Jouef - post Hornby

[Tim Hale]

Gentlemen,

 

If one was interested in the SNCF and wanted to build a simple 50's layout, could it be accomplished using the latest Jouef, Electrotren and Liliput models? Having tried to do the same twenty-five years ago was fraught with unreliability issues of Jouef locos and I never persisted with the attempt.

 

As an aside, has the Jouef/Rivarossi 141R re-emerged or is it still a casualty of Limarossi?

 

Tim

[DIW]

If one was interested in the SNCF and wanted to build a simple 50's layout, could it be accomplished using the latest Jouef, Electrotren and Liliput models? Having tried to do the same twenty-five years ago was fraught with unreliability issues of Jouef locos and I never persisted with the attempt.

Hopefully one or some of the proper experts will be along to answer this one.

 

As an aside, has the Jouef/Rivarossi 141R re-emerged or is it still a casualty of Limarossi?

Hornby have released the 141R under the Jouef label (they tend to have French under Jouef and Continental others under Rivarossi, however I'm sure that there will be exceptions pointed out by those who know better in very near time. The 141R was available from May 2011 according to Ontracks......perhaps other retailers charge less than £300? (But won't have any left!)

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[Guest Max Stafford]

The new 141R's goregous Tim, but like Dave says; it ain't cheap.

 

I like the idea of a rural French mainline, circa 1970 though!

 

Dave.

[Oldddudders]

Electrotren do/have done an extensive range of SNCF (and predecessors) railcars, and if bought at the right price these are excellent value. There has been discussion elsewhere on RMeb about the virtues of the Jouef X3800 Picasso, which is certainly a lot more affordable than the Mistral and LS Models versions. I sense that the boom in all these models has passed, and they are harder to find than a year ago, when they were abundant, and so were the bargains, which are now rather fewer.

[BB17005]

You may want to consider buying direct from a French retailer

Here's an Ebay link (German !!) to a machine selling at 297 Euros + 18 international postage.The vendor looks reputable.

At a rate of 1.26 to the £ that's £250.

http://cgi.ebay.fr/J...=item4169e9939e

[Pacific231G]

Tim

It depends a bit on which part of France you're interested in and what sort of layout you're thinking of building. I'm assuming steam era though diesels were starting to appear in significant numbers in the 1950s and autorails were well established. Also, are you after simple reliability or do you want the sort of super detailed models that come at a price? Personally I find the late Jouef Hornby-Jouef Picasso adequate but others find the extra detail of the Mistral or LS model worth paying for. Ex German types in SNCF livery have always been widely available from more manufacturers than "native" French types simply because they can adapt their German models fairly easily but these were quite an important part of the French steam loco fleet. My single best running loco is a Roco 150C but it's only really appropriate to heavy coal haulage in the East of France. "Reparation" locos like 040Ds and 040Bs (Piko do a nice one for a reasonable price) were more widely used but by the 1950s almost all had been concentrated on region 1 (Est) and to some extent region 2 (Nord)

 

For a ubiquitous steam loco you couldn't do much better than the 140C (originally a Ouest-Etat design but most ended up being built by North British to fill a WW1 military contract) which was widely used across most of France and were the last SNCF revenue steam locos to operate. Bachmann-Lilliput do a good one.

 

As Ian says there are a lot of good autorails (railcars) around from the likes of Electrotren but obviously their operating potential is a tad limited.

 

Some of the later Jouef products were a lot better running than the earlier ones I have several that run very well- especially those fitted with tender pickups- and locos such as 231K, 141P and 241P do turn up fairly frequently.

 

If you let us know what you're thinking of building - even if it's just something generically SNCF- the French modelling community on RMWEB can provide a lot more information.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Assuming we are talking diesel and electric as well as steam, I would add Piko to the list of rtr manufacturers. Their BB66000 is a very useful addition and they do it in all the liveries to take back as far as the 50s. Available at very reasonable prices if one shops around. And there is also Roco with their superb A1A-A1A 68500.

 

Some of the other post war diesels have recently come available from niche producers in France.

 

Apart from the 140C and the (expensive) Rivarossi 141R, rtr steam is still thin on the ground. And all the kits (DJH, LocoSetLoisir) fairly pricey.

 

One also needs to spread the net a bit wider to find suitable goods rolling stock for that era.

 

French railcars are a fascinating subject area. Not so dull operationally as they usually ran with trailers and so the railcar would have to run round at the terminus. The snag currently is a lack of trailers. Roco did one variant. AS did several which are quite good but not up to the standard of, for instance, the Electrotren ABJ.

[mp55aec]

I have seen the ABJ going for silly money less than £80 on some auction sites,,

[Oldddudders]

Or this retailer - not sure he exports outside France, though.

 

http://www.trainminiatureoutlet.fr/index.php?idmenu=20&cref=&csec=28&ccat=29&csub=33&cfab=-1&accion=productes

[Pacific231G]

Assuming we are talking diesel and electric as well as steam, I would add Piko to the list of rtr manufacturers. Their BB66000 is a very useful addition and they do it in all the liveries to take back as far as the 50s. Available at very reasonable prices if one shops around. ....

 

Apart from the 140C and the (expensive) Rivarossi 141R, rtr steam is still thin on the ground. And all the kits (DJH, LocoSetLoisir) fairly pricey.

 

One also needs to spread the net a bit wider to find suitable goods rolling stock for that era.

 

French railcars are a fascinating subject area. Not so dull operationally as they usually ran with trailers and so the railcar would have to run round at the terminus. The snag currently is a lack of trailers. Roco did one variant. AS did several which are quite good but not up to the standard of, for instance, the Electrotren ABJ.

 

French autorails are indeed fascinating - I have far too many of them- and even by the 1950s they were running a lot of services. I don't think they're as operationally interesting as a loco but you're quite right about the trailers and they could also haul a limited number of wagons such as express insulated wagons though I'm not sure how common that really was.

 

Piko are definitely worth looking at, the BB66000 is a bit late for the 1950s as the first batch didn't appear until early 1960 as 040DG 1-40 (becoming 66001-66040 two years later) but they do also produce a BB 63000 which appeared in 1953 as class 040DE and it is available in that earlier livery. I've got one and it runs well but not as well as my two Roco 63000s which run like chronometers - one day I really might get round to repainting them as 040DEs- and they do appear very often on eBay.

 

The problem with modelling the Ouest region in steam era- It's a problem I have as well- is that apart from the 140C and the SNCF standard 141P and 241P classes (and of course the Jouef 040TA) very little of the region's steam power has ever been produced in model form except as kits (DJH Pacifics and the Keyser 230G) or at the expensive brass end of the market . Avoiding ex DRG locos is probably correct as, though the Etat received its share after WW1, by the 1950s I'm pretty sure all that remained had been transferred to the Est.

However, Argentan seems like quite a good choice. Though it never had more than one or two 140Cs Its shed allocation through the second half of the 1950s seems to have included more 141Ps than anything else though the other main type were 141Cs that AFAIK nobody has modelled. It gets easier from a modelling standpoint in the 1960s. In 1964 - though the Argentan depot still had 6 141Cs- the daily allocation sheet shows work for just the depot's 31 141Ps and 19 coal fired 141Rs though the depot did also have a small number of tank locos.

 

So far as passenger coaches go the Etat bought plenty of OCEMs in the 1930s as produced by Hornby-Jouef so you're probably alright for expresses. The slam-door stock that was at that time in considerable use for more local trains isn't so easy. There were though some very good models by France Trains that can still be found relatively easily. Unfortunately when it comes to steam era France the manufacturers seem to be concentrating on the more glamorous locos and trains such as the 141R and Wagons Lits at the expense of the more workaday stock that was more typical.

 

Argentan would be an interesting prototype and is the station that made a short but hilarious appearance in M. Hulot's Holiday (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/peclegg/sncf/articles/article_2012_02.html) It's on the secondary main lines from Caen to Le Mans via Alencon and from Paris to Granville via Dreux (now mostly single track west of Argentan) so had an interesting range of trains and was never electrified.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have always admired Jouef's ability in producing steam locomotive bodywork which was very good for its time (although the 040TA is not so good being very old).

 

But mechanically, a nightmare. So much slop on the loco chassis to enable them to go round 1st radius bends that they wobble down a stretch of straight line. And some of the tender drives are a joke. Only two driven axles (on the front bogie) but with the motor mounted in such a way that it causes one wheelset to lift off the track.

 

Over the years when I lived in France, I did think about producing Comet-style etched chassis for various Jouef locos. Might do it yet.

 

I've driven past Argentan a few times but can't remember too much about the station. Cross-country services from Rouen to Le Mans and Tours (IIRC) quite interesting to model.

[Tim Hale]

Thank you,

 

the new Jouef 141R can be sourced for as little as 179.00Eu, no need to resort to Hunnerbein (regarded as one of the most expensive retailers in Germany)

 

If I go ahead with this project - there would be a requirement for ten items of motive power- including Autorails- a couple of 141R's and a pair of 141P's with a 140C for the coal traffic. The remaining motive power would be diesel including smaller items - Argentan was chosen because of its proximity to LeMans and the route for the last of the Normande coal traffic*. The region's similarity in terrain to the UK is a factor as is its relative proximity to Cherbourg - just an hour and a half from the Poole ferry. The late 50's would be appropriate for the introduction of colour light signalling in the area - French working signals are a nightmare- and the availability of those cheap Piko BoBo's

 

Joe has perfectly summarised my experiences with pre-Hornby Jouef, without the Hornby 'factor' I would not even contemplate SNCF steam outline and I can only hope that Liliput's foray into SNCF steam is not a cul-de-sac, a 141TA would be very useful and Liliput do make good models.

 

Tim

 

*Cannot find any online references to this, why not?

[Gordonwis]

I fear you may be mistaking coal for Iron Ore. Iron ore was big in NOrmandy - search for references to SMN which famously used German design Class 44 locos at Potigny near Caen.

 

Otherwise Argentan is a good choice - except that colour light signalling came late to the area - with mechanical board signals surviving until the late 1980s - see my photos from 1986 and 1987 here: http://Gwizz.zenfolio.com/p342741989

 

For Argentan steam see: http://argentan.vape...e.fr/locos.html

 

I suggest you pick late 1950s into the 1960s then you can use the 63000 and 66000 diesles in older ERa III liveries, and the Electrotren railcars (ABJ and X2400) with cream roofs

[Gordonwis]

For purchases - see the separate thread in this forum - 'best e-tailers in FRance'

[Tim Hale]

I fear you may be mistaking coal for Iron Ore. Iron ore was big in NOrmandy - search for references to SMN which famously used German design Class 44 locos at Potigny near Caen.

 

There were coal mines at Le Molay-Littry and Bretteville-sur-Laize, although the iron ore mine at Potingy is more widely known.

 

Tim

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just had a look at Argentan on Google Earth.Gordon can probably direct us towards a French equivalent of old-maps.co.uk.

 

It's a fairly large station as might be expected of a junction station at the crossroads of two secondary main lines. Tim, are you planning to model it as is or with a lot of modellers' artistic licence?

[Tim Hale]

Joe,

 

What I actually wrote was 'Location - most likely Northern France (Argentan* is favourite)' it merely indicates the area rather than the station - given the available space, 5mx3m, a small through station on a double track non-electrified line seems appropriate.

 

Any of the lines emanating from Argentan which fit these requirements would be considered with a preference towards Argentan-LeMans.

 

Tim

[brushman47544]

Back in the late 60s, early 70s I spent family summer holidays near Dreux. By then the Paris-Granville expresses were already diesel hauled - by pairs of either the 67000 family or 68000s (I know not which). When they took over from steam I don't know but if you want variety...

[Joseph_Pestell]

Joe,

 

What I actually wrote was 'Location - most likely Northern France (Argentan* is favourite)' it merely indicates the area rather than the station - given the available space, 5mx3m, a small through station on a double track non-electrified line seems appropriate.

 

Any of the lines emanating from Argentan which fit these requirements would be considered with a preference towards Argentan-LeMans.

 

Tim

 

From what one can see on Google Earth, the next station south (closed) on both routes looks a possibility (although no natural scenic breaks in this very flat countryside). Photo of a very attractive Hotel de la Gare.

[tetsudofan]

For the last couple of weeks or so I've been oogling the H.Jouef 141R on the Jura Models website - shall I, shan't I? but finally early last week instead of oogling I did a few clicks of the mouse.....and the end of last week the following arrived:

 

 

 

Must say I'm impressed, smooth runner, looks good but tad on the expensive side.....but you get what you pay for. One happy bunny here!!

 

Keith

 

PS: before taking pictures in the future must check that the buffers are properly aligned!!

[Andy Hayter]

Tim

Good to hear from you again.

 

Regarding freight stock, the offerings from LS Models, REE and Makette are probably just what you are looking for - excellent range of epoch III between them.

[Pacific231G]

Joe,

 

What I actually wrote was 'Location - most likely Northern France (Argentan* is favourite)' it merely indicates the area rather than the station - given the available space, 5mx3m, a small through station on a double track non-electrified line seems appropriate.

 

Any of the lines emanating from Argentan which fit these requirements would be considered with a preference towards Argentan-LeMans.

 

Tim

 

Tim

For that area you're still in mechanically signalled territory till comparatively recently but with French signalling practice you don't actually need very many of them. Locorevue did a "projet pour un module" in 1983 based on Vire, a minor junction for a couple of by then goods only branches about half way between Argentan and Granville. It's probably a bit large for your purposes with four platform faces and a fairly sprawling goods yard with two private sidings and a siding for UFR traffic (SNCF's early version of TOFC using special road trailers) but even so still only had a total of five signal posts with nine mechanical boards and a few other fixed signals. A simple through station with just a goods yard would be even simpler.

[Gordonwis]

TO answer several points:

• Old French maps are at Geoportail.fr
  
• There are about 10 official types of SNCF track layout at stations, with different signalling rules for each one. The simplest form of SNCF passing station has no signals at all, the next step us would have just a semaphore at each end of the station, so you can get away with very little signalling if you so wish, all detailed in the Loco Revue special issue Sept 2009: http://www.e-train.fr/product_info.php?cPath=61_62_77&products_id=4066
  
• On the same site IGN maps can give one an idea of the track layout at stations
  
• Here's an old post card of Sees station giving some idea of the layout: http://www.notrefamille.com/cartes-postales-photos/cartes-postales-photos-La-Gare-et-Avenue-de-la-Gare-61500-SEES-61-Orne-172232-72583-detail.html
  
• Here's a picture of Ecommoy (south of Le Mans), sadly the track has been removed: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_de_Tours_au_Mans
  

[Fat Controller]

There were coal mines at Le Molay-Littry and Bretteville-sur-Laize, although the iron ore mine at Potingy is more widely known.

 

Tim

The first of these is now a museum. I believe it shut as a commercial operation in the very early 1950s; even prior to that, production had only been about a thousand tonnes per week..

[Gordonwis]

Just before signing off for the night I happened upon this site: http://argentanwebferro.fr/index.php?/category/35

 

I think that site should be all you need for inspiration!

 

Note the 140C, proving that all you really need steam-wise for a layout depicting that area would be a Liliput 140C, Jouef 141R, Jouef 141P. Good running examples of both the R and P can be found, even if they are the older Jouef models.

 

I also checked the railcar situaton, and X2400 (Electrotren), and X2800 (Roco) both served the Le Mans - Mezidon line soon after delivery in the late 50s so the era III

 

cream roof versions of both those models would be perfect.