Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

Having collected the 1938 'Scotsman triplet catering set from Geoff Haynes yesterday (after he'd painted/lined the bodies), it was my job to glaze it all today and add the concertina gangways. 

 

 

The superiority of the bow-pen lining is clear to see (it gives 'space' for the brandings to 'breath'). The 'Kitchen' signage on the RK doors was missing (something I didn't notice on collection and - of course - until after I'd taken this picture). That's not a problem because either Geoff would immediately put them on, or, as in my case, I've now done it. 

 

 

As is evident here.

 

Great care was taken in getting the car brandings in the right place. The open cars had a vertical beading band just about midships on their lower sides (unlike on the earlier catering triplets). Though absolute photographic evidence is lacking, it would seem that 'Restaurant' and 'Car' could be separated by this bead, but not the letters in either of the words themselves (which would be the case if they'd be placed dead centre). BR Roundels were applied to these cars in 1957. 

 

I've yet to add the curtains to the RFO, and make both interiors (including the standing bar in the RFO). 

 

This model is tripartite in its origins/finishings. The bodywork and some of the underframe detail was built by John Houlden, using Rupert Brown's etchings, MJT parts and Comet parts. I completed the underframes, made the bogies and painted the running gear, Geoff then painted the bodies, leaving the finishing off to me. It's shown in use as part of 'The Northumbrian', for which I've also got to build the Southern Pride Cravens SO Prototype Mk.1. 

 

The subject of 'prototype colour' has been brought up, and how it could/can differ (though beware older trannies being used as absolute guides). Model paint manufacturers have many different opinions as to which tint or shade of colour is correct, given the variations in their interpretations in their products. 

 

May I also mention 'finish'? The cars above were painted by Geoff using Ford Burgundy Red, but decanted into an airbrush for a better finish than the 'spluttery' can at source. I asked him to leave them in gloss (though it's not mirror finish). Comparing prototype pictures of ER wooden-bodied and steel-bodied stock, when freshly-painted (and freshly-cleaned), they had a beautiful gloss finish. 

 

 

The triplet in this 1958/'59 Down Newcastle express is an earlier, turnbuckle underframe type. It's very clean, and note the roundels. Obviously, the carriage to the left is just ex-works, and would anything as vibrant as this be 'right' on a model (it is a near 60-year old image, remember). 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Tetarch60]

Having collected the 1938 'Scotsman triplet catering set from Geoff Haynes yesterday (after he'd painted/lined the bodies), it was my job to glaze it all today and add the concertina gangways. 

 

38 triplet 01.jpg

 

The superiority of the bow-pen lining is clear to see (it gives 'space' for the brandings to 'breath'). The 'Kitchen' signage on the RK doors was missing (something I didn't notice on collection and - of course - until after I'd taken this picture). That's not a problem because either Geoff would immediately put them on, or, as in my case, I've now done it. 

 

38 triplet 02.jpg

 

As is evident here.

 

Great care was taken in getting the car brandings in the right place. The open cars had a vertical beading band just about midships on their lower sides (unlike on the earlier catering triplets). Though absolute photographic evidence is lacking, it would seem that 'Restaurant' and 'Car' could be separated by this bead, but not the letters in either of the words themselves (which would be the case if they'd be placed dead centre). BR Roundels were applied to these cars in 1957. 

 

I've yet to add the curtains to the RFO, and make both interiors (including the standing bar in the RFO). 

 

This model is tripartite in its origins/finishings. The bodywork and some of the underframe detail was built by John Houlden, using Rupert Brown's etchings, MJT parts and Comet parts. I completed the underframes, made the bogies and painted the running gear, Geoff then painted the bodies, leaving the finishing off to me. It's shown in use as part of 'The Northumbrian', for which I've also got to build the Southern Pride Cravens SO Prototype Mk.1. 

 

The subject of 'prototype colour' has been brought up, and how it could/can differ (though beware older trannies being used as absolute guides). Model paint manufacturers have many different opinions as to which tint or shade of colour is correct, given the variations in their interpretations in their products. 

 

May I also mention 'finish'? The cars above were painted by Geoff using Ford Burgundy Red, but decanted into an airbrush for a better finish than the 'spluttery' can at source. I asked him to leave them in gloss (though it's not mirror finish). Comparing prototype pictures of ER wooden-bodied and steel-bodied stock, when freshly-painted (and freshly-cleaned), they had a beautiful gloss finish. 

 

E1446.jpg

 

The triplet in this 1958 Down Newcastle express is an earlier, turnbuckle underframe type. It's very clean, and note the roundels. Obviously, the carriage to the left is just ex-works, and would anything as vibrant as this be 'right' on a model (it is a near 60-year old image, remember).

Afternoon all.Tony,that triplet set is absolutely gorgeous,a lovely rich red.how do I contact Rupert Brown to obtain some etchings to produce a similar coach set? Being one of the last luddites of this parish, how do I post any photographs onto these pages?

[Tony Wright]

Afternoon all.Tony,that triplet set is absolutely gorgeous,a lovely rich red.how do I contact Rupert Brown to obtain some etchings to produce a similar coach set? Being one of the last luddites of this parish, how do I post any photographs onto these pages?

Good evening BR A3 113,

 

Thank you for your comments. 

 

Rupert Brown no longer handles the etches. They can be obtained from Wizard Models (Comet and MSE).

 

Are you going to Warley? If so, Andrew Hartsthorne will be there. 

 

As for posting images. You click on 'Reply with attachments' (in the bottom RH corner). Then, when the box come us, you click on 'Choose file' (from the source you're taking it from - off your computer or a memory stick), then 'Attach this file', then 'Add to post'. 

 

Files can be no bigger than 1 meg, preferably smaller, jpegs. 

 

That's how I do it. I assume other users do the same? 

[Tony Wright]

Don't forget to call in on stand A56 whilst you're in the demo area - I have it on good authority that up to five of 'Sir's locos will be running on the 1967-themed layout...

Let me think...............

 

An A4, a BR Standard Five, a BR Standard 9F (two, if you'll run one finished, but unpainted), two Brush Type 4s and a DJH Class 25?

 

Do you need any more? 

[LNER4479]

Let me think...............

 

An A4, a BR Standard Five, a BR Standard 9F (two, if you'll run one finished, but unpainted), two Brush Type 4s and a DJH Class 25?

 

Do you need any more? 

They should be fine Tony. I have it on good authority that there's been a late influx of Black 5's (Hurrah!) and EE type 3s (yuck!) so all is well.

 

However, I'm sure that the team will happily run anything vaguely suitable in the final hour. I'm taking along my newly-acquired 46256 hoping she (he!) might get a run... See you there!

[Blue Max]

Afternoon all.Tony,that triplet set is absolutely gorgeous,a lovely rich red.how do I contact Rupert Brown to obtain some etchings to produce a similar coach set? Being one of the last luddites of this parish, how do I post any photographs onto these pages?

Rupert created the Cad for the 1924 Triplet set, the 1928 set that is also available fron CPL Products, the 1938 set that Dan Pinnock sold prior to the range moving to wizard and the BR 1957 rebuild of the 1938 set for the Northumbrian. Andrew at Wizard is most helpful and over the years has introduced many of the extensive range of LNER/GNR/ECJS etches from the large list of RDEB designs, when I have enquired about their availability.

[Clive Mortimore]

Let me think...............

 

An A4, a BR Standard Five, a BR Standard 9F (two, if you'll run one finished, but unpainted), two Brush Type 4s and a DJH Class 25?

 

Do you need any more? 

DJH BR Type 2 Bo-Bo (class 25) I acquired one, sold as being wonderful because it had Ultra Scale wheels. These were soon replaced as they tended to change gauge. On the same bogie one axle would open out to P4 as fast as the other went down to 14.2 mm. I did mention this at my model railway club and was informed by a P4 modeller it was because I was running it on Peco track. When I did get it running it was never the best. The etched detail isn't up to the moulded detail on the better running Bachmann model. Oddly when the DJH model was introduced there was a heap of praise for it, not so for the Bachmann model.

 

The best late body class 25 I have had was built by Colin

Hornby 25 converted using the Craftsman kit.

 

I did do a few conversions of Hornby 25s into late bodies 25s.

not the bestest photo.

 

I do have the DJH loco and will take a photo tomorrow with it alongside a Bachmann model.

[robertcwp]

Just to clarify, and I apologise if it has already been mentioned, when lining Gresley coaches in BR livery the black is on the beading but the yellow is either side:

IMG_0110.jpg

Unless it's a Scottish Region one, in which case the lining was more often below the beading:

 

SC16657E_Tulloch_1-6-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[MikeTrice]

I wonder why it differs?

[Bob-65b]

Puts it in better alignment with the BR Mk1 Stock bottom lining...  Somebody used the BR lining diagram for the standard stock in error perhaps? or perhaps not - though not clear, this set at Mallaig, shows another with the same lining;

Coachingstock_Mallaig_1950s by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Edited November 23, 2017 by Bob-65b

[Headstock]

Perhaps the Scottish region used transfers while the Eastern region used a bow - pen.

[Headstock]

Puts it in better alignment with the BR Mk1 Stock bottom lining...  Somebody used the BR lining diagram for the standard stock in error perhaps? or perhaps not - though not clear, this set at Mallaig, shows another with the same lining;

Coachingstock_Mallaig_1950s by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

I'm not completely convinced that there are any maroon carriages in that shot. As far as I recall the original BR specification only stipulated the distance of the lining band from the window irrespective of carriage type. The original lining style on Gresley Crimson and cream carriages was altered and lowered to match that of Thompson stock. If the original specification was followed to the letter it would put the lining band on the beading. It may be that the lower band in Roberts picture may be a case of putting it in the same place as had become standard on Crimson and cream stock.

[Bob-65b]

you could be right in that case Andrew (it does look a bit pre-1956) - however it does pop up from time to time on maroon painted Gresley stock on the Scottish Region - see another example here in this video from 1959 at around 5.07 onwards;

Edited November 23, 2017 by Bob-65b

[Headstock]

you could be right in that case Andrew (it does look a bit pre-1956) - however it does pop up from time to time on maroon painted Gresley stock on the Scottish Region - see another example here in this video from 1959 at around 5.07 onwards;

 

Awesome bit of film Bob,

 

That little K2 is outperforming nominally more powerful preserved steam in the same locations. To add to the confusion, the Gresley corridor third at 1.59 has its lining on the beading. Perhaps some works had taller painters than others. It Just goes to show, copy the real railway and you can't go far wrong

[Bob-65b]

The ex-Cowlairs painters & signwriters I knew were quite short hence the frequent use of trestles.

[Enterprisingwestern]

The ex-Cowlairs painters & signwriters I knew were quite short hence the frequent use of trestles.

 

OO not P4?

 

Mike.

[mullie]

you could be right in that case Andrew (it does look a bit pre-1956) - however it does pop up from time to time on maroon painted Gresley stock on the Scottish Region - see another example here in this video from 1959 at around 5.07 onwards;

For tho

 

you could be right in that case Andrew (it does look a bit pre-1956) - however it does pop up from time to time on maroon painted Gresley stock on the Scottish Region - see another example here in this video from 1959 at around 5.07 onwards;

What a fantastic bit of film.

 

Martyn

[t-b-g]

I'm not completely convinced that there are any maroon carriages in that shot. As far as I recall the original BR specification only stipulated the distance of the lining band from the window irrespective of carriage type. The original lining style on Gresley Crimson and cream carriages was altered and lowered to match that of Thompson stock. If the original specification was followed to the letter it would put the lining band on the beading. It may be that the lower band in Roberts picture may be a case of putting it in the same place as had become standard on Crimson and cream stock.

If you enlarge the photo there is a pretty clear line of three colours, a centre dark one with lighter colours above and below, just above the T of the door handles.

 

If that isn't BR lining on a maroon carriage, I would be very surprised.

Edited November 24, 2017 by t-b-g

[Tony Wright]

 

 

 It Just goes to show, copy the real railway and you can't go far wrong

If ever a statement deserves to be the first thing any railway modeller considers before starting a model, be it anything from the smallest item to a complete layout, then yours is it, Andrew. 

 

Why do so many not do so? Recently, in one of the mags there was a prominent layout which, though it had some rather nice architectural modelling, as a 'railway' it just didn't 'work' at all (it didn't work well as a model, either, if my watching of it recently was anything to go by). The trackplan would surely not have been designed by a railway engineer, nor the routing through a settlement, not to mention the signals placed in positions which didn't make sense (non-working, of course), and as for the locos not displaying any lamps - well! 

 

I wrote to the editor in question (on another matter) and mentioned these 'anomalies', and he considered it rather more the 'norm' than 'my layout'; I'd sent of the pictures and article on LB. This is in no way to praise what I and a group has done, other than to state that we have all looked at the prototype, and 'copied' it. 

 

As the memories of the railway which the majority right now 'model' (BR steam-diesel transition) diminish or disappear, then, at least to me, it's important that depictions seen in print or at shows are as 'accurate' as possible (the layout I've mentioned wasn't from that period). The same goes for every model as well in my view, whichever period is depicted. Hence, look at the prototype pictures. Those who model the railway of today only need to go out and look, take measurements and photographs, and go and build a model. Yet, some current depictions I've seen don't make sense, either. Because the builders didn't look?

 

Given the (obvious) restrictions modelling an actual prototype imposes, I still maintain it's by far the best way to go. After all, most of the difficult decisions have been made for you. 

[Tony Wright]

If you enlarge the photo there is a pretty clear line of three colours, a centre dark one with lighter colours above and below, must above the T of the door handles.

 

If that isn't BR lining on a maroon carriage, I would be very surprised.

I think the cars to the right are in carmine and cream (in shadow), not maroon. The areas above the lining are lighter in tone. 

 

It would also appear to be the case that one of the Thompsons to the left is still in ersatz teak. That being so, since BR maroon didn't appear until 1956/'57, any Thompsons would certainly have been repainted (into BR livery) by then. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Tony Wright

[t-b-g]

I think the cars to the right are in carmine and cream (in shadow), not maroon. The areas above the lining are lighter in tone.

 

It would also appear to be the case that one of the Thompsons to the left is still in ersatz teak. That being so, since BR maroon didn't appear until 1956/'57, any Thompsons would certainly have been repainted (into BR livery) by then.

 

Why the light colours above and be!ow the dark line then? If it was carmine and cream, there would be one dark and one light line.

 

The !owed panels are reflecting the platform. The upper ones reflect the sky, giving the impression of being lighter.

Edited November 24, 2017 by t-b-g

[Bob-65b]

We are fortunate for the work of the likes of Ron Fisher who gives us prototype examples.  In this case one at the "norm" and one not (ironically the beaver tail having been done at Cowlairs);

R0312. LNER Beavertail at Crianlarich. July, 1960. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

[Headstock]

Why the light colours above and be!ow the dark line then? If it was carmine and cream, there would be one dark and one light line.

 

The !owed panels are reflecting the platform. The upper ones reflect the sky, giving the impression of being lighter.

 

A very quick reply before I disappear out the door, having blown the picture up I remain convinced that the two Gresleys carriages to the right are in Crimson and cream. I would agree with Tony that the Thompson carriage in the middle of the picture is in painted teak, it also carries a left hand number, something not seen on maroon stock. Finally, notice the lack of right hand number on the Thompson BCK to the left, all indications of the early fifties.

[St Enodoc]

We are fortunate for the work of the likes of Ron Fisher who gives us prototype examples.  In this case one at the "norm" and one not (ironically the beaver tail having been done at Cowlairs);

R0312. LNER Beavertail at Crianlarich. July, 1960. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

What a wonderful photo Bob. All it lacks is the smell of bacon and egg rolls from the refreshment room...

[t-b-g]

A very quick reply before I disappear out the door, having blown the picture up I remain convinced that the two Gresleys carriages to the right are in Crimson and cream. I would agree with Tony that the Thompson carriage in the middle of the picture is in painted teak, it also carries a left hand number, something not seen on maroon stock. Finally, notice the lack of right hand number on the Thompson BCK to the left, all indications of the early fifties.

 

That would be the logical conclusion and I can understand why it is put forward but the lining still bothers me. It is clearly a dark line with a pale line either side. Every crimson/cream carriage I have ever taken notice of just had two lines there, with black next to the cream. On the photo there is a pale line between the black line and the top part of the carriage. If the pale line is straw, yellow, gold or cream then the top half of the carriage has to be darker than that otherwise the line would be invisible on a b & w photo.

 

What I don't know is if some crimson and cream carriages did indeed have three lines between the colours with a line pale enough to show up paler than the cream. If they did, I would be happy to agree that they are indeed in that livery. Until then, I will maintain my doubts.