Colin parks Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Colin, which blades and handles (presumably Swann-Morton) do you use for the fine work? I ask because the recommended handle/blades for cutting coach sides in Jenkinson's plasticard coaches book is the Swann-Morton metal handle with the two knurled knobs which uses a slightly stiffer blade than the SM 'surgical' type (3s and 4s) which are more bendy (and breakable!). Very fine work there! I tried it once following an article by ERH (Teddy) Francis in a 70s MRC on plasticard GW coaches if a little unsuccessfully! I tried it in 7mm with better success. I still have the sides somewhere! Hi Re6/6, I am using exactly the same type of Swann-Morton handle and blades as David Jenkinson used: brass craft knife handle with the knurled knobs and No.1 blades. DJ used to sharpen his blades on a stone to keep them sharp. I tend to just discard them after about 2-4hrs of (continuous) cutting. Perhaps things have changed or DJ was better at it, but the current S-M blades can't be honed. Furthermore I keep breaking the very fine tip od the blade. Once that is gone, there is no hope of using it for the kind of fine work you see here. Unlike DJ, who cut a diagonal across the corner and filed it round, I use the tip of the blade to cut the radiused corners of the windows - as described in a previous post. I do find that even the no.1 blades bend a little, so much so that there can be a risk of cutting a slightly curved line. It is all a matter of touch. With 10 thou. styrene sheet I am having to be much more gentle. I did used to use a Stanley knife blade (the common or garden sort, held between the fingers (ouch!) for this sort of scratch-building lark, but although nice and rigid, they tended to rag the window corners. I was disappointed with the finish on the 2 HAL (orignal type) because of this and changed to the present knife for that reason. You will be seeing some of your Kirk bogie mouldings later on in the build! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Colin. I've just got round to measuring "VE"'s 4-SUB drawings in the MRC Planbook. The rain water strips/angles are drawn at 30mm.(Scale 7'-6") apart, approx. in line with the outer edges of the cab's front windows. I should've referred to this book when the earlier build question of the 'original' 2-HAL's domed ends arose. My first signs of 'Alcoholic Amnesia', perhaps ? Cheers, Ceptic. Hi Ceptic, Thanks for that dimension. The plans I have show them as being closer - although I am measuring off a 2mm plan view for this. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi Re6/6, I am using exactly the same type of Swann-Morton handle and blades as David Jenkinson used: brass craft knife handle with the knurled knobs and No.1 blades. DJ used to sharpen his blades on a stone to keep them sharp. I tend to just discard them after about 2-4hrs of (continuous) cutting. Perhaps things have changed or DJ was better at it, but the current S-M blades can't be honed. Furthermore I keep breaking the very fine tip od the blade. Once that is gone, there is no hope of using it for the kind of fine work you see here. Unlike DJ, who cut a diagonal across the corner and filed it round, I use the tip of the blade to cut the radiused corners of the windows - as described in a previous post. I do find that even the no.1 blades bend a little, so much so that there can be a risk of cutting a slightly curved line. It is all a matter of touch. With 10 thou. styrene sheet I am having to be much more gentle. I did used to use a Stanley knife blade (the common or garden sort, held between the fingers (ouch!) for this sort of scratch-building lark, but although nice and rigid, they tended to rag the window corners. I was disappointed with the finish on the 2 HAL (orignal type) because of this and changed to the present knife for that reason. You will be seeing some of your Kirk bogie mouldings later on in the build! Colin Edit: How embarassing! it was Number6 who sent the bogies to me! Sorry Re6/6 for the confusion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Things were going too well - I just knew it. The cutting of door top & droplights was progressing well. One side was nearly finished when I thought I'd just double check the flickr photo of a trailer coach to see the exact shape of the driver's door droplight frame. Oh dear. The drawing I had been using (and not the one in the 'book') shows, incorrectly, drivers' doors drawn identically to the 1st series 2 HALs. I hadn't spotted this or even checked when marking out. The only remedy was to cut out all four incorrectly fenestrated doors and insert new ones with the correct window shape. Seee photo below: There has been some swearing. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi Colin. In Holland at mo but have built a tin hal and have a bit of info plus a side on shot of the roof of a d/t. Will post again on Mon or Tuesday Cheers Dave Smith Hi Colin. As promised, I've now found my Tin Hal pics. Only parts of a Driving Trailer I'm afraid. PM me at dave DOT copthorne AT btinternet DOT com. so I can send the full res images. ps Don't understand what has happened to the first two files but the originals are fine. Cheers Dave and all the best for your build. 4Cig is fantastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi Colin. As promised, I've now found my Tin Hal pics. Only parts of a Driving Trailer I'm afraid. PM me at dave DOT copthorne AT btinternet DOT com. so I can send the full res images. ps Don't understand what has happened to the first two files but the originals are fine. Cheers Dave and all the best for your build. 4Cig is fantastic. Thesew are better now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thesew are better now. Hi Dave, Absolutely super shots of the seemingly camera-shy Tin HAL! There is so much detail here that could not be guessed at. It appears that the 'First Class' window totems were only on the r/h window panes - pure BR (S) economy! Very clearly shown are the drivers doors, which I had got wrong on the first attempt. The doorless trailer coach gives a glimpse of the corridor side of the compartments. I note that the internal window panes are in the Bulleid style with rounded corners and the sliding doors have rectangular panes. Also discernable are the re-enforcing strips at the base of the sides between doors. The drawing I am using shows only one toilet water tank filler pipe, which seemed wrong and is - as can be seen from the excellent photo of the inner end. I am going to guess, that on the motor coach, the inner four compartments were 'No-Smoking', in the same format as the later Bulleid 2 HAPs Many thanks, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted October 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 23, 2012 Things were going too well - I just knew it. The cutting of door top & droplights was progressing well. One side was nearly finished when I thought I'd just double check the flickr photo of a trailer coach to see the exact shape of the driver's door droplight frame. Oh dear. The drawing I had been using (and not the one in the 'book') shows, incorrectly, drivers' doors drawn identically to the 1st series 2 HALs. I hadn't spotted this or even checked when marking out. The only remedy was to cut out all four incorrectly fenestrated doors and insert new ones with the correct window shape. Seee photo below: There has been some swearing. Colin Hi Colin Only some swearing, there will probably be some more to come before you've finished and if it's like most of my jobs modelling or otherwise a bit of blood too. Cheers SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi all. Is it me ?, or does the toilet window (fixed-light), in Dave's photos, look to be higher / taller than the compartment (side-light) ?. I did think this when looking at my post # 47 pic. but thought no more of it. What do you reckon ? Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Hi all. Is it me ?, or does the toilet window (fixed-light), in Dave's photos, look to be higher / taller than the compartment (side-light) ?. I did think this when looking at my post # 47 pic. but thought no more of it. What do you reckon ? Cheers. You are right Dave, the toilet window is taller. I hadn't spotted it, but it can be gauged from the yellow stripe. Taller I can do, but since the window in question has already been cut on the model, smaller would have been difficult! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 A little relaxing roof bodging after the rigors of window cutting: The roof former, as was mentioned before, has two more uses before being put back in the drawer. Firstly, with the roof firmly clamped in, each side of the roof is cut by running the knife blade flat along the top face of the former (with the extended sides removed). Once that is done, by sliding the male side of the former back slightly and re-clamping, the ends can be trimmed square. The roofs are cut under-length. As with all other units of this type that have been built using this method, the cab fronts and inner ends will fit on the front of the roof/sides. Hopefully Re6/6 can see the Swann-Morton craft knife clearly enough. It might be just a bit dainty for this sort of 'brutal' cutting. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 Hi Colin Only some swearing, there will probably be some more to come before you've finished and if it's like most of my jobs modelling or otherwise a bit of blood too. Cheers SS It's not modelling without blood. Last night I did this to my finger with a scalpel while looking for a slitting disc arbor. .http://img.photobuck...zpsacc56ba7.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 More work on the sides tonight All sides have now been jig-drilled for door handles bumps etc., scored for vertical door lines and cut to size, leaving them 1mm over-length for now. Attention has now turned to the inside bracing. This is the 'inside' of a motor coach. The cantrail level strip was added first, fitting snugly above the 10 thou. droplight pieces. Vertical strips of 1mm x 20 thou. have been added too. The side has been gently curved using fingers to manipulate it into shape after the solvent had vented off a bit. As soon as the curve was made, the side came to life with its distinctive 'Bulleid' shape. I shall proceed very carefully, adding narrow panels of 20 thou. strip between windows and underneath. Even as they are now, the sides are much stronger and do not flap about. This method may seem slow, but is quite relaxing to do. All four sides have got to this stage. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Hi Colin. As they say about a patient.... 'She's / Tin Hal's, coming along nicely' Painful to see someone else's finger 'on the pulse', albeit a little too close for comfort in EBD's case. It looks like that warranted more than your normal "OUCH" Out of interest, Colin, I'm guessing you heated the roofs / wooden formers, to maintain their elliptical profile ?..ISTR you doing this in a previous build. Did you use heating for the sides ?, or are you relying on the internal bracing (heated, or not) to maintain the side's curvature ? The reason for asking, is that I found it necessary to heat form my, thicker, Lam sides and reinforce / brace them with pre-rolled metal. Many Thanks for keeping us up to date, especially with your close-up photos. Much better than any magazine article. Frank. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted October 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2012 It's not modelling without blood. Last night I did this to my finger with a scalpel while looking for a slitting disc arbor. .http://img.photobuck...zpsacc56ba7.jpg Superglue is a wonderful thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Superglue is a wonderful thing Yes, although you can't drill a hole with it. And I think it would hurt a bit if i tried to use it as a plaster Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Hi Colin. As they say about a patient.... 'She's / Tin Hal's, coming along nicely' Painful to see someone else's finger 'on the pulse', albeit a little too close for comfort in EBD's case. It looks like that warranted more than your normal "OUCH" Out of interest, Colin, I'm guessing you heated the roofs / wooden formers, to maintain their elliptical profile ?..ISTR you doing this in a previous build. Did you use heating for the sides ?, or are you relying on the internal bracing (heated, or not) to maintain the side's curvature ? The reason for asking, is that I found it necessary to heat form my, thicker, Lam sides and reinforce / brace them with pre-rolled metal. Many Thanks for keeping us up to date, especially with your close-up photos. Much better than any magazine article. Frank. Hi Frank, Not much modelling to describe today as I have come down with a stomach bug. Re. roofs, they are 40 thou. Plastikard (in this case the real Slaters porduct)heated in the oven to about 200C and left for only about four to five minutes. The formers must be pre-heated or this method will not work. With the sides, I find that even 20 thou. sheet will stay in shape when rubbed from behind with a sutiable wooden handle. (This was described in the Bulleid 2 HAP topic.) I suppose the friction causes enough heat to produce the effect. Laminating 20 thou. sides with more 20 thou. behind has worked well up to now (2 x 2 HAPs, 2 HAL and 4 CIG, but I am getting on well with the present method. The inner parts of the sides are shorter than the outer bodyshell, so the assembly stays curved due to tension I suppose. laminating 10 + 20 + 10 thou. seems to produce a side that is both acceptably thin yet suprisingly rigid. Of course, all lamniating parts have to be pre-curved before contruction begins. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Yes, although you can't drill a hole with it. And I think it would hurt a bit if i tried to use it as a plaster Hi EBD, Although superglue was originally developed as a battle-field dressing, I'm not sure that putting it on an open wound would be advisable. I am wary of the 'cyano' part of its chemical analysis! Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted October 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2012 Hi EBD, Although superglue was originally developed as a battle-field dressing, I'm not sure that putting it on an open wound would be advisable. I am wary of the 'cyano' part of its chemical analysis! Colin Worked for me when I cut myself chopping up Lima DMU trailers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vin Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Hi Colin, These units are looking great but and it's good to see moulding of the plasticard. The temperature seems to me a bit high. Styrene melts at 240degrees C, but it's glass transition temperature (when it gets soft) is only 80 degrees C. At the higher temperatures there is the danger that the plastic will become brittle faster than the none heated side frames and it'll be a shame to ruin such an excellent model. Regards Vin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinWalsh Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Hi EBD, Although superglue was originally developed as a battle-field dressing, I'm not sure that putting it on an open wound would be advisable. I am wary of the 'cyano' part of its chemical analysis! Colin Off topic Alert !!!!!!! Superglue works wonders on cuts that aren't too ragged or too deep, yes it stings a little bit but it stops the blood flowing quickly and I've found that the wound heals quicker and doesn't have a large scab afterwards. (and if like me you have needle phobia it is great for holding flaps of skin together long enough to start healing) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Bus Driver Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi EBD, Although superglue was originally developed as a battle-field dressing, I'm not sure that putting it on an open wound would be advisable. I am wary of the 'cyano' part of its chemical analysis! Colin Lol indeed. I used to use that stuff when I worked in engineering. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Lol indeed. I used to use that stuff when I worked in engineering. They use it in hospitals. I managed to badly slice my thumb on the secateurs and went to get stiches. They said they dont stitch figers any more and proceeded to use steristrips and then ran superglue along the cut. The medical stuff is blue! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 Hi Colin, These units are looking great but and it's good to see moulding of the plasticard. The temperature seems to me a bit high. Styrene melts at 240degrees C, but it's glass transition temperature (when it gets soft) is only 80 degrees C. At the higher temperatures there is the danger that the plastic will become brittle faster than the none heated side frames and it'll be a shame to ruin such an excellent model. Regards Vin Hi Vin, Thanks for your advice re. styrene temperatures. I have experience of moulding in polystyrene and know the effect you describe. Do not worry though: I did say the oven was set to 200C, but am not sure how accurate the gauge is. Whatever the temperature, that was the air temp. in the oven, not that of the styrene itself - I didn't make it clear. (The moulds were pre-heated and scientifically tested, judged to be hot enough when just too hot to handle!) Without the pre-heating of the former, the outer edges of the styrene roof came to the 'softened' stage well enough. But on opening the mould, the centre of the roof had not heated sufficiently and the thing splayed flat. I did throw a few over-heated roofs away however, as after too much heat, the roof moudlings took on a wood-grain effect from the former - a sign that things had got too hot. It might all sound a bit idiosyncratic, but this is the fourth set of roofs made in this way, with no problems so far. I even made another set of four roofs while I was at it for the next project. All the best, Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted October 26, 2012 Author Share Posted October 26, 2012 They use it in hospitals. I managed to badly slice my thumb on the secateurs and went to get stiches. They said they dont stitch figers any more and proceeded to use steristrips and then ran superglue along the cut. The medical stuff is blue! Hi Paul, I note you say the medical glue is blue. I would not recommend the clear stuff for wounds for it might be a toxic form - as I said before. Colin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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