Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

60047 at Ganwick is probably on the 6.26 pm King's Cross-Hull which was a 9-car train approximating to what is in the image. The sun is from the west so it must be an afternoon/evening shot. The GE short composite could simply be a substitute for a non-available Mark I CK.

 

1960 summer formation (Mon-Fri) was CK, BSO, TSO, TSO, BSO, RF, SO, CK, BSK (all booked Mark I except RF, SO) and the winter 1960-1 formation (which also ran on Saturdays was basically the same). Formation does not match exactly as the second carriage in the image is a BSK but the overall shape looks correct. Moreover, aside from the Talisman, it's the only 9-car non-Pullman train I can find that might have had pacific haulage. The front three were detached at Doncaster except on Fridays. I don't have the summer GN Main Line books (or the ECML ones) for the summers of 1961 or 1962, which is probably when the photo was taken. When 60047 gained deflectors would be a clue.

 

Carriage workings were more a statement of intent that what exactly happened but for regular services the overall formation would I think usually be close to booked due to seat reservations and needing to maintain approximately the booked capacity.

Thanks once more Robert,

 

You're quite right about the Carriage Working books being a statement of intent. They represent an 'ideal', but in the real world the services still have to be run, often with the nearest possible substitute. 

 

I've included some more images of 'mixed' ECML trains for comment, please. I think this is where (on a personal level) a thread like Wright Writes is of great value. Not because of my involvement - I don't mean that - but because so much invaluable expertise is instantly on tap. Putting together this (these) books for Booklaw is proving extremely interesting (if puzzling and time-consuming) and the huge help from Daddyman and the likes of yourself (and Mark) has made it possible for my being able to do this. David Jenkinson once observed of Keith Pirt 'Brilliant photographer, but useless at writing captions'. I can understand his point of view. There are various notes as to when locos were built/rebuilt/named/renamed/repainted/scrapped, etc, all of which can be gleaned from the RCTS or Yeadon. Yet, nothing on locations, dates or workings. I'm certainly not going to write captions where all I've done is open the RCTS or Yeadon. The books have to be much more than that to have any worth in my view. 

 

It's also extremely interesting (at least to me) where the prototype pictures can be linked to model-making - once more, Wright Writes joins the two, so thanks to all who contribute in this manner. 

 

Anyway, some more interesting trains..............

 

 

A non-stop at Retford around 1959. Note the two Thompson pressure-ventilated cars in this set. 

 

 

Gresley all-door and end-door stock in this set at Eaton Wood, which includes a Kitchen Car. Again, 1959?

 

 

An express at Red Hall (Hatfield) includes some ex-LMS cars. Note the leading Mk. 1, carrying the BR roundel suggesting work in a more prestigious diagram (what's that chalked or painted on its side?). A Saturday working? 

 

 

Stoke in 1962, with a Thompson RSO carrying the BR roundel.

 

 

Probably taken on the same day as the above (a Saturday), with an A3 in charge of a rake of mainly ex-LMS cars. There appear to be one or two Mk.1s at the rear. 

 

 

A more uniform Mk.1 rake at Ganwick in 1962 (though two carmine/cream cars are still there). I've never seen an A3 with a blue-backed nameplate before (SINGAPORE). This rake could well return north behind a Deltic, so running C/C stock is legitimate behind an EE Type 5. 

 

 

Leaving Grantham, an Up express is seen in 1961/'62 - note wing deflectors on WOOLWINDER and electrification warning flashes. The leading car is a Four-Compt Gresley Brake Third, with turnbuckle underframe. 

 

 

Stoke, again in 1962, this time a Down train. On this occasion, the leading car is also a Four-Comp Gresley Brake Third, but this time it's on angle trussing. 

 

 

 

Mention of a Gresley Four-Compt Brake Third leads me on to this latest car I've completed. It's the usual mix of Hornby donor and MJT replacement sides. Folk might recall I did several of such conversions for Gilbert Barnatt, and I've done even more for myself (of all diagrams). It's a shame that Hornby's Gresleys as supplied cannot be used (at least as far as I'm concerned), but they do make useful donors. 

 

Out of interest, the lining is Cambridge Custom Transfers on one side and Replica on the other (I forget which). This is much finer than other transfer alternatives, even though (because of physical limitations) it cannot be applied to the central beading (as it should be), but just beneath it. I thought I'd got it (and the numbers/lettering) absolutely dead straight, but the camera highlights my deficiencies. It is, in my defence, like every carriage I make/paint, a 'layout carriage' - nothing more.

 

The dates and locations of the prototype locations are my conclusions/suppositions. If any are clearly wrong, then will folk please let me know. Any other comments and observations will be gratefully received. 

 

My thanks in anticipation. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Clive Mortimore]

E1157.jpg

 

An express at Red Hall (Hatfield) includes some ex-LMS cars. Note the leading Mk. 1, carrying the BR roundel suggesting work in a more prestigious diagram (what's that chalked or painted on its side?). A Saturday working? 

 

Hello Tony

 

The "rules" governing the use of the roundel was supposed to be for named trains and other important expresses. My observation of photos of the maroon coaching stock period suggest that the LMR carriage works misread the rules and slapped them on willy nilly as more coaches in LMR trains seem to carry them than the other regions.

[coachmann]

Hello Tony

 

The "rules" governing the use of the roundel was supposed to be for named trains and other important expresses. My observation of photos of the maroon coaching stock period suggest that the LMR carriage works misread the rules and slapped them on willy nilly as more coaches in LMR trains seem to carry them than the other regions.

Most likely because important expresses on the LMR were formed of ex. LMS coaches hence there were more carrying roundels. It was easier to slip Mk.I's into East Coast trains because of matching gangways and couplings whereas I heard the London Midland was pleased about its old 'standard' gangways as it was able to continue putting the far more comfortable LMS coaches on its trains. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by coachmann

[robertcwp]

Most likely because important expresses on the LMR were formed of ex. LMS coaches hence there were more carrying roundels. It was easier to slip Mk.I's into East Coast trains because of matching gangways and couplings whereas I heard the London Midland was pleased about its old 'standard' gangways as it was able to continue putting the far more comfortable LMS coaches on its trains. 

Plenty of them were mostly Mark I by the late 1950s, some much earlier than that, such as the Royal Scot. The gangway issues diminished as more Class A stock was fitted with gangway adaptors. In the early days of the BR Standard stock it was a real problem. There is a published photo of the Royal Scot with a Bulleid carriage in the formation and if I recall correctly there is also one of the same train with a Thompson BG. The Caledonian was mostly Mark I on its introduction apart from the kitchen car and BFK.

 

46257_RoyalScot_Crewe by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

46257_Shap_RoyalScot_1955 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

44828_Thames-Clyde_Beauchief by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

46245_Hartford_Caledonian_1958 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[robertcwp]

Hello Tony

 

The "rules" governing the use of the roundel was supposed to be for named trains and other important expresses. My observation of photos of the maroon coaching stock period suggest that the LMR carriage works misread the rules and slapped them on willy nilly as more coaches in LMR trains seem to carry them than the other regions.

The LMR certainly seemed to be the most prolific user of the emblem. I wonder if it was because it made the stock look more LMS like as the LMS had also used its own roundel.

[Headstock]

I recall that one of the recommendations of the Harrow and Wealdstone accident report was that LM stock, if possible, should be marshaled with a protective head or rear of carriages/bogie vans equipped with Pullman gangways and buffing gear. I don't know what the outcome of this was but it is noticeable that quite a few ex LNER carriages were taken into LM booked stock. Ironic, when the LMS were very critical of the trussing arrangements on LNER stock, yet their own was more vunerable to telescoping during a collision. Both companies carriages were, of course, death traps in the event of fire. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Headstock

[manna]

G'day Gents

 

Noticed 60055, gets everywhere.

 

manna (AKA Terry)

[coachmann]

Plenty of them were mostly Mark I by the late 1950s, some much earlier than that, such as the Royal Scot. The gangway issues diminished as more Class A stock was fitted with gangway adaptors. In the early days of the BR Standard stock it was a real problem. There is a published photo of the Royal Scot with a Bulleid carriage in the formation and if I recall correctly there is also one of the same train with a Thompson BG. The Caledonian was mostly Mark I on its introduction apart from the kitchen car and BFK.

 

46257_RoyalScot_Crewe by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

46257_Shap_RoyalScot_1955 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

44828_Thames-Clyde_Beauchief by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

46245_Hartford_Caledonian_1958 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Youre teaching granny to suck eggs pal. A few prestige trains do not make a London Midland Region!

[Headstock]

I think that almost everybody preferred their own railway's carriages to the MK1 designs, I even recall an article by railway staff bemoaning the inferiority of the MK1 BG in comparison to the LNER designs.

[grob1234]

Thank you all for posting those lovely old colour images.

[Tony Wright]

Plenty of them were mostly Mark I by the late 1950s, some much earlier than that, such as the Royal Scot. The gangway issues diminished as more Class A stock was fitted with gangway adaptors. In the early days of the BR Standard stock it was a real problem. There is a published photo of the Royal Scot with a Bulleid carriage in the formation and if I recall correctly there is also one of the same train with a Thompson BG. The Caledonian was mostly Mark I on its introduction apart from the kitchen car and BFK.

 

46257_RoyalScot_Crewe by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

46257_Shap_RoyalScot_1955 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

44828_Thames-Clyde_Beauchief by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

46245_Hartford_Caledonian_1958 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Thanks for posting Robert. 

 

One point, concerning CITY OF SALFORD on the UP Royal Scot at Crewe: the loco is sporting discs to indicate its train. Is this because, like its sister 46256 (at the time), it's fitted with electric lighting and it was prone to failure? Such devices fitted to LNER locos certainly were. 

 

Though it's not me, I could have been standing next to the kid to the left, in exactly the same apparel. Jacket, short trousers, long socks, tie-up shoes and a Second World War army-surplus bag. Happy days indeed!

Edited April 12, 2017 by Tony Wright

[Headstock]

Thanks once more Robert,

 

You're quite right about the Carriage Working books being a statement of intent. They represent an 'ideal', but in the real world the services still have to be run, often with the nearest possible substitute. 

 

I've included some more images of 'mixed' ECML trains for comment, please. I think this is where (on a personal level) a thread like Wright Writes is of great value. Not because of my involvement - I don't mean that - but because so much invaluable expertise is instantly on tap. Putting together this (these) books for Booklaw is proving extremely interesting (if puzzling and time-consuming) and the huge help from Daddyman and the likes of yourself (and Mark) has made it possible for my being able to do this. David Jenkinson once observed of Keith Pirt 'Brilliant photographer, but useless at writing captions'. I can understand his point of view. There are various notes as to when locos were built/rebuilt/named/renamed/repainted/scrapped, etc, all of which can be gleaned from the RCTS or Yeadon. Yet, nothing on locations, dates or workings. I'm certainly not going to write captions where all I've done is open the RCTS or Yeadon. The books have to be much more than that to have any worth in my view. 

 

It's also extremely interesting (at least to me) where the prototype pictures can be linked to model-making - once more, Wright Writes joins the two, so thanks to all who contribute in this manner. 

 

Anyway, some more interesting trains..............

 

E540.jpg

 

A non-stop at Retford around 1959. Note the two Thompson pressure-ventilated cars in this set. 

 

E514.jpg

 

Gresley all-door and end-door stock in this set at Eaton Wood, which includes a Kitchen Car. Again, 1959?

 

E1157.jpg

 

An express at Red Hall (Hatfield) includes some ex-LMS cars. Note the leading Mk. 1, carrying the BR roundel suggesting work in a more prestigious diagram (what's that chalked or painted on its side?). A Saturday working? 

 

E1127.jpg

 

Stoke in 1962, with a Thompson RSO carrying the BR roundel.

 

E1371.jpg

 

Probably taken on the same day as the above (a Saturday), with an A3 in charge of a rake of mainly ex-LMS cars. There appear to be one or two Mk.1s at the rear. 

 

E1432.jpg

 

A more uniform Mk.1 rake at Ganwick in 1962 (though two carmine/cream cars are still there). I've never seen an A3 with a blue-backed nameplate before (SINGAPORE). This rake could well return north behind a Deltic, so running C/C stock is legitimate behind an EE Type 5. 

 

E513.jpg

 

Leaving Grantham, an Up express is seen in 1961/'62 - note wing deflectors on WOOLWINDER and electrification warning flashes. The leading car is a Four-Compt Gresley Brake Third, with turnbuckle underframe. 

 

E970.jpg

 

Stoke, again in 1962, this time a Down train. On this occasion, the leading car is also a Four-Comp Gresley Brake Third, but this time it's on angle trussing. 

 

Gresley 4 Compt Brake Third 01.jpg

 

Gresley 4 Compt Brake Third 02.jpg

 

Mention of a Gresley Four-Compt Brake Third leads me on to this latest car I've completed. It's the usual mix of Hornby donor and MJT replacement sides. Folk might recall I did several of such conversions for Gilbert Barnatt, and I've done even more for myself (of all diagrams). It's a shame that Hornby's Gresleys as supplied cannot be used (at least as far as I'm concerned), but they do make useful donors. 

 

Out of interest, the lining is Cambridge Custom Transfers on one side and Replica on the other (I forget which). This is much finer than other transfer alternatives, even though (because of physical limitations) it cannot be applied to the central beading (as it should be), but just beneath it. I thought I'd got it (and the numbers/lettering) absolutely dead straight, but the camera highlights my deficiencies. It is, in my defence, like every carriage I make/paint, a 'layout carriage' - nothing more.

 

The dates and locations of the prototype locations are my conclusions/suppositions. If any are clearly wrong, then will folk please let me know. Any other comments and observations will be gratefully received. 

 

My thanks in anticipation. 

 

Tony,

 

is there any significance in the predominance of A3 class locomotives in the photographs. Is it the nature of Saturdays special workings, the adoption of the Kylchap blastpipe or just a selection of a particular class of locomotive for the book?

[ArthurK]

i pent a couple of hours at Sandy in 1962. All the passenger trains were hauled by A3s, not an A4 or A1 to be seen. I did see an A4 i the cutting as I was leaving Sandy station. Never did find out which one it was.

 

Here is one of the A3s at Everton crossing just north of Sandy.

 

 

ArthurK

Edited April 12, 2017 by ArthurK

[robertcwp]

Youre teaching granny to suck eggs pal. A few prestige trains do not make a London Midland Region!

Please don't patronise me in that manner.

 

Your earlier comment referred to "important expresses on the LMR were formed of ex. LMS coaches" - please tell me why the Royal Scot, Thames-Clyde Express and Caledonian were not important expresses.

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

is there any significance in the predominance of A3 class locomotives in the photographs. Is it the nature of Saturdays special workings, the adoption of the Kylchap blastpipe or just a selection of a particular class of locomotive for the book?

Andrew,

 

It might well be that A3s monopolised the Saturday workings, as indicated by Arthur. 

 

The reason for the preponderance of Gresley's non-streamlined Pacifics is that A3s will form the subject of my second book for Booklaw, and I have many pictures of them to comment on. The first one (scheduled for release in the autumn) concerns locomotives (of all classes) in detail. I've had a huge amount of assistance in this from Daddyman (thanks David).The A3 book might have been first, but another book on the class has recently appeared.

 

I showed many of the A3 pictures today as part of my giving a talk to Grantham Railwaymen's Club (actually retired members). I learned as much as I 'taught', and the information will make the captions much more informative. For instance, did you know that in the evenings a set of carriages was propelled from the carriage sidings at Grantham by the train engine (an A3), taking the Nottingham road. Once clear of the points, it then ran (forwards) into the Up main platform, before departing on a Grantham-Kings Cross service. The stock was extremely mixed. Keith Pirt had taken a picture of the reversal and I was bamboozled as to its explanation. I now know.

 

The problem is (at least as far as finding out these sort of things) is that most of the members in my audience are really getting on. First-hand knowledge (of getting on for 60 years ago) means that has to be the case.

 

My thanks to those I gave a talk to. They've made the captions much more accurate.    

[robertcwp]

Thanks for posting Robert. 

 

One point, concerning CITY OF SALFORD on the UP Royal Scot at Crewe: the loco is sporting discs to indicate its train. Is this because, like its sister 46256 (at the time), it's fitted with electric lighting and it was prone to failure? Such devices fitted to LNER locos certainly were. 

 

Though it's not me, I could have been standing next to the kid to the left, in exactly the same apparel. Jacket, short trousers, long socks, tie-up shoes and a Second World War army-surplus bag. Happy days indeed!

The LMR's answer to the Steve Banks Oracle of All Things LNER might be better placed to comment than me but, coming from a position of ignorance, my wild stab is that with electric lamps the headcode would not be visible easily in daylight so some other form of identification was required, either by putting an oil lamp on top of the electric lamp or by using discs.

 

What happened with regard to LNER-design engines with electric lights?

[glo41f]

Thanks for the picture of the Caledonian with its attendant maroon stock. This triggered memories of the Dublo "City of London|"  which I wanted so much when it was released. I think it was over £7 which was way beyond my means then. The Binns Road publicity machine would have loved this picture. 

 

Memo to self to get a Princess Coronation!

 

Happy days in retrospect.

 

Martin Long

[Tony Wright]

The LMR's answer to the Steve Banks Oracle of All Things LNER might be better placed to comment than me but, coming from a position of ignorance, my wild stab is that with electric lamps the headcode would not be visible easily in daylight so some other form of identification was required, either by putting an oil lamp on top of the electric lamp or by using discs.

 

What happened with regard to LNER-design engines with electric lights?

Electric (train identification) lamps first appeared on some of Thompson's Pacifics (as far as I'm aware) and they were topped off by discs as well (Thompson's reasoning was that oil lamps were too-frequently 'abused' and expensive to replace). His A2/1s (when new from Darlington) immediately fell foul of the LMS signalmen, who refused to let the locos by when they ran into Leeds (LMS 'boxes in City Station), because they were not displaying 'proper' lamps. Not only that, the dynamo providing power, was fixed on a stub axle to the second bogie wheel on the nearside. This was OK in forwards, but frequently became unscrewed in reverse and fell off. 

 

Peppercorn perpetuated electric lighting on his A1s, A2s and K1s, this time with a steam generator (I think it was steam-driven) adjacent to the offside smokebox side. Though the lamps were often illuminated (at night), they always carried oil lamps or discs on top, denoting the train's status. In time, the lenses (particularly those on the front platform) were smashed and the systems were abandoned. Despite Yeadon telling us that the K1s kept their electric lighting throughout their lives, a few had it removed. In time, most of the A1s and A2s had it removed or it was not used. The way to tell is the removal of the conduit to the top bracket, the removal of the conduit alongside the offside of the firebox, the removal of the generator behind the offside smoke deflector and the removal of the lamps (on the loco and the tender). The tall lamp brackets then remained, with just a handle on the sides of those above each buffer. 

 

I'll need to check to see if every Thompson or Peppercorn Pacific got electric lights when built (not every one, from memory), but it was certainly out of use towards the end of the locos' lives. 

 

I assume the same reasons for its removal were so in the case of 46256/7? 

Edited April 12, 2017 by Tony Wright

[asmay2002]

One point, concerning CITY OF SALFORD on the UP Royal Scot at Crewe: the loco is sporting discs to indicate its train. Is this because, like its sister 46256 (at the time), it's fitted with electric lighting and it was prone to failure? Such devices fitted to LNER locos certainly were.

Electric lighting was only turned on when it was dark so you needed the discs to see what the headcode was (in the same way that unlit oil lamps were used). 

[robertcwp]

I think that almost everybody preferred their own railway's carriages to the MK1 designs, I even recall an article by railway staff bemoaning the inferiority of the MK1 BG in comparison to the LNER designs.

Yes, and there were probably good reasons too, including that the regions largely tried to carry on as though Nationalisation hadn't happened. On ex-LNER lines, Gresley bogies gave a much better ride. The early Standard open thirds had very narrow seats which were so unpopular that the ER took them off of expresses and restored Gresley open thirds. On the SR, Bulleid and Maunsell stock had smaller van areas which were better suited to trains with lots of brakes, as was common on the SR. The LMR and WR would both have had the gangway issue to deal with, plus their 'own' designs probably rode better (not so sure about the WR given the BR bogie was based on a GWR design). Lots of 'Company' stock was built in the period around and just after Nationalisation so was on many of the principal expresses in early BR days. The BR Standard stock was quite slow to appear after the initial flurry due to government restrictions on the supply of steel plate in 1952-3 (which also forced a 9-month hiatus in 4 EPB construction at Eastleigh). On the SR, the Bournemouth line had its then-new Bulleid dining sets. The 'Royal Wessex' was a BR Standard train but reverted to Bulleid stock I believe to increase capacity (back to the brake van size issue?). On the WR the 'Bristolian' reverted from being mainly BR Standard to Hawksworth (apart from Collett buffet) in the mid-1950s, before going back to Standard stock when chocolate and cream returned. And to cap it all, the early Standards were rust-buckets and not well built. Standards only came to dominate the principal WR expresses from around 1956 when chocolate and cream returned and seem to have become more prevalent on front rank services on other regions too at around the same time. Even then, some prestige trains, notably 'The Elizabethan', remained largely free of Standard stock (aside from the Aberdeen through carriages) until 1960 or thereabouts.

[ROY@34F]

Andrew,

 

It might well be that A3s monopolised the Saturday workings, as indicated by Arthur. 

 

The reason for the preponderance of Gresley's non-streamlined Pacifics is that A3s will form the subject of my second book for Booklaw, and I have many pictures of them to comment on. The first one (scheduled for release in the autumn) concerns locomotives (of all classes) in detail. I've had a huge amount of assistance in this from Daddyman (thanks David).The A3 book might have been first, but another book on the class has recently appeared.

 

I showed many of the A3 pictures today as part of my giving a talk to Grantham Railwaymen's Club (actually retired members). I learned as much as I 'taught', and the information will make the captions much more informative. For instance, did you know that in the evenings a set of carriages was propelled from the carriage sidings at Grantham by the train engine (an A3), taking the Nottingham road. Once clear of the points, it then ran (forwards) into the Up main platform, before departing on a Grantham-Kings Cross service. The stock was extremely mixed. Keith Pirt had taken a picture of the reversal and I was bamboozled as to its explanation. I now know.

 

The problem is (at least as far as finding out these sort of things) is that most of the members in my audience are really getting on. First-hand knowledge (of getting on for 60 years ago) means that has to be the case.

 

My thanks to those I gave a talk to. They've made the captions much more accurate.    

 

 

That train reversal you refer to Tony, you also spotted that there was only one headlamp over the right buffer. I reckon it may be that the other lamp is over the left tender buffer , the fireman thinking he'll save his legs a bit by dealing with it when stopped in the platform when its all nice and level going . Another example of slight rule bending that was often done ? Certainly feasible I think .

 

Thanks for your entertaining presentation at the Grantham get together again . I hope you're invited next time.

 

Regards Roy.

[micklner]

Electric (train identification) lamps first appeared on some of Thompson's Pacifics (as far as I'm aware) and they were topped off by discs as well (Thompson's reasoning was that oil lamps were too-frequently 'abused' and expensive to replace). His A2/1s (when new from Darlington) immediately fell foul of the LMS signalmen, who refused to let the locos by when they ran into Leeds (LMS 'boxes in City Station), because they were not displaying 'proper' lamps. Not only that, the dynamo providing power, was fixed on a stub axle to the second bogie wheel on the nearside. This was OK in forwards, but frequently became unscrewed in reverse and fell off. 

 

Peppercorn perpetuated electric lighting on his A1s, A2s and K1s, this time with a steam generator (I think it was steam-driven) adjacent to the offside smokebox side. Though the lamps were often illuminated (at night), they always carried oil lamps or discs on top, denoting the train's status. In time, the lenses (particularly those on the front platform) were smashed and the systems were abandoned. Despite Yeadon telling us that the K1s kept their electric lighting throughout their lives, a few had it removed. In time, most of the A1s and A2s had it removed or it was not used. The way to tell is the removal of the conduit to the top bracket, the removal of the conduit alongside the offside of the firebox, the removal of the generator behind the offside smoke deflector and the removal of the lamps (on the loco and the tender). The tall lamp brackets then remained, with just a handle on the sides of those above each buffer. 

 

I'll need to check to see if every Thompson or Peppercorn Pacific got electric lights when built (not every one, from memory), but it was certainly out of use towards the end of the locos' lives. 

 

I assume the same reasons for its removal were so in the case of 46256/7? 

 

Great Northern had electric lighting and discs as below, when first built. Some B1's were also fitted with electric lighting using a Stones generator, as said earlier fixed on the footplate.

 

[Headstock]

Andrew,

 

It might well be that A3s monopolised the Saturday workings, as indicated by Arthur. 

 

The reason for the preponderance of Gresley's non-streamlined Pacifics is that A3s will form the subject of my second book for Booklaw, and I have many pictures of them to comment on. The first one (scheduled for release in the autumn) concerns locomotives (of all classes) in detail. I've had a huge amount of assistance in this from Daddyman (thanks David).The A3 book might have been first, but another book on the class has recently appeared.

 

I showed many of the A3 pictures today as part of my giving a talk to Grantham Railwaymen's Club (actually retired members). I learned as much as I 'taught', and the information will make the captions much more informative. For instance, did you know that in the evenings a set of carriages was propelled from the carriage sidings at Grantham by the train engine (an A3), taking the Nottingham road. Once clear of the points, it then ran (forwards) into the Up main platform, before departing on a Grantham-Kings Cross service. The stock was extremely mixed. Keith Pirt had taken a picture of the reversal and I was bamboozled as to its explanation. I now know.

 

The problem is (at least as far as finding out these sort of things) is that most of the members in my audience are really getting on. First-hand knowledge (of getting on for 60 years ago) means that has to be the case.

 

My thanks to those I gave a talk to. They've made the captions much more accurate.    

 

Thanks for the information, I think in one of P N Townends books (possibly 'Top Shed') he mentions that on summer Saturdays the cupboard would often be bare, with any loco begged, borrowed, or stolen to keep the services running. Hence the infamous ninety miles per hour runs with the 9F's. I've never seen a photo of a 9F on an East coast express though I have plenty of examples on GC summer Saturday holiday express trains. With regard to interesting ECS movements, a not dissimilar picture has been recorded of movements between New Basford carriage sidings and Nottingham Victoria, not usual with A3 Pacifics however. It's all fascinating stuff and important that the information is being recorded.

[Headstock]

Yes, and there were probably good reasons too, including that the regions largely tried to carry on as though Nationalisation hadn't happened. On ex-LNER lines, Gresley bogies gave a much better ride. The early Standard open thirds had very narrow seats which were so unpopular that the ER took them off of expresses and restored Gresley open thirds. On the SR, Bulleid and Maunsell stock had smaller van areas which were better suited to trains with lots of brakes, as was common on the SR. The LMR and WR would both have had the gangway issue to deal with, plus their 'own' designs probably rode better (not so sure about the WR given the BR bogie was based on a GWR design). Lots of 'Company' stock was built in the period around and just after Nationalisation so was on many of the principal expresses in early BR days. The BR Standard stock was quite slow to appear after the initial flurry due to government restrictions on the supply of steel plate in 1952-3 (which also forced a 9-month hiatus in 4 EPB construction at Eastleigh). On the SR, the Bournemouth line had its then-new Bulleid dining sets. The 'Royal Wessex' was a BR Standard train but reverted to Bulleid stock I believe to increase capacity (back to the brake van size issue?). On the WR the 'Bristolian' reverted from being mainly BR Standard to Hawksworth (apart from Collett buffet) in the mid-1950s, before going back to Standard stock when chocolate and cream returned. And to cap it all, the early Standards were rust-buckets and not well built. Standards only came to dominate the principal WR expresses from around 1956 when chocolate and cream returned and seem to have become more prevalent on front rank services on other regions too at around the same time. Even then, some prestige trains, notably 'The Elizabethan', remained largely free of Standard stock (aside from the Aberdeen through carriages) until 1960 or thereabouts.

 

Evening Robert,

 

unfortunately, the article doesn't record what exactly was the beef with the Mk1 BG. However, the staff ( Kings Cross) involved were concerned with the loading and unloading of such NPC's. It must relate to something specific about that activity being more user-friendly on the LNER version. I would love to know more about it.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Headstock

[Headstock]

Electric (train identification) lamps first appeared on some of Thompson's Pacifics (as far as I'm aware) and they were topped off by discs as well (Thompson's reasoning was that oil lamps were too-frequently 'abused' and expensive to replace). His A2/1s (when new from Darlington) immediately fell foul of the LMS signalmen, who refused to let the locos by when they ran into Leeds (LMS 'boxes in City Station), because they were not displaying 'proper' lamps. Not only that, the dynamo providing power, was fixed on a stub axle to the second bogie wheel on the nearside. This was OK in forwards, but frequently became unscrewed in reverse and fell off. 

 

Peppercorn perpetuated electric lighting on his A1s, A2s and K1s, this time with a steam generator (I think it was steam-driven) adjacent to the offside smokebox side. Though the lamps were often illuminated (at night), they always carried oil lamps or discs on top, denoting the train's status. In time, the lenses (particularly those on the front platform) were smashed and the systems were abandoned. Despite Yeadon telling us that the K1s kept their electric lighting throughout their lives, a few had it removed. In time, most of the A1s and A2s had it removed or it was not used. The way to tell is the removal of the conduit to the top bracket, the removal of the conduit alongside the offside of the firebox, the removal of the generator behind the offside smoke deflector and the removal of the lamps (on the loco and the tender). The tall lamp brackets then remained, with just a handle on the sides of those above each buffer. 

 

I'll need to check to see if every Thompson or Peppercorn Pacific got electric lights when built (not every one, from memory), but it was certainly out of use towards the end of the locos' lives. 

 

I assume the same reasons for its removal were so in the case of 46256/7? 

 

The LM did a similar thing to a B1 locomotive when Thompson was present, apparently, he was furious, much to the amusement of his colleagues who thought the fixed flip discs a rather silly idea. They were eventually abandoned as they had a tendency to fall down or blow upwards while in service, thus altering the train designation at random while en route.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Headstock