Hattons Model Railways of Widnes (formerly Liverpool).

[reevesthecat]

Hi Bernard

Just after the price rises were announced by Bachmann I had an email from Hattons encouraging me to order before they applied the price increases across the range. I think this is what people are getting upset about they encouraged people to order prior to them applying the increase at the quoted price. I appreciate stuff has happened since and RRP's have been withdrawn which is clearly beyond the control of Hattons and when the price is known I will or will not exercise my right to cancel if I wish.

I have always enjoyed good service from Hattons and hope to continue to for many years to come!

Mark

[Downendian]

I also know little regarding legalities, but taking Bernhard's and Kris's points further for discussion.

 

Is the preorder system deemed a binding contract? I've placed in excess of 20 of them with Hatton's and they are all on the basis of a price advertised in advance on the EHattons website. I'd always assumed that the preorder system was a form of customer loyalty scheme, and good savings in return for Hattons having a good idea how much stock they can shift when the goods actually arrive. If preordering has no guaranteed long term price, then I will certainly look elsewhere.

 

Neil

[Eggesford box]

I also know little regarding legalities, but taking Bernhard's and Kris's points further for discussion.

 

Is the preorder system deemed a binding contract? I've placed in excess of 20 of them with Hatton's and they are all on the basis of a price advertised in advance on the EHattons website. I'd always assumed that the preorder system was a form of customer loyalty scheme, and good savings in return for Hattons having a good idea how much stock they can shift when the goods actually arrive. If preordering has no guaranteed long term price, then I will certainly look elsewhere.

 

Neil

Hi,

 

from what little I can remember from studying a little bit of law over 30 years ago at college a price label (presumably by inferrence the preorder price as well) is an 'invitation to treat'. The buyer offers to buy the item at that price and the retailer then decides whether to accept the offer. The offer and acceptance part being what constitutes the contract. My understanding is that if something is wrongly priced the retailer does not have to sell you it at that price. Often they will as a matter of good will but I do not think they are legally obliged to do so. Therefore, I doubt that there is anything legally binding them to honour a pre order price if they have not already charged you for it. It was a long time ago and I am open to correction if I am talking rubbish!

 

In these days of limited production runs I think it is as well to bite the bullet and preorder if you really want something you can always say no if the final price is appreciably higher. The other side of the coin is that I would like to preorder some items but with slipping delivery dates I am not going to do so as I do not know what my financial situation will be in a year or so.

[Legend]

I always thought you had a contract at the point of offer and acceptance , not when you pay for it as Bernard is implying. So in this case the offer is Hattons advert or website and acceptance is the modeller placing an order. I haven't ordered anything from Hattons for a while having cut back dramatically because I'm at saturation point, so I'm not sure what their terms and conditions are. But you will have accepted them at the point you place order.

 

I sympathise with Hattons, and all other model shops, particularly the single trader. From what I see on threads on here, and a very disciplined and informative discussion over on MREmag, it looks like the response of many of us will be to cut back purchases to what we really need rather than like to have. And of course none of us really need model railways , so in the most extreme case this could be zero. So as a model shop you have to estimate demand , but in some cases Bachmann don't appear to have set the price. If its reasonable or low you are going to get inundated, if its too high , you may have stock on shelves. And as we are all cutting back, you will have less business. Add to this Hornbys reduction in retail margin and you really have a poisonous set of circumstances out there. So I understand Hattons need to change terms and conditions to cope with this. However if you have already ordered , and indeed were encouraged to do so by the offer of maintaining price as Mark (Reevesthecat in post403)suggests then they should honour that price. If theyve subsequently lost out then thats their issue, or one they should be taking up with their supplier, who presumably changed price on them. You have to make decisions in business. This is simply one of them. No one ever seems to take responsibility any more. Its always down to a set of circumstances or someone elses fault!

Edited August 15, 2014 by Legend

[melmerby]

I always thought you had a contract at the point of offer and acceptance , not when you pay for it as Bernard is implying.

AFAIK:

Unless the law has changed recently, that certainly used to be the case.

However the seller may have terms and conditions that state that it can be varied before delivery and the buyer must be made aware of and agree to these at the time the contract is made.

 

Keith

Edited August 15, 2014 by melmerby

[Ryde-on-time]

It is common for on-line shops to have t&c's which state that a contact is not formed until despatch of goods. An example of this is Amazon who have relied on this when they have cancelled orders for  mis-priced items (which have been ordered in bulk after word has spread on the internet!). As stated above this does have to be made clear when ordering

 

My understanding is that this was introduced because in a bricks & mortar shop, the person on the till has an opportunity to prevent something being sold for the wrong price (if a TV has a £5 price label instead of £500 then they don't have to sell it for £5). Only forming the contract on despatch for on-line shops gives them an opportunity to rectify any mistake and discuss with the customer how to resolve etc 

[Removed a/c]

It is only where Bachmann has pulled the RRP that they are refusing, all others appear to be honoured. TBH do not know what all the fuss is about. 

[Colin_McLeod]

 TBH do not know what all the fuss is about. 

The fuss started with post #383 when Kris went slightly OTT in his criticism of Hattons, then other posters jumped to Hattons' defence and it went on from there.

 

Edit to spell Kris correctly

Edited August 15, 2014 by Colin_McLeod

[acko22]

Recently used the Hatton, second hand service and got rid of some OO gauge items I had which were all new, still in the box and purchased just a few months earlier.

 

I got a very good price, never going to get full market price but on the same token to take them back to where I got them from well I would have lost more money on fuel!

Although there are negative things about Hattons sending stuff Via Yodel (been sat in the house all day myself, apparently 8am till 4pm was not enough time to delivery a parcel in Harrogate at the time) when I sent the items back to Hattons via Yodel they arrive next day and I got an email by 3pm the next day to say that they were happy with the description and I had the agreed amount and how would I like it!

 

To that the normal options would be cheque, card payment etc. But I rang the store and they were more than happy to let me use it as store credit and I got what I wanted and delivered 2 days later this time via royal mail!

 

Have to say all the times I have dealt with Hattons have been A+, whilst box shifts cannot be wholly written off as a name due to the volumes they deal with if all retailer were the same then wouldn't life be much easier!

if Hattons has what I want and at the price I want well it's the place for me!

[roythebus]

I've used Hattons on and off for the last 50 years (yes I'm THAT old) and remember them selling H/D locos off cheap!

 

Regarding pricing, I deal in spares for London Routemaster buses and keep having this conversation with people bout the cost of spares. Engines for instance, used to be able to get them as runners for about £1000; these days lucky if you can get one for under £5k, and to rebuild one you're looking at £10k plus! Bearing sets alone are almost £500, so with big ends and mains, around £1k. Why so dear? Well, I've jut found someone in Australia with a box of bearings and the cost of shipping is in excess of £1k. Don't want to pay my price? Then sorry, your bus stays off the road!

 

I hate to think the cost of shipping a container of Bachmann stuff from China likely to be. Also with the Chinese workers having realised they're being paid less than their Western counterparts, it's no wonder they're demanding huge pay rises. How long till Bachy and Hornby shift production back to here?

[71H]

I purchased from hattons a Bachmann 39-777 LMS 50ft Inspection Saloon BR blue & grey for £42.50.

 

Great service from their shop but alas, yodel have lost the parcel ! 

 

Hattons are looking into it but i am unsurethat if they claim from yodel for loss of parcel, will hattons do you think charge me £50 + or will they honour the £42.50 i already paid for it do you think ?

It will be interesting to know 

[Colin_McLeod]

I suspect the lower price because that is what your contract with Hattons says.

[Removed a/c]

Why would they bill you again if you have already paid for it? 

[acko22]

if Yodel lost the parcel then they will pay for it neither you or Hattons will.

 

As Hattons paid Yodel then it should and most likely will be them chasing Yodel about where the parcel has gone and paying for the replacement model.

[DropTheTap]

How long till Bachy and Hornby shift production back to here?

 

Probably a few decades: it will end up going via India, one of the 'Stans, outer Mongolia and wherever else is (initially) cheaper!!

[Legend]

I've used Hattons on and off for the last 50 years (yes I'm THAT old) and remember them selling H/D locos off cheap!

 

Regarding pricing, I deal in spares for London Routemaster buses and keep having this conversation with people bout the cost of spares. Engines for instance, used to be able to get them as runners for about £1000; these days lucky if you can get one for under £5k, and to rebuild one you're looking at £10k plus! Bearing sets alone are almost £500, so with big ends and mains, around £1k. Why so dear? Well, I've jut found someone in Australia with a box of bearings and the cost of shipping is in excess of £1k. Don't want to pay my price? Then sorry, your bus stays off the road!

 

I hate to think the cost of shipping a container of Bachmann stuff from China likely to be. Also with the Chinese workers having realised they're being paid less than their Western counterparts, it's no wonder they're demanding huge pay rises. How long till Bachy and Hornby shift production back to here?

Actually I think you would be quite surprised at how cheap it is to ship a container from China . I shipped from Shenzhen, but I don't think there will be a dramatic difference from elsewhere in China. Assuming the container is full then literally it will be pennies on the cost of a model.

[PMP99]

Late Saturday night ordered a 'Hawksworth' coach seeing it was reduced at Hattons.

Was picked by them Sunday and delivered Monday.

 

Forgot about specifying Royal Mail/PF so it came by Yodel, but have to say that Hattons had packed it well in a larger outer box with

air filled packaging and bubble wrap.

 

Excellent service.

[Guest Digital]

I have used Hattons many times over the years both mail order and at their shop always had excellent service.

Any minor problems of which I have had very little have always been sorted very quickly and professionally.

Recently visited their shop for a few bits and pieces.

The gentleman who served me went out of his way to help me and nothing was to much trouble for him.

 

John

[Zero Gravitas]

PMP99 - I could rewrite your post verbatim, but substituting "Shark" for "Hawksworth"!

 

I've only ever had excellent service from Hattons - and I have to say I've never had a problem with Yodel either (which has now jinxed it...)

 

Best Regards,

 

ZG

 

(Edited because the "quote" functionality doesn't appear to working...)

Edited August 19, 2014 by Zero Gravitas

[silversurfer1947]

Just to straighten out the question of sale of goods, any display or advert or offer for sale constitutes an invitation to treat, as stated previously. The offer is always made by the purchaser, and the vendor can choose whether or not to accept the offer. A pre-order is merely an advanced offer to purchase. No contract is made until the vendor accepts.  Obviously if there has been a long delay, there is the good chance of a price rise. You can not expect shops to sell items at a loss - if they did not make a profit, they would not last long.  What the shop can not do with a pre-order is charge you an increased price, without giving you the option of cancelling or accepting the increased price.

 

My own experience with Hattons relates to an item that took over 18 months from pre-order to delivery. They honoured the original price. I was only charged when the goods were despatched, as I would expect.

 

I think this has probably all been stated in different places before. My comments are based on what I can remember from my legal training.

Edited August 19, 2014 by silversurfer1947

[Hroth]

Looking at all the legal hubbub above, there's a final bit of contract law to consider (IANAL, its ages since I studied the basics of contract law, etc) that "consideration" must have been exchanged, ie you've paid for the goods and they've been sent out.  If its just a pre-order, and your card hasn't been debited, then there's no consideration!

 

My concern now in that I preordered a P2 (R3171) when it was £67 and is now listed at £73.  A whopping six quid rise on the preorder price!      I'm just wondering what they'll bill me*. When it arrives.....

 

As for Hattons in general, boxshifting and whatnot, I live on the Wirral and the online chat facility is just like going into the shop and talking about my requirements.  The assistant can check whats in stock in the shop and arrange for stock to be transferred from the warehouse for a personal visit to Smithdown Road later in the day.  My other "local" model shop is in Birkenhead.  It doesn't have the stock, isn't as easy to communicate with and all things considered, its easier to use Hattons.

 

* Being honest, I'm not too worried given whats on offer, even for a Railroad model!

[Colin_McLeod]

Two parties are in a state of contract when consideration, and what is to be provided for that consideration, are agreed. Contracts would not work if they did not exist until payment was made.

[Caddy]

I recently placed an order with Hattons to be delivered to Oz via DHL. Unlike other orders I heard nothing for 48 hours so I emailed them to ask what had happened and received the following reply,

 

Dear Stephen,

Thank you for your e-mail and order.

I have looked into your order for you, and our warehouse team have been in contact with ourselves in regards to postage option. Due to DHL going by the size and weight of the parcel's, when we have gone to pack your order we have been informed by the carrier that it would be and additional £4.13 to have your order sent by them.

We just need you to confirm that you are happy for us to charge your card the additional £4.13, and please accept our apologies for the delay on dispatching your order.

Kind regards,

Bryan White
Retail Assistant

Hatton's Model Railways
364-368 Smithdown Road
Liverpool
L15 5AN
0151 733 3655
http://www.ehattons.com
Shop open & phones manned Monday - Saturday 8am - 6pm  Sun 10am-4pm

 

This order was actually smaller than my last two orders and I have never had this happen before. Has anybody else????????????????

 

All sounds a little odd to me.........

[DropTheTap]

 

 

This order was actually smaller than my last two orders and I have never had this happen before. Has anybody else????????????????

 

 

Happened to me a couple of orders ago (I may have written about it a few posts back).

 

The DHL price was only a couple of pounds more than the Royal Mail standard international so I thought I'd give it a go. Sure enough when Hattons processed the order, they sent the same message as you received: could they charge my card an extra amount due to being informed by the carrier etc.

 

I was somewhat peeved by this but agreed and actually received the order *way* faster than the regular service; a couple of days if i remember correctly. I wouldn't use it again though as it ended up being significantly more expensive in the end and by the time we'd emailed back and forth it was several days between my placing the order and them dispatching it... I may as well have just selected Royal Mail!!

[Caddy]

Thanks "DropTheTap", I thought I was going barmy...

 

I agree though, all advantage of using DHL has gone out of the window, and I am just concerned that it does not happen again, they need to spell out the conditions etc so it can be avoided or simply add a rider that the DHL charge may vary from the UKP17 they quote depending on size and volume.

 

And, I still don't see how 1 loco, 1 wagon and a set of loco crew is bigger in weight and volume than a complete train set!!!!! I phoned Hattons and am still waiting for a reply on that one, but then it is Bank Holiday.....

 

Oh and because of that my order will not be disatched until Tuesday..... This will probably be the slowest ever DHL to Australia...