Hornby restaurant coaches?

[Wickham Green]

Mr.Moderator, sir .......... now we have a dedicated Hornby Maunsell Kitchen/Dining First thread, might it be an idea to terminate the existing "Hornby Restaurant coaches ?" thread ??!? .......... or there's going to be a lot of duplicated effort !

[phil-b259]

To be really authentic they would also have to model the composite Dinning Car that ran alongside them. These were converted from a completely different diagram of open third from the one currently in the Hornby range. I think that one Buffet did run with an open third late in its career, I forget the reason why, possibly because of damage to the CO. I would have thought that even something as simple as blocking up the windows would require a retool of the body. With that in mind, it wouldn't be to difficult for Hornby to model anything on the basic Maunsell Underframe.

 

Sorry, but the Southern Railway themselves decided that the need for dedicated dining cars was unnecessary in the mid 1930s as Open 3rds fitted with tables could do the job just as well and were more flexible in diagramming terms.

 

Witness coach 1365 on the Bluebell - built as a Composite diner in 1927, but re classified in 1930 (thus still in lined Olive) as an open 3rd precisely for the above reasons.

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html

Edited January 10, 2018 by phil-b259

[Headstock]

Sorry, but the Southern Railway themselves decided that the need for dedicated dining cars was unnecessary in the mid 1930s as Open 3rds fitted with tables could do the job just as well and were more flexible in diagramming terms.

 

Witness coach 1365 on the Bluebell - built as a Composite diner in 1927, but re classified in 1930 (thus still in lined Olive) as an open 3rd precisely for the above reasons.

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html

 

I think you have got that the wrong way about, they were built as open thirds and four were rebuilt as composite dinners in 1947 to run with the Kitchen Buffets. Nothing to do with what the Southern thought in the 1930's.

[Wickham Green]

Sorry, but the Southern Railway themselves decided that the need for dedicated dining cars was unnecessary in the mid 1930s as Open 3rds fitted with tables could do the job just as well and were more flexible in diagramming terms.

 

Witness coach 1365 on the Bluebell - built as a Composite diner in 1927, but re classified in 1930 (thus still in lined Olive) as an open 3rd precisely for the above reasons.

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html

..... though a couple of its sisters went back to being ( First Class ) Diners in 1947 - specifically for the Night Ferry. ( There were far more Kitchen Firsts - later Buffet Cars etc. - than Compo Diners anyway ..... so an Open Third would have been more common,)

[MartinTrucks]

Sorry, but the Southern Railway themselves decided that the need for dedicated dining cars was unnecessary in the mid 1930s as Open 3rds fitted with tables could do the job just as well and were more flexible in diagramming terms.

 

Witness coach 1365 on the Bluebell - built as a Composite diner in 1927, but re classified in 1930 (thus still in lined Olive) as an open 3rd precisely for the above reasons.

 

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html

 

 

I think you have got that the wrong way about, they were built as open thirds and four were rebuilt as composite dinners in 1947 to run with the Kitchen Buffets. Nothing to do with what the Southern thought in the 1930's.

 

It's a long time since I was inside 1365 and I actually travelled in it (in the first class end on the Bluebell Rly) once!

The third class dining cars may well have been deemed too cramped. They seated 64 third class in tip-up seating with one lavatory, while the standard Maunsell open third seated 56 with two lavatories.

[phil-b259]

I think you have got that the wrong way about, they were built as open thirds and four were rebuilt as composite dinners in 1947 to run with the Kitchen Buffets. Nothing to do with what the Southern thought in the 1930's.

 

I quote from the linked Bluebell page regarding 1365

 

"Built as an open third-class dining saloon, it was coupled to a first-class kitchen/restaurant coach for London to Bournemouth and Portsmouth services. In 1930 it was reclassified as an open third and renumbered 1365, since its place as a dining coach was often taken by more recently built open thirds. In 1944 it was again renumbered, as 6802, on being requisitioned for use as an ambulance coach.

In 1947 four of the Restaurant Diners were rebuilt as Kitchen Buffet cars, and No.1365 was among the coaches selected to be rebuilt as composite dining saloons to accompany them. It was divided into two equal saloons, one end seating 24 first-class diners in loose chairs, and the other 31 third-class passengers in fixed seats, all with tables. It then received the number 7841, and was coupled to 7864 (also preserved on the Bluebell)."

 

In other words when FIRST built, the Maunsell restaurant cars were paired with composite dining cars. In the early 1930s, the dining cars were abolished (converted to open 3rds) with newly built open 3rds being paired with aforementioned restaurant cars.

 

AFTER WW2 those restaurant cars that were rebuilt by Bulleid were once again paired with composite dining cars converted from open 3rd coaches. In some cases this reversed the decisions undertaken in the 1930s....

Edited January 10, 2018 by phil-b259

[olivegreen]

I think you have got that the wrong way about, they were built as open thirds and four were rebuilt as composite dinners in 1947 to run with the Kitchen Buffets. Nothing to do with what the Southern thought in the 1930's.

 

Apologies for the pedantry but Phil is right and you are partly right but a little confused, perhaps. See the second paragraph on page 96 of Mike King's Illustrated History of Southern Coaches, which explains all!

 

 

Edit: while typing this lots of other replies arrived! My statement remains valid, though.

Edited January 10, 2018 by olivegreen

[MartinTrucks]

I quote from the linked Bluebell page regarding 1365

 

"Built as an open third-class dining saloon, it was coupled to a first-class kitchen/restaurant coach for London to Bournemouth and Portsmouth services. In 1930 it was reclassified as an open third and renumbered 1365, since its place as a dining coach was often taken by more recently built open thirds. In 1944 it was again renumbered, as 6802, on being requisitioned for use as an ambulance coach.

In 1947 four of the Restaurant Diners were rebuilt as Kitchen Buffet cars, and No.1365 was among the coaches selected to be rebuilt as composite dining saloons to accompany them. It was divided into two equal saloons, one end seating 24 first-class diners in loose chairs, and the other 31 third-class passengers in fixed seats, all with tables. It then received the number 7841, and was coupled to 7864 (also preserved on the Bluebell)."

 

In other words when FIRST built, the Maunsell restaurant cars were paired with composite dining cars. In the early 1930s, the dining cars were abolished (converted to open 3rds) with newly built open 3rds being paired with aforementioned dining cars.

 

AFTER WW2 those restaurant cars that were rebuilt by Bulleid were once again paired with composite dining cars converted from open 3rd coaches. In some cases this reversed the decisions undertaken in the 1930s....

 

Sorry, you have really got that wrong.

 

7866 was built as a dining third in 1927 to run with first-class kitchen cars. In 1930 it was simply redesignated as an open third and renumbered into the open third number series as 1365. After WW2 it was selected for substantial conversion to a composite dining car to run (I believe) with kitchen-buffet car 7864, being outshopped in 1947 as No.7841.

Edited January 10, 2018 by MartinTrucks

[Headstock]

 

I quote from the linked Bluebell page regarding 1365

 

"Built as an open third-class dining saloon, it was coupled to a first-class kitchen/restaurant coach for London to Bournemouth and Portsmouth services. In 1930 it was reclassified as an open third and renumbered 1365, since its place as a dining coach was often taken by more recently built open thirds. In 1944 it was again renumbered, as 6802, on being requisitioned for use as an ambulance coach.

In 1947 four of the Restaurant Diners were rebuilt as Kitchen Buffet cars, and No.1365 was among the coaches selected to be rebuilt as composite dining saloons to accompany them. It was divided into two equal saloons, one end seating 24 first-class diners in loose chairs, and the other 31 third-class passengers in fixed seats, all with tables. It then received the number 7841, and was coupled to 7864 (also preserved on the Bluebell)."

 

In other words when FIRST built, the Maunsell restaurant cars were paired with composite dining cars. In the early 1930s, the dining cars were abolished (converted to open 3rds) with newly built open 3rds being paired with aforementioned dining cars.

 

AFTER WW2 those restaurant cars that were rebuilt by Bulleid were once again paired with composite dining cars converted from open 3rd coaches. In some cases this reversed the decisions undertaken in the 1930s....

 

With the greatest of respect, your comments regarding the 1930's are not relevant to my original statement. I shall try to clarify. If Hornby was to produce the Kitchen Buffet Car conversion in an authentic manor, it would require the composite dinning saloon that were rebuilt to run with them.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Headstock

[phil-b259]

Sorry, you have really got that wrong.

 

7866 was built as a dining third in 1927 to run with first-class kitchen cars. In 1930 it was simply redesignated as an open third and renumbered into the open third number series as 1365. After WW2 it was selected for substantial conversion to a composite dining car to run (I believe) with kitchen-buffet car 7864, being outshopped in 1947 as No.7841.

 

How so? My comments are identical to yours - just phrased differently.

[Headstock]

Sorry, you have really got that wrong.

 

7866 was built as a dining third in 1927 to run with first-class kitchen cars. In 1930 it was simply redesignated as an open third and renumbered into the open third number series as 1365. After WW2 it was selected for substantial conversion to a composite dining car to run (I believe) with kitchen-buffet car 7864, being outshopped in 1947 as No.7841.

 

Martin,

 

yes the two ran together, from my point of interest as part of set 459 in 1951 (they replaced the first class Restaurant Car and open third) and then set 880 on the Bournemouth-York- Newcastle service. However, they did alternate with the some of the other pairs until eventual being replaced by the 1954 Buffet Car conversions.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Headstock

[phil-b259]

With the greatest of respect, your comments regarding the 1930's are not relevant to my original statement. I shall try to clarify. If Hornby was to produce the Kitchen Buffet Car conversion in an authentic manor, it would require the composite dinning saloon that were rebuilt to run with them.

 

No disagreement with that.

 

However as Hornby are NOT producing said Buffet conversion in this years releases, the absence of a dining saloon is not really an issue - after 1930 it would seem open 3rds (and 2nds in BR days) were what accompanied the restaurant cars - and Hornby have / are producing an Open 3rd (or 2nd).

 

Whether the actual open coach produced by Hornby is the correct diagram to be paired with the restaurant car is something others will have to comment on.

[MartinTrucks]

How so? My comments are identical to yours - just phrased differently.

 

Without wishing to be too pedantic, in your post #67 you correctly quoted the Bluebell Rly webpage for the vehicle and then interpreted it as:

"In other words when FIRST built, the Maunsell restaurant cars were paired with composite dining cars. In the early 1930s, the dining cars were abolished (converted to open 3rds) with newly built open 3rds being paired with aforementioned restaurant cars.

 

AFTER WW2 those restaurant cars that were rebuilt by Bulleid were once again paired with composite dining cars converted from open 3rd coaches. In some cases this reversed the decisions undertaken in the 1930s...."

 

Your interpretation is incorrect and confusing.

[Dunsignalling]

More to the point, surely, is that the unconverted Restaurant firsts would have continued to run with normal open thirds, of which there isn't a matching BR green one listed this year, just one in crimson/cream. Hornby have previously done green ones, twice, so they shouldn't be too hard to find if you want one. Probably a good idea to start looking before the RFs come out, though

 

However, later-built examples of TO/SO (Dia.2007) had different windows to the Hornby ones (Dia.2005) so it may not be possible to represent all combinations using Hornby coaches.

 

John

[MartinTrucks]

With the greatest of respect, your comments regarding the 1930's are not relevant to my original statement. I shall try to clarify. If Hornby was to produce the Kitchen Buffet Car conversion in an authentic manor, it would require the composite dinning saloon that were rebuilt to run with them.

 

As far as I am aware, there was no change to the external appearance (apart from liveries) of the dining third/composite vehicles throughout their lives. Internally, was a different matter with toilet cubicles being altered and partitions in the saloon moved etc., so if Hornby were to tool up a dining third ...... 

Edited January 10, 2018 by MartinTrucks

[Headstock]

No disagreement with that.

 

However as Hornby are NOT producing said Buffet conversion in this years releases, the absence of a dining saloon is not really an issue - after 1930 it would seem open 3rds (and 2nds in BR days) were what accompanied the restaurant cars - and Hornby have / are producing an Open 3rd (or 2nd).

 

Whether the actual open coach produced by Hornby is the correct diagram to be paired with the restaurant car is something others will have to comment on.

Phil-b259,

 

if you look back up the thread you will see that my original comments were replying to Trevor 7958 asking about the viability of Hornby producing the Buffet car conversion.

[Headstock]

As far as I am aware, there was no change to the external appearance (apart from liveries) to the dining third/composite vehicles throughout their lives. Internally, was a different matter with toilet cubicles being altered and partitions in the saloon moved etc.

 

Yes I would agree with that.

[Dunsignalling]

 

 

7866 was built as a dining third in 1927 to run with first-class kitchen cars. In 1930 it was simply redesignated as an open third and renumbered into the open third number series as 1365. After WW2 it was selected for substantial conversion to a composite dining car to run (I believe) with kitchen-buffet car 7864, being outshopped in 1947 as No.7841.

So do the top-lights, which are the only external feature to distinguish 1365/7841 from a "normal" Maunsell TO/SO date from 1927 or 1947?

 

John

 

EDIT: WRONG - I just hadn't spotted the other differences. See subsequent posts from the more observant.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green]

So do the top-lights, which are the only external feature to distinguish 1365/7841 from a "normal" Maunsell TO/SO date from 1927 or 1947?

 

John

if you look very, very carefully you might detect a slight difference in the number of lavatories & luggage stacks too .....................

[MartinTrucks]

So do the top-lights, which are the only external feature to distinguish 1365/7841 from a "normal" Maunsell TO/SO date from 1927 or 1947?

 

John

 

1927 as built. sorry, don't know the type offhand. BTW, 7866/1365/7841 has 8 seating bays and one lavatory while the standard open thirds like 1309 and 1336 have 7 bays with two lavatories.

Edited January 10, 2018 by MartinTrucks

[Headstock]

So do the top-lights, which are the only external feature to distinguish 1365/7841 from a "normal" Maunsell TO/SO date from 1927 or 1947?

 

John

 

The top-lights were original, in addition they had eight seating bays instead of seven.

[Dunsignalling]

1927 as built. sorry, don't know the type offhand. BTW, 7866/1365/7841 has 8 seating bays and one lavatory while the standard open thirds like 1309 and 1336 have 7 bays with two lavatories.

Thanks. So an extra large window per side in place of one toilet - I hadn't noticed that!

 

I've now been able to tie the disparate bits in Gould together.

 

Third Dining Saloon, Diagram 2652, No's 7864-9, renumbered as 1363-8 when reclassified as Open Third. 

 

In the text (p.46), he does actually mention the "louvre-type glass ventilators over the windows", which I had also previously failed to notice.

 

John.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Cor-onGRT4]

No disagreement with that.

 

However as Hornby are NOT producing said Buffet conversion in this years releases, the absence of a dining saloon is not really an issue - after 1930 it would seem open 3rds (and 2nds in BR days) were what accompanied the restaurant cars - and Hornby have / are producing an Open 3rd (or 2nd).

 

Whether the actual open coach produced by Hornby is the correct diagram to be paired with the restaurant car is something others will have to comment on.

The First restaurant belongs to diagram 2656 built in  1932, and Hornby's open third diagram 2005 runingnumber 1400 was built in 1930, so on the moment the restaurant was on track in 1932 it will be a perfect match with Hornby's open third.

Later open thirds were diagram 2007 built in 1935 [1282-1311] and 1936 [1410-1450] those had larger windows flushed side with sliding ventilators, and so far Hornby has not made this one.

 

The original runningnumbers from the dining saloons 1927 [ post 83] became the new running numbers for these six restaurant first from 1932 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Cor-onGRT4

[MartinTrucks]

Thanks. So an extra large window per side in place of one toilet - I hadn't noticed that!

 

I've now been able to tie the disparate bits in Gould together.

 

Third Dining Saloon, Diagram 2652, No's 7864-9, renumbered as 1363-8 when reclassified as Open Third. 

 

In the text (p.46), he does actually mention the "louvre-type glass ventilators over the windows", which I had also previously failed to notice.

 

John.

 

You can make out the louvres in the pic on this page:

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html

[Dunsignalling]

You can make out the louvres in the pic on this page:

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1365b.html

Thanks, I'd seen that photo before and erroneously taken it to be a Dia.2007 TO.

 

I must learn to count !

 

John

Edited January 10, 2018 by Dunsignalling