colour matches the tin on the left. Tins bought recently match that on the right.

 

I have dents in my door frames too!

I also have dents in an antique davenport from the same source where 11 year old me clamped Airfix paint pots between the lid and the main frame to try and open them. I suppose that I'm now the antique, at least according to my kids.

 

Jamie

[St Enodoc]

Thanks for all the comments on various paints.

 

I tend to forget that discussions are often cyclic, but there does seem to be a problem with some of the (more recent?) Humbrol paints. 

 

To return to what I alluded to earlier, Humbrol was the choice of paint in my formative modelling years. Even in complete ignorance, I painted just about everything I made with it - not just railway stuff, but plastic kits, etc. I also used Airfix paint (in little bottles) and Revell enamels. I cannot recall ever having any problems with paint drying or getting an even surface, whether matt, semi-matt or gloss. All of this was against the background of (probably) not stirring the paint thoroughly and certainly not being entirely diligent with the preparation of surfaces and cleaning-up. That paint of 60+ years ago was probably nasty if consumed. Now, I must have been a brilliant boy, because I have no recollection of my parents ever telling me not to drink paint! Nor, I have to say, of their telling me not to 'paint' my models with orange juice. I just, somehow, knew. Wasn't I clever? 

 

Now, with years of experience (and never having been tempted to drink paint), I find that even with vigorous stirring, diligent surface-preparation, sound priming and practised paint-application, I fail (or the paint fails). Is this to be expected from modern enamels? It refuses to dry, and, even when it does, it's streaky. Or, a week after applying the first coat (yes, seven days!), the next coat mixes with the first one, making a gloopy mess and the whole lot has to come off. Are some of today's paints edible, in case an imbecile drinks them? I'm searching for answers because any older Humbrol paints I have (including the wonderful railway colours) won't last forever. 

 

Not all is doom and gloom, though. 

 

Tourist BSO.jpg

 

At the Stevenage Show, a mate sold me a part-built/part-painted Mailcoach Tourist BTO (BSO by my period). I don't normally buy rolling stock built by others, but, at £15.00, this was too good to miss. It had no roof, but it was generally made-up well, with the sides nicely-brush-painted in maroon. I looked at it, added guard's handrails, gave the sides a further coat of Railmatch BR maroon (excellent paint, this) and let it dry (it dried perfectly overnight). I then re-made the bogies (there was far too much sideways slop), adding the necessary footboards, fitted an MJT aluminium roof (with MJT ventilators), fitted MJT gangways and buffers, and brush-painted the underframe and ends with Humbrol matt black (No.33). The matt black is a recent tin, and it dried fine. After the disaster (already mentioned) of painting the roof, I used the matt black, lightened with the last of my old Humbrol matt grey No 67 (the new tin is hopeless). That worked as well. It was then lined and lettered; the lining by Replica, though Cambridge Custom Transfers' lining is just as fine, and the rest using Modelmasters' transfers. Finally, the sides were finished off by using Ronseal polyurethane satin varnish. This is great stuff - it has to be cleaned with thinners and dries to a rock-hard finish in 24 hours. 

 

It's made-up into an unusual and interesting brake vehicle. Thanks Charlie. 

How do you get on with Modelmasters transfers Tony (and others)? I find that a) they don't stick properly and/or b) I can stil see the carrier film after they dry. It's very frustrating as there is a lot of stuff in their range that is hard to find elsewhere.

[jwealleans]

Modelmaster need a high gloss surface to stick and not leave a halo of carrier film. If you have the nerve, though, you can peel off the carrier film once you've given the transfer a couple of days to dry off fully. I have managed it successfully once or twice.

 

You can also dissolve the carrier film carefully with white spirit on a cotton bud.

 

When I built a pair of blood and custard carriages for Tom Foster I had a really bad experience with HMRS lining and so tried Modelmaster instead. Although I was initially sceptical as it came in two halves, it was rigid enough to apply in a straight line, the two halves married up nicely and there was no visible halo. The left hand of these two vehicles was done using them.

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by jwealleans

[Jol Wilkinson]

Brian,

 

I know Ian uses Precision Paints. He also uses Ronseal polyurethane satin varnish, thinned down and air-brush applied.

 

 

I need to try Ronseal. I thought he used matt and gloss (mixed as required) so he can vary the finish depending on what he wants. I wonder what thins Ronseal?

 

According to his book and the DVD Ian uses PPP and Humbrol, as well as cellulose for spraying. PPP do  specific railway lining colours but I think Ian used Humbrol for the plain colours (red, white, black, etc.) or where he felt the Humbrol colour worked well for the livery. That may have changed in recent years (the book was published in 2007), perhaps Tony can ask him.

 

He also says that he prefers Ronseal polyurethane Gloss varnish (Hardglaze) as he found the Satin inconsistent. He uses PPP matting agent to get the satin effect, as well as adding some black to tone down lining. I've started to follow Ian's advice and found it works well. Ronseal can be thinned with white spirit although I am currently using some PPP Fast Drying Thinners, because I had it.

 

Previously I had used Humbrol satin varnish with 5% - 10% black added. Unfortunately model varnishes (Humbrol, etc.) can yellow over time. I have found this on several LNWR carriages where it is very evident on top of the white. Chris Stapleton of PPP says this can't be avoided, but hopefully Ronseal is immune.

[grob1234]

Thanks Jol.

 

I do have Ian's fantastic book, but I am too lazy to look inside right now! I recall the use of the matting agent now I think of it.

[Lecorbusier]

According to his book and the DVD Ian uses PPP and Humbrol, as well as cellulose for spraying. PPP do  specific railway lining colours but I think Ian used Humbrol for the plain colours (red, white, black, etc.) or where he felt the Humbrol colour worked well for the livery. That may have changed in recent years (the book was published in 2007), perhaps Tony can ask him.

 

He also says that he prefers Ronseal polyurethane Gloss varnish (Hardglaze) as he found the Satin inconsistent. He uses PPP matting agent to get the satin effect, as well as adding some black to tone down lining. I've started to follow Ian's advice and found it works well. Ronseal can be thinned with white spirit although I am currently using some PPP Fast Drying Thinners, because I had it.

 

Previously I had used Humbrol satin varnish with 5% - 10% black added. Unfortunately model varnishes (Humbrol, etc.) can yellow over time. I have found this on several LNWR carriages where it is very evident on top of the white. Chris Stapleton of PPP says this can't be avoided, but hopefully Ronseal is immune.

By way of a comment on technology transfer, as architects we stopped using oil based varnishes quite a while ago as they all have a tendency to cloud and yellow/orange as they age and are exposed to UV. We now exclusively use Acrylic PU lacquers for fine woodwork and these have proved very successful. For furniture it is all spray applied.  I don't know if the Ronseal is acrylic or oil based. The supplier we are currently using are Wood Finishes of Yeovil but they are wholesale supply. 

[Anglian]

According to his book and the DVD Ian uses PPP and Humbrol, as well as cellulose for spraying. PPP do  specific railway lining colours but I think Ian used Humbrol for the plain colours (red, white, black, etc.) or where he felt the Humbrol colour worked well for the livery. That may have changed in recent years (the book was published in 2007), perhaps Tony can ask him.

 

He also says that he prefers Ronseal polyurethane Gloss varnish (Hardglaze) as he found the Satin inconsistent. He uses PPP matting agent to get the satin effect, as well as adding some black to tone down lining. I've started to follow Ian's advice and found it works well. Ronseal can be thinned with white spirit although I am currently using some PPP Fast Drying Thinners, because I had it.

 

Previously I had used Humbrol satin varnish with 5% - 10% black added. Unfortunately model varnishes (Humbrol, etc.) can yellow over time. I have found this on several LNWR carriages where it is very evident on top of the white. Chris Stapleton of PPP says this can't be avoided, but hopefully Ronseal is immune.

 

Tim beat me to it whilst I was keying my response but here it is anyway…

 

It won't be. Some years ago when I was looking for a vanish that wouldn't yellow I rang a few paint manufacturers (model paints and DIY paints) and was eventually able to speak to folks in their labs.

 

In every single instance I was told the same thing. Paints or varnishes with an oil or lacquer base have the ability to yellow over time. That is not to say they will but they can. Paints with an acrylic resin base can be made non yellowing. Often they are noted on the label as non-yellowing. I always looks for this when buying acrylic varnish. The choice is yours but I would never use an oil or lacquer based varnish no matter how nice it is to spray or brush on. DIY varnishes tend to be amongst the worst for yellowing. The chap I spoke to at Blackfriars told me to avoid them for model making when I explained my requirements.

 

Having had Humbrol matt white enamel go yellow and having to had to spend weeks repainting due to that happening I now  mainly stick to acrylics. (I'm fairly sure the etch primer I use is cellulose based – it certainly smells like it.)

 

Vallejo acrylic varnish is non yellowing – their gloss is great but less keen on the satin and the matt is useless IMHO. Both W&N and Daler Rowney produce non-yellowing matt varnishes. These can be 'doctored' to dry super matt.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Anglian

[Porcy Mane]

That explains why I have had trouble matching the colour of the brickwork on the bridge on Worseter. It was painted about sixteen years ago and the colour matches the tin on the left. Tins bought recently match that on the right.

 

I have dents in my door frames too!

 

Hi John,

This is how I got on with Humbrol Matt Varnish once manufacturing had returned to the UK.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102991-humbrol-clear/&do=findComment&comment=2017717

 

Close up it looked like this.

 

 

Good job it was just used as a base for further weathering. 

 

P

 

Edit. To clarify recent varnish.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[grob1234]

Hi John,

This is how I got on with the UK manufactured Humbrol Matt Varnish.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102991-humbrol-clear/&do=findComment&comment=2017717

 

Close up it looked like this.

 

CovhopBachmann-15-sm.JPG

 

Good job it was just used as a base for further weathering. 

 

P

 

You could say it was frost?!

[Killybegs]

Hi John,

This is how I got on with the UK manufactured Humbrol Matt Varnish.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102991-humbrol-clear/&do=findComment&comment=2017717

 

Close up it looked like this.

 

CovhopBachmann-15-sm.JPG

 

Good job it was just used as a base for further weathering. 

 

P

 

B****y hell!

[Porcy Mane]

You could say it was frost?!

 

Luckily it doesen't look to far off Dolime dust which the Covhop is meant to be carrying.

 

P

[Barry Ten]

"Interestingly", I found an old tin of Humbrol matt varnish the other day. I opened it with trepidation, gave it a good stir, (it looked more like Tate and Lyle golden syrup in the jar) tried it on a test area, and found it gave a superbly matt finish after only a few minute's drying time. I'm applying it over BR rail blue so if it yellows a little with age it's no great problem, as the real hue has a yellow component.

 

Al

[John Isherwood]

Hi John,

This is how I got on with Humbrol Matt Varnish once manufacturing had returned to the UK.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102991-humbrol-clear/&do=findComment&comment=2017717

 

Close up it looked like this.

 

CovhopBachmann-15-sm.JPG

 

Good job it was just used as a base for further weathering. 

 

P

 

Edit. To clarify recent varnish.

 

That effect is due to a massive overdose of matting agent in the mix.

 

Years ago, I use to add talcum powder in order to dull / matt paints and varnishes - if I was too heavy-handed I got that effect.

 

I now use Tamiya matting agent, but you have to be careful - you need a lot less than you would think.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[polybear]

Hi John,

This is how I got on with Humbrol Matt Varnish once manufacturing had returned to the UK.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/102991-humbrol-clear/&do=findComment&comment=2017717

 

Close up it looked like this.

 

CovhopBachmann-15-sm.JPG

 

Good job it was just used as a base for further weathering. 

 

P

 

Edit. To clarify recent varnish.

 

Jeez.  I thought it was weathering for a China Clay layout......

[Porcy Mane]

That effect is due to a massive overdose of matting agent in the mix.

 

Years ago, I use to add talcum powder in order to dull / matt paints and varnishes - if I was too heavy-handed I got that effect.

 

Yes John that was my conclusion. Funny though, how the effect almost fully disappeared on top of the waterslides making them far more apparent.

 

Strange how I'd been trying to achieve a similar weathering effect by adding talc to enamel varnish for quite some time but was never happy with the finish, then Hornby cracked it unintentionally. 

 

P

[Jamiel]

I really have to take issue with some statements I have seen in this thread recently.

The idea that all the decrease in quality of products over the years is entirely due to European legislation or the 'nanny state'. This may have some some effect, but I don't see anyone blaming the outsourcing of manufacture to third party companies that undercut established producers, using substandard ingredients, or the moving of production away from skilled workforces to cheap labour in countries with less stringent human/workers rights.

For example, the change from using UK call centres to ones in countries where they can barely speak the language of the customers is not driven by safety, and just how many of the companies you deal with have done that? Cost cutting plain and simple, and sadly our hobby is not immune from that either.

So yes, there have been some changes that affect us to try and protect children from harming themselves with products that may be poisonous, and some of those may have come from the UK government and some from abroad, but the bottom line of cheap production has as much, and I would suggest a greater effect on the final quality of products.

If you want a good quality product, then you must punish companies that drop the quality of their product by cost cutting by not buying their products. It will cost you more to buy from companies that continue to use those skilled in the production of the product, or those set up using those skilled workers let go by the cost cutting companies.

I would like to think you get what you pay for, but established brands are changing their products which we only discover when we go to use it and find it is poorer. You either accept that things are not as good as they were, or you find another brand that hopefully is maintaining a quality service.

Jamie

[gr.king]

All that talk on the last page about scarred door frames caused by opening screw-top paint jars!

 

Am I the only one to twist the caps off using nutcrackers around the upper part of the cap? If you grip the cap lower down they just crush / shatter it, depending on the material of the cap.

 

Doesn't apply if they are slatted of course.....

[richard i]

I use a rubber band wound around the twist off lid to give better purchase. No danger of cracking the lid. I always have one in the paint box.

Richard

[Porcy Mane]

All that talk on the last page about scarred door frames caused by opening screw-top paint jars!

 

Am I the only one to twist the caps off using nutcrackers around the upper part of the cap? If you grip the cap lower down they just crush / shatter it, depending on the material of the cap.

 

Doesn't apply if they are slatted of course.....

 

You're just far to young to remember. Nut crackers to undo tops of paint jars and the like only came in with the nanny state.    

 

A trick well used by painters and decorators with the roor jam being soft enough not to crack a plastic top or distort a metal one.

 

 

Nut crackers would never have turned these tops.

 

 

 

 

N.B. the tin of Dudley Dockers paint who also supplied paint to railway works and who's companies repaired many a railway wagon. His wife also had a liking for gold plated handles on her motor cars and preferred the seats to be covered with finest Zebra hide.  Funny old world.

 

 

 

P

Edited January 18, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[jwealleans]

His wife also had a liking for gold plated handles on her motor cars

She was great. Did she ever invade Monaco?

[Porcy Mane]

She was great. Did she ever invade Monaco?

 

Apparently tried to paint it red. Dockers paint no doubt. Happy to be the recipient of Bernies tax fiddles.

 

P

[polybear]

I really have to take issue with some statements I have seen in this thread recently.

 

The idea that all the decrease in quality of products over the years is entirely due to European legislation or the 'nanny state'. This may have some some effect, but I don't see anyone blaming the outsourcing of manufacture to third party companies that undercut established producers, using substandard ingredients, or the moving of production away from skilled workforces to cheap labour in countries with less stringent human/workers rights.

 

 

My view is that releasing sub-standard products and/or those that are simply not fit for purpose to the market is unforgivable. 

[Clive Mortimore]

My view is that releasing sub-standard products and/or those that are simply not fit for purpose to the market is unforgivable. 

I take it you have made a formal complaint to trading standards that Hornby who own Humbrol are making paint that is not fit for purpose. They must be in breach of some British Standard if it is unfit for purpose.

[Tony Wright]

Thanks, once more, for the continued discussion about paints. Most interesting. 

 

To pick-up one point, I'm all for the protection of children, but I do become very cross when using some glues which I'm convinced are not as good (as a glue) as they used to be. I ask myself the question, is this because they're now safer if folk wish to put the stuff into a polythene bag and inhale the fumes? I have no empirical evidence for this, only my own anecdotal observations. Over 25 years ago, I glued brass sides to plastic carriages with impact adhesive and the joint is still as good as new. Some I glued together a decade ago with the same brand have come apart. I admit, it could be my poor preparation, but it's a fact. 

 

Regarding oil-based varnishes, I've used Ronseal for years and years as a top coat for some of the models I've painted. If it's yellowed with age, then it's also mellowed with age. A 40+ year old Jamieson V2 I made was varnished with the stuff (or whatever it was called then) and it's still nice and green. Anyway, I might have thought (slight) yellowing over time might be an advantage, particularly for models depicting earlier times. Didn't the real varnishes yellow? I would have thought on teak-like finishes it was a positive advantage.  

 

 

 

Speaking of varnishing things, I'm very happy with the brush-applied finish given to the Tourist BSO by the Ronseal polyurethane satin varnish. If it goes yellow in time, then it'll be a problem for my descendants to deal with, unless I live to a very ripe old age. 

 

It's very much a layout coach, and close inspection will reveal the numerous little specks and blobs apparent in multi-coats of sable-applied enamels/polyurethanes. I only noticed after taking these pictures that the whole thing has a slight 'bow', something not unknown in wooden-bodied carriages. Still, as a layout coach in a layout train on a 'big' layout, I think it fits. 

 

Two days ago, I promised to load the trusty F with FP3, and here are the results................

 

 

The inspiration for this picture is shown below in a shot taken by Gavin Morrison in February 1958 (I apologise for the seasonal differences). Because the layout is 14 inches short in scale between the most northerly turn-out and the M&GNR formation, I (also because of physics) cannot exactly get the same viewpoint. At least the loco is the same. 

 

 

 

Another (though rather grotty) prototype shot taken from the same vantage point (photographer unknown), but some 18 months later. It shows 60110 ROBERT THE DEVIL heading the Down 'Yorkshire Pullman'. 

 

 

This is my attempt in model form. I don't have 60110, so 60054 will have to suffice. This is the last of my Hornby A3s, and the 'wrong' look to the valve gear is evident. Again, for the reasons already cited, I cannot get the same angle. 

 

If nothing else, these model shots show how much the layout is developing, even if I still have all that point rodding/signal posts to install. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Porcy Mane]

 

To pick-up one point, I'm all for the protection of children, but I do become very cross when using some glues which I'm convinced are not as good (as a glue) as they used to be. I ask myself the question, is this because they're now safer if folk wish to put the stuff into a polythene bag and inhale the fumes? I have no empirical evidence for this, only my own anecdotal observations. Over 25 years ago, I glued brass sides to plastic carriages with impact adhesive and the joint is still as good as new. Some I glued together a decade ago with the same brand have come apart. I admit, it could be my poor preparation, but it's a fact. 

 

 

Evo-stick is only a shadow of it's former self since the removal of toluene from the formulation. If you ever attend the seminars run by Nikon Professional services you will have witnessed the service engineers renewing and replacing the grip rubbers on metal bodied cameras as a matter of course. The service boys will tell you that was something that never needed doing before the reformulation.

 

Fortunately we don't seem to hear a great deal about glue sniffing nowadays.

 

P