'Tin' HAL

[dasatcopthorne]

Whoops...Red face time

Sorry Dave. I missed out the vital word "door" , as in Driver's door = 1'- 8" wide

 

 

Red Face??? I should think so too.

 

Still. Could have been read either way. No probs.

 

Yes 20" is what In have. (for the drivers door, thiat is).

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[The Evil Bus Driver]

One thing Colin. Ever thought about making a "master" end, making a mould of it in silicon and then resin moulding cab ends for various units? A bit like the ones James Makin of this parish did on Loftus Road.

[Colin parks]

That really is looking impressive, Colin, I well remember my early days of scratchbuilding sides from card (I couldn't get platicard in those days), using razor blades. I don't have the patience any more myself, but applaud and admire yours.

 

Looking through the Alan Williams book, there is a shot (previously mentioned by someone else) of 2694 in BR blue with full yellow ends on a Portsmouth service with two 2BILs, showing some useful roof detail on the HAL. I hadn't noticed this before in all the years I have owned the book but the second unit in that photo is one of the hybrid BILs with a Bulleid style DTC (fourth vehicle in the train). Unfortunately the angle of the shot means that not much useful detail can be gleaned from it as far as coach sides or trailing ends go.

 

A funny thought occurred to me (but don't read too much into it!): if you had chosen to model 2700, the roof join would have been easier to disguise on the DTC because, for some reason, that had the extra gutter line along the top of the doors, whereas the DMBS was a standard 4SUB vehicle with the high gutter line only.

 

Hi SRman,

 

Now scratch-building coaches in card with a razor blade must have been a challenge!

 

Thanks for the reference to the book, shall have to find a copy of it. The unit 2700 had crossed my mind, but was withdrawn in 1968, so a bit too soon to mix with the other units on the layout. I think I read that it was a prototype for the 2 HAP units built to the Bulleid design with a 4 SUB motor coach (1 more compartment than the other Tin HALs) and an accident-replacement trailer coach.

 

As for the roof join, I have been thinking it over and there are several features which will aid me in making the join look neat: all the doors had a bevelled top edge plus a lip over each door; the trailer coach has a yellow 'Fisrt Class' stripe along a fair amount of the length of the body. This leaves me with plenty of potential cheating opportunities to hide less than perfect joins!

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

A couple of quick things.

 

When I built my Tin Hal I had the sides running up to the rppf centre-line with no join and made the floor removable.

 

Now. In Fed 82 I measured 024, the Ex 4Sub stores unit. The driver's windows were as follows;

 

Driver's side apperture 23.5" wide x 31" high. Opening window apperture 23" x 29"(inside the metal frame). The frame being an additional 2.5" wide but this 2.5" consisted of both the fixed and the opening halves of the frame.

 

I measured the bottom edge of the drivers window to be 39.5" up from the bottom edge of the front steel panel. Hope this makes sense to you.

 

The handrails above the front windows were 28.5" long over their outside edges.

 

The centre flat panel of the front was 18" wide crease to crease.

 

Trust you got the smaller driver's side door.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

 

Thanks for the cab window measurements. I have to widen my apertures slightly as they are slightly too narrow. I have got the heights as you state and the distance up from the bottom edge scales out correctly. Re. the cab front centre-panel, the centre-panel on Mike King's plan is drawn as 1' 9" or 7mm. Luckily, I did not have the time to score and shape the cab fronts as yet, so no harm done. I had been trying to work out why the windows looked too narrow yet seemed to be the right distance from the outer edges/ creases.

 

Somehow, the driver's door's on the model are almost correct at a scale 21" (7mm) wide. I did pick up on them being different to the original 2 HAL doors too.

 

Thanks,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

One thing Colin. Ever thought about making a "master" end, making a mould of it in silicon and then resin moulding cab ends for various units? A bit like the ones James Makin of this parish did on Loftus Road.

 

Hi TEBD,

 

It hadn't crossed my mind to use resin, as it might be difficult (for me!) to bond resin to styrene with out a join showing. It might have been worth doing a 4 CIG end though, but a bit late now!

 

I shall only be making a few of the ends for my own use, so not to worry. The construction methods used in making these TIN HAL cabs involves thicknesses and shapes which would not readily lend themselves to resin casting. Although I understand that masters can be made quite thin, I think brass would be best for such things if it were to be done at all.

 

Colin

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Hi TEBD,

 

It hadn't crossed my mind to use resin, as it might be difficult (for me!) to bond resin to styrene with out a join showing. It might have been worth doing a 4 CIG end though, but a bit late now!

 

I shall only be making a few of the ends for my own use, so not to worry. The construction methods used in making these TIN HAL cabs involves thicknesses and shapes which would not readily lend themselves to resin casting. Although I understand that masters can be made quite thin, I think brass would be best for such things if it were to be done at all.

 

Colin

 

Fair do's. Might have been worth doing if you were doing a huge number.

[Colin parks]

Fair do's. Might have been worth doing if you were doing a huge number.

 

Hi again TEBD,

 

With all the bl***y windows to cut out, there will never be a huge number: a TIN HAL plus a 4 SUB at most. (Er, that's four ends!)

 

Colin

[dasatcopthorne]

Colin.

 

I have attached a few pics of the Tin Hal I built quite a few years ago, mainly to show the roof conduits I came up with after much research of plans and picture books.

 

Dave

[Colin parks]

Colin.

 

I have attached a few pics of the Tin Hal I built quite a few years ago, mainly to show the roof conduits I came up with after much research of plans and picture books.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

 

Tha's a really nice model which ticks all the boxes!

 

You don't mention what material was used for the bodywork - or is this a Phoenix kit? The picture showing the trailer coach roof conduit is most helpful, as there are few pictures to go on. From a first glance, the Mike King plan shows the conduits in exactly the same positions as you have put them on your model.

 

Thanks,

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Corrections to the cab windows, following new information courtesy of Dave. Once opened out, I thought: "Yes, that is what the windows should look like!"

 

 

 

The l/h openings are 0.5mm over-size to allow for the frame to form a rebate for the glazing. This does give the front an odd look at present. The driver's window is now to the specified dimensions. Driver's sun visors will be added to give that droopy-eyed look and also help locate the glazing, which will be the only pieces on the model that have to be cut to fit exactly within the apertures.

 

To the left of the Tin HAL fronts are another set, drawn out and dimensioned for the next time project.......

 

Colin

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi Dave,

 

Tha's a really nice model which ticks all the boxes!

 

You don't mention what material was used for the bodywork - or is this a Phoenix kit? The picture showing the trailer coach roof conduit is most helpful, as there are few pictures to go on. From a first glance, the Mike King plan shows the conduits in exactly the same positions as you have put them on your model.

 

Thanks,

 

Colin

 

 

Colin. The materials I used were the same as ever. I could never cut out all that plasticard as you do. All respect to you.

 

The body is a Hornby Mk1 chassis/ends and roof. The ends have been reshaped and new curved sides of 1.5mm fixed to the ends and roof. The centre of the floor was then cut through 0mm in from each end, thus leaving most of the floor loose and removeable. The sides were then covered in shellaced/painted pre-cut card sides. Both sides went up over the cantrail and met along the centreline of the roof.

 

Can't wait to see some more progress.

 

Maybe I'll get to see the layout one day.

 

Dave

[Colin parks]

Colin. The materials I used were the same as ever. I could never cut out all that plasticard as you do. All respect to you.

 

The body is a Hornby Mk1 chassis/ends and roof. The ends have been reshaped and new curved sides of 1.5mm fixed to the ends and roof. The centre of the floor was then cut through 0mm in from each end, thus leaving most of the floor loose and removeable. The sides were then covered in shellaced/painted pre-cut card sides. Both sides went up over the cantrail and met along the centreline of the roof.

 

Can't wait to see some more progress.

 

Maybe I'll get to see the layout one day.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

 

Just one question (for now!), about your Tin HAL: When you say: 'pre-cut card sides', did you do the cutting or were these sides commercially available in the past? Tonight my sides are ready to be assembled to the roof and it is a critical part of the build. I do like the appearance of your wrap-around card sides going all the way up to the gutter, although I don't think it could have been emulated in plastic.

 

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

The basic bodyshells were assembled tonight.

 

When all has hardened, there will have to be some careful filing/sanding to achieve the seamless join between sides and roofs. The resulting bodies have been popped onto their floor banks to keep everything square while the solvent vents off. (The floors are not trimmed to length yet.)

 

It all looks a little messy at the moment, but this was a case where sparingly applying solvent was not the best policy. Griff, for one, would be horrified by the wanton sloshing of Liquid Poly that went on here, but the last thing I would want is for a joint to fail in the future. There is a slight blue tint to the roof styrene (Slater's) in contrast to the off-white side styrene sheet (generic). This might or might not assist in making a perfectly smooth joint - we shall see.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh well, if it doesn't all work out, I'll chop off the ends, add new cabs and gutters and make an original 2 HAL instead!

 

(Only joking!) (Maybe).

 

Colin

[Miss Prism]

I'd suggest leaving the shells for a few days to really harden off before starting the filing and filling and filing and filling. Lookin' good though, I reckon.

[Colin parks]

I'd suggest leaving the shells for a few days to really harden off before starting the filing and filling and filing and filling. Lookin' good though, I reckon.

 

Hi Miss Prism,

 

I shall heed your advice and reat the shells until tomorrow. Although by the time I had taken the picture the bodyshells were quite quite rigid, I know it will take a while for everything to harden. I have got plenty to be getting on with, as the cab fronts and inner ends need to be formed and detailed. The plan is to get the bodies ready first, leaving as much time as possible for them to rest, so that if any solvent is trapped anywhere It should show before the paint goes on.

 

I am also still examining the body sides (every day!) for signs of solvent damage from the first part of the process. There were two tiny depressions by a driver's door and two dents where I had drilled venting holes in the supporting layer behind. You just can't win, can you?!

 

Colin

[lofty1966]

With the door hinges , Colin do you cut micro strip and just glue them into the door groove or are they glued into "pre drilled" holes ?

I have been "butchering" some old Airfix B set coaches which had a few broken hinges and its been a nightmare trying to get the replacements to stay glued .

[Southernman46]

I am also still examining the body sides (every day!) for signs of solvent damage from the first part of the process. There were two tiny depressions by a driver's door and two dents where I had drilled venting holes in the supporting layer behind. You just can't win, can you?!

 

Prototypical body corrosion damage

[Colin parks]

With the door hinges , Colin do you cut micro strip and just glue them into the door groove or are they glued into "pre drilled" holes ?

I have been "butchering" some old Airfix B set coaches which had a few broken hinges and its been a nightmare trying to get the replacements to stay glued .

 

Hi Lofty,

 

I am not sure what type of replacement hinge you are using. I have never had any luck with the flattish 'T' shaped etched ones and gave up with them a long time ago. My method for the bottom hinges on coaches is very similar to that of the great David Jenkinson, although he was modelling in 7mm scale and using tapered 20thou. strip pushed into holes. I don't think he bothered much with centre and top hinges as they got in the way of the lining. Even in that scale, you couldn't tell they were not there at first glance and his coaches are par excellence in my opinion.

 

The arrangement I have used recently is to insert 10thou. brass strip (taken from scrap Southern Pride door handle etch) and use that form bottom hinges. The means of location is a 0.5mm hole drilled through body and I find that forcing the strip (slightly tapered) through the hole gives a tight fit. The strip is pushed in until it protrudes through the back about 0.5mm then superglued from the inside. The strip is trimmed and filed to shape on the outside, 1mm is about right. It has proved to be the case that the bottom hinges are more prone to damage and plastic ones are not strong enough.

 

The centre and top hinges are made from 10thou. plastic strip. These locate into the door groove. I have gone over to using superglue to hold these hinges too. What I do is to take the strip with a dab of superglue on the end and place into position perpendicularly on the side (which is laid on its back). It is best to do a whole row of hinges, wait ten minutes then slice them off to size, using a strip of 20 thou. plastic to get the height right. It is the same for the top hinge, but I use a strip of 30 thou. for those. If any plastic hinges come adrift during the slicing, then they are re-glued. Any weak joints will show up at this point and just - as well to find out before painting the coach too!

 

Once all is in place, it is best to fettle all three hinges with a flat file laid across them to get them in line: a door would not open if the hinge pins did not line up! I hope this explanation is not too boring and I have described the method in the 2 HAP topic, but I have no idea what page of this sub-forum you would find it on now.

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Prototypical body corrosion damage

 

Quite right Southernman, I could justify it as that.

 

There seems to be evidence of corrosion damage repairs on the real thing with strip along the bottom edge of the body sides and all sorts of welding above the doors. The trouble is, that although truth is often stranger than fiction, these anomalies tend to look wrong in model form. I always start out with the intention of getting a model with a perfect finish, though it never happens of course!

 

 

Colin

[BernardTPM]

I always start out with the intention of getting a model with a perfect finish, though it never happens of course!

Colin

I sometimes think that today's r-t-r models are sometimes just too perfect. Certainly most trains built before 1990 showed a degree of hand-working even when new, be it rippled bodysides or panels that didn't quite line up as intended. After that you add in 20 or more years of hard work and repairs, repainting, etc. The fit of the roof panels on Class 67s even around 2001 was quite appalling! No matter how hard you try, achieving a machined type perfection or almost impossible in small scale models, but I'd say that isn't necessarily a bad thing!

[lofty1966]

Hi Lofty,

 

I am not sure what type of replacement hinge you are using. I have never had any luck with the flattish 'T' shaped etched ones and gave up with them a long time ago. My method for the bottom hinges on coaches is very similar to that of the great David Jenkinson, although he was modelling in 7mm scale and using tapered 20thou. strip pushed into holes. I don't think he bothered much with centre and top hinges as they got in the way of the lining. Even in that scale, you couldn't tell they were not there at first glance and his coaches are par excellence in my opinion.

 

The arrangement I have used recently is to insert 10thou. brass strip (taken from scrap Southern Pride door handle etch) and use that form bottom hinges. The means of location is a 0.5mm hole drilled through body and I find that forcing the strip (slightly tapered) through the hole gives a tight fit. The strip is pushed in until it protrudes through the back about 0.5mm then superglued from the inside. The strip is trimmed and filed to shape on the outside, 1mm is about right. It has proved to be the case that the bottom hinges are more prone to damage and plastic ones are not strong enough.

 

The centre and top hinges are made from 10thou. plastic strip. These locate into the door groove. I have gone over to using superglue to hold these hinges too. What I do is to take the strip with a dab of superglue on the end and place into position perpendicularly on the side (which is laid on its back). It is best to do a whole row of hinges, wait ten minutes then slice them off to size, using a strip of 20 thou. plastic to get the height right. It is the same for the top hinge, but I use a strip of 30 thou. for those. If any plastic hinges come adrift during the slicing, then they are re-glued. Any weak joints will show up at this point and just - as well to find out before painting the coach too!

 

Once all is in place, it is best to fettle all three hinges with a flat file laid across them to get them in line: a door would not open if the hinge pins did not line up! I hope this explanation is not too boring and I have described the method in the 2 HAP topic, but I have no idea what page of this sub-forum you would find it on now.

 

Colin

 

Thanks Colin.

I tried glueing (with solvent) some short strips of micro strip into the groove but when I came to trim them they just wanted to pop out, the solvent joint just isn't strong enough.

Seems that superglue is the direction to head.

[Colin parks]

Ouch - my hand is aching!

 

No sanding should have been done today, but I was so eager to see what would happen, I had bash at the motor coach. The process is not over yet as the plastic needs a little more time to harden - as Miss Prism did warn me. It will all have to wait another 24 hrs. at least. The slight difference in colour of plastic between side and roof is making things a little harder to judge what is going on too. Grrrr. It's hard to tell if there are any gaps or whether it is the colour change that is being seen.

 

 

 

 

 

The join in the luggage compartment section shown in the last photo has been the most difficult to get (still not) right. Bizzarely, there is also a bristle form the solvent brush trapped between the inner and outer layer, visible due to the transluscent nature of the outer 10 thou. skin.

 

 

I do wonder if using Slater's Plastikard for the 10 thou. outer skin might have made things easier. The photos have been taken with a light shining across the surface of the coach to show it in its worst light - so to speak. I must admit to Lofty that I did knock off two of the upper hinges whilst doing the sanding, but they did get a hefty thwack from the file I was using. With the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better to have left the top hinges off until after the sanding down was complete. It proved best to file and sand in a vertical direction. I suspect that the plastic around the joint is a bit soft and liable to be removed faster that that further away.

 

More sanding and RSI tomorrow.

 

Colin

[Colin parks]

Thanks Colin.

I tried glueing (with solvent) some short strips of micro strip into the groove but when I came to trim them they just wanted to pop out, the solvent joint just isn't strong enough.

Seems that superglue is the direction to head.

 

Hi Lofty,

 

One other thing did occur to me: If you are fixing to an RTR coach I'm not sure just how effctive superglue would be. Superglueing styrene to styrene does work, although the hinges can be still be knocked off with rough treatment. It's just that I don't know what type of plastic Airfix coaches were moulded from, so butt-jointing 'hinges' to the coach sides might not be as good as the 'brass strip down a hole' method.

 

Colin

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi Dave,

 

Just one question (for now!), about your Tin HAL: When you say: 'pre-cut card sides', did you do the cutting or were these sides commercially available in the past? Tonight my sides are ready to be assembled to the roof and it is a critical part of the build. I do like the appearance of your wrap-around card sides going all the way up to the gutter, although I don't think it could have been emulated in plastic.

 

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin.

 

My sides are made from thin card which I Shellac and rub down. Windows are then cut out with a scalple and the door joints 'crushed' in the card with something pointed. Sides are then painted and applied to the body.

 

Sides drawn up on the drawing board with parallel and a set square. Probably the same as you do.

 

For others reading, this makes sure all the doors and windows line up. See my posts on making 68000. Can be found by searching for the same in the search box.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

 

ps, Brilliant sides, Colin.

[Colin parks]

Hi Colin.

 

My sides are made from thin card which I Shellac and rub down. Windows are then cut out with a scalple and the door joints 'crushed' in the card with something pointed. Sides are then painted and applied to the body.

 

Sides drawn up on the drawing board with parallel and a set square. Probably the same as you do.

 

For others reading, this makes sure all the doors and windows line up. See my posts on making 68000. Can be found by searching for the same in the search box.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

 

ps, Brilliant sides, Colin.

 

Hi Dave, I've just had a look at your parcels van topic.

 

A nice bit of modelling indeed! You cut the card sides extremely cleanly and I suppose there is no margin of error in the cutting as card must be hard to repair. I use shellac for French polishing, but think it would be risky when used with oil-based paints as it can react with certain finishing products.

 

Meanwhile I continue to wait for the Tin Hal bodies to harden up a bit more. The bevelled tops of the doors have survived so far, without being sanding away. The tricky detailing yet to add is the slight lip above each door.

 

All the best,

 

Colin