GWR broad gauge conversion

[The Stationmaster]

19 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I get the impression that bridge rail wasn't fancied for narrow gauge, at least for running lines. Flat-bottom section seemed, if not widespread, common as a sort of interim measure before bullhead became properly established:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/440-pics/3355-at-bath.jpg

 

 

Around the time of the gauge conversions the GWR definitely moved to a heavier (weight per yard rail) but I don't know what section it was.

[melmerby]

In one of my books it says the last trains of all to run on broad gauge track were the workmen's trains which were used for the conversion and returned to Swindon after the conversion.

However I am finding it difficult to envisage that as the men were spread out over the remaining broad tracks and working simultaneously.

Surely they would end up with the trains stranded as all remaining "Broad Only" track was converted to "Narrow Only" that weekend, AFAIK no third rails were added.

I have seen a picture showing the workers slewing a former broad track over to narrow after the transverse timbers had been cut.

[pb_devon]

22 hours ago, russ p said:

Is there any evidence of mixed gauge sleepered track ever existed?

This image is dated 28 April 1896 and is the branch from Keyham Junction to Devonport Dockyard, about where the current exchange sidings are. Notable is the date some 4 years after the main-line change-over. I guess there was no urgency at such locations.

[Trog]

I was told but never saw for myself that there were buffer stops at Warwick Road? sidings on the West London Line that showed signs of conversion from Broad Gauge still in situ in the 1980's.

[Nick Holliday]

On 12 February 2019 at 12:08, russ p said:

Is there any evidence of mixed gauge sleepered track ever existed?

In OPC's Great Western Broad Gauge Album there are a number of views of cross sleepered track. One, at Exminster taken in 1891 is purely broad gauge, but others at Weston Junction, Marazion in 1867, Redruth in 1866 and Bristol Temple Meads in 1875 show mixed gauge, cross sleepered track.

On 12 February 2019 at 12:11, Miss Prism said:

 

I get the impression that bridge rail wasn't fancied for narrow gauge, at least for running lines. Flat-bottom section seemed, if not widespread, common as a sort of interim measure before bullhead became properly established:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/440-pics/3355-at-bath.jpg

 

 

I'd hesitate to say that the photo at Bath actually shows flat-bottom rail, as there are several areas where it is clear there are chairs, and not in locations that a FB point would have them, which is rather suggestive of bullhead rail. The ballast is unusually high, which obscures much of the rails' depth. I'm curious as to why there would be an interim period, since bullhead rail had been the norm for most other railways for many years, and I suspect was used on the GWR's standard gauge tracks, but it is interesting that the graveyard at Swindon was laid out with flat-bottom rail on cross sleepers.

[MarshLane]

On 12/02/2019 at 16:11, melmerby said:

In one of my books it says the last trains of all to run on broad gauge track were the workmen's trains which were used for the conversion and returned to Swindon after the conversion.

However I am finding it difficult to envisage that as the men were spread out over the remaining broad tracks and working simultaneously.

Surely they would end up with the trains stranded as all remaining "Broad Only" track was converted to "Narrow Only" that weekend, AFAIK no third rails were added.

I have seen a picture showing the workers slewing a former broad track over to narrow after the transverse timbers had been cut.

 

Obviously some broad gauge track remained all over the network. Fascinating couple of images on the Historic England website, showing Slough in 1833, still with the Broad Gauge in place.

Slough (Historic England)

Slough Station (Historic England)

[melmerby]

31 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Obviously some broad gauge track remained all over the network. Fascinating couple of images on the Historic England website, showing Slough in 1833, still with the Broad Gauge in place.

Slough (Historic England)

Slough Station (Historic England)

What was being converted was broad only and after the conversion was standard only.

The mixed gauge track was inconsequential to start with.

 

I assume that the quote I posted was materially wrong as I suspect they were transported out on broad gauge trains (which were the only ones which could reach all of the broad gauge track) which then returned to Swindon and after the conversion standard gauge trains were dispatched to retrieve the work gangs as now only standard gauge trains could reach all the network.

 

I like the siding with the standard gauge on baulk road track.

[drduncan]

On 12/02/2019 at 12:08, russ p said:

Is there any evidence of mixed gauge sleepered track ever existed?

I believe the west Cornwall (Truro to Penzance) was cross sleepers and mixed gauge.  I think there is a picture of such at lelant on the st ives branch ( which was BG only from that point)

Duncan

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

Obviously some broad gauge track remained all over the network. Fascinating couple of images on the Historic England website, showing Slough in 1833, still with the Broad Gauge in place.

Slough (Historic England)

 

That picture can be dated reasonably accurately as the Down West Curve is already narrow gauge and the Up West Curve still has its third rail in place for the broad gauge.  The curve was narrowed in June 1883  (having been Mixed Gauge since March 1862) so the picture can be no earlier than that month and probably not much later with the third rail on the Up West Curve (aka Bath Road Curve) still in situ when the photo was taken.   The Mixed Gauge on the Main Lines of course remained right up to the end in 1892 although by then very few services were still running on the Broad Gauge.

 

The Relief Lines over to the left were Narrow Gauge from time of their construction being extended westwards from Slough with the work commencing in 1879. 

 

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

What was being converted was broad only and after the conversion was standard only.

The mixed gauge track was inconsequential to start with.

 

I assume that the quote I posted was materially wrong as I suspect they were transported out on broad gauge trains (which were the only ones which could reach all of the broad gauge track) which then returned to Swindon and after the conversion standard gauge trains were dispatched to retrieve the work gangs as now only standard gauge trains could reach all the network.

 

I like the siding with the standard gauge on baulk road track.

Some good few years back somebody published a photo copy of the staff train working notice for the final narrowing weekend in 1892.   The trains conveying staff, c.3,000 men in all ran on Thursday 19 May.  Most of the incoming trains were obviously narrow gauge as they came from all over the GWR network including South Wales and the West Midlands where the broad gauge had gone some time previously however one train, from Taunton, ran as broad gauge throughout to Kingswear.   The seven Narrow Gauge trains (Note *) all terminated at Exeter with their passengers transferring there to Broad Gauge trains to carry them forward to their various destinations  while six of the empty stocks were worked away to Weston-Super-Mare.  The men were returned to their home stations on Tuesday 24 May starting off at about 07.00.  Special empty trains were worked down from Bristol (1) and Weston-Super-Mare (6) on the previous day to collect them in this case working right through to the various collection points right through to Falmouth.

Note * -  the seven narrow gauge trains ran, in order of arrival time at Exeter,  from Chester, New Milford,  Bristol,  Crewe, Paddington, Weymouth, and Tondu 

 

Remaining Broad Gauge stock was worked out of the area in accordance with a special programme of trains from the Friday with the final train, from Penzance, leaving Plymouth for Exeter at 01.10 on Saturday booked to arrive in Exeter at 04.00.  Of course various items of stock, and a block on accepting certain types of traffic, had been gradually applied in the days immediately preceding the final trains run on the Friday.   Empty Narrow Gauge stock was worked in according to its own programmes - three trains running to Plymouth over the L&SWR route while in Cornwall some NG stock was moved in advance on Crocodile wagons to Carn Brea yard

 

On a personal note although I knew one of my maternal great grandfathers the other had died just over 20 years before I was born - a pity in some respects as it was more than likely that he had taken part in the great task over narrowing the gauge as the gang of which he was a member appears to have been one of those from across the GWR empire that was shipped down to the West of England for that task.

[russ p]

Going slightly off topic yesterday I was in the front of a 37 from reading to Acton even today there are wide six foots which I assume was because it was originally broad gauge

But what a mess that new overhead line system is! I know they wanted it to be robust but is SO intrusive , but a conductor rail suspended on massive I section girders would have been n less so.

What a relief it was when you come under the original Heathrow OLE, I'm surprised regular drivers on the GW don't suffer from a permanent headache or maybe they do

[MarshLane]

A quick apology - I got my dates mixed up with the above links and despite typing 1833, meant to type 1883!  But however I was thinking the final weekend was 1882, not 1892, and hence the picture shows the broad gauge still down after the end!  Apologies to all - off to sit in a darkened room till my sanity recovers!

 

Rich

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That picture can be dated reasonably accurately as the Down West Curve is already narrow gauge and the Up West Curve still has its third rail in place for the broad gauge.  The curve was narrowed in June 1883  (having been Mixed Gauge since March 1862) so the picture can be no earlier than that month and probably not much later with the third rail on the Up West Curve (aka Bath Road Curve) still in situ when the photo was taken.   The Mixed Gauge on the Main Lines of course remained right up to the end in 1892 although by then very few services were still running on the Broad Gauge. 

The broad gauge rails would have remained for some distance round the Up West Curve for as long as there was broad gauge on the Up Main itself, since it was required as a precaution against a BG train being wrongly routed.

 

Jim 

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, russ p said:

Going slightly off topic yesterday I was in the front of a 37 from reading to Acton even today there are wide six foots which I assume was because it was originally broad gauge

But what a mess that new overhead line system is! I know they wanted it to be robust but is SO intrusive , but a conductor rail suspended on massive I section girders would have been n less so.

What a relief it was when you come under the original Heathrow OLE, I'm surprised regular drivers on the GW don't suffer from a permanent headache or maybe they do

There are very wide six foots at some of the stations where the spacing of the platforms dates from the Broad Gauge era although it varies between the Mains and Reliefs depending on which side the second pair of running lines was added in the 1870s/80 & 90s.  In one or two places 'out in the country' you will find 'six foots' which are wider than the '10 foots' between the Mains and Reliefs - e.g Tilehurst East Jcn on the Main Lines side.

 

The view below at Tilehurst shows where the Broad Gauge existed on the Main Lines side but the Reliefs were built as Narrow Gauge so the platform faces are closer together to the standard dimension, as you can see the wide six foot on the Mains extends into Tilehurst East Jcn with the first crossover of the ladder visible on the right.

 

 

The really heavy overhead structures are the ones carrying the tensioning unitt venture that ways, some of the others are relatively lighter and much smaller section while at some places (e/g Didcot)  they look big enough to support a large building  - oddly there are plenty like that east of Portobello Jcn although you presumably didn't venture that way.  The catenary fixings themselves are far simpler on the new system with only a single register arm carrrying both the contact and catenary wires.  The same type of structures of course also been erected in places in the inner area of the GEML as replacement