Theory of General Minories

[KeithMacdonald]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Others have commented on the possible monotony of operation on Minories.

 

That's if you stick to a well-run timetable by a reliable operator with nothing extraordinary happening.

 

Wot you need (my son) is a bit of organised chaos.

• Drivers strikes.
• Replacement bus services.
• Train breakdowns.
• Thunderbirds Rescue service.
• Replacement trains (Sprinters and Pacers)
• Protests and demos by ungrateful passengers.
• TV, film and radio crews
• Heritage and steam specials.

etc etc

 

[simon b]

14 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

That's if you stick to a well-run timetable by a reliable operator with nothing extraordinary happening.

 

Wot you need (my son) is a bit of organised chaos.

• Drivers strikes.
• Replacement bus services.
• Train breakdowns.
• Thunderbirds Rescue service.
• Replacement trains (Sprinters and Pacers)
• Protests and demos by ungrateful passengers.
• TV, film and radio crews
• Heritage and steam specials.

etc 

 

http://www.smart-rail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/04.jpg

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by simon b

[Josie]

45 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Perhaps it is the ideal layout for full automation? It could become quite hypnotic.

If one were to spend enough time designing and building the automation and timetable/diagramming it could in theory offer the option of being the station signaller or a driver of a particular turn which could ease the monotony perhaps?

 

The layouts I’ve had most fun operating have had specific duties, moves etc for each driver/controller/signaller involved; and despite running the same sequence/timetable 5 times over a day on one particular example it was far from monotonous even by end of play.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Josie
Edited as posted before finished typing

[simon b]

1 minute ago, Josie said:

If one were to spend enough time designing and building the automation and timetable/diagramming it could in theory offer the option of being the station signaller or a driver of a particular turn which could ease the monotony perhaps?

 

An automated fiddle yard on a return loop setup perhaps? 

[Josie]

6 minutes ago, simon b said:

 

An automated fiddle yard on a return loop setup perhaps? 

An excellent start, combined with the ability to (when on a driver turn) have the rest of the railway still running around you or trains following their signals when not driving

[RobinofLoxley]

In my very much younger days, I used to take the numbers of trains passing under the pedestrian bridge at Oakleigh Park on the Kings Cross line, about 8 miles out. When the numbers of the Northbound services started repeating, we knew it was time to go home.

[RJS1977]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Perhaps it is the ideal layout for full automation? It could become quite hypnotic.

 

If operated as originally intended, with a station pilot shunting stock from one platform to another to release locos, a lot of coupling and uncoupling would be involved, which could be quite tricky to automate.

 

However, if operated with multiple units, the MERG auto shuttle (which is more than just a simple shuttle as it allows a number of different trains and destinations in the sequence) could probably be used.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

If operated as originally intended, with a station pilot shunting stock from one platform to another to release locos, a lot of coupling and uncoupling would be involved, which could be quite tricky to automate.

 

However, if operated with multiple units, the MERG auto shuttle (which is more than just a simple shuttle as it allows a number of different trains and destinations in the sequence) could probably be used.

 

Yes MUs would be simplest and dullest. But I would envisage operation with each departure releasing the engine that had brought the stock in as an arrival. So a minimum stud of four Terriers and three block trains of equal length.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Compound2632

[Flying Pig]

13 hours ago, simon b said:

 

An automated fiddle yard on a return loop setup perhaps? 

 

 

Digital Crispin?

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

In my very much younger days, I used to take the numbers of trains passing under the pedestrian bridge at Oakleigh Park on the Kings Cross line, about 8 miles out. When the numbers of the Northbound services started repeating, we knew it was time to go home.

 

Oh, snap! 😀

Many decades ago, I did the same on the Hornsey Station bridge, only just able to see over the top edge of the bridge.

We may well have got the same numbers.

 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=51.626&mlon=-0.1716&zoom=12#map=17/51.58607/-0.11138

 

[Clive Mortimore]

17 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Others have commented on the possible monotony of operation on Minories.

Hi Joseph

 

If you go back almost to the beginning of this thread I did memention when I was building Sheffield Exchange Mk1 I would go out to the garage to do some scenery and think to myself, "Go on one train only, it won't hurt". After a few more I would then look at the clock "Oh (non RMweb word) I should have been in bed an hour ago" and the scenery would be delayed again.

Far less monotonous than just running trains in a circle or pushing the same few wagons about for no reason. Thankfully we all have our own sense of FUN when playing with our train sets.  

[Flying Pig]

Also, there's Minories and not-quite Minories.  Minories sensu stricto was designed around a couple or three Triang Jinties and a few suburban carriages representing an intensive suburban service and playing on the fact that all the trains looked the same and the hope that busyness would overcome monotony.

 

But the great majority of planned and executed Minories layouts use the same track layout in a Sheffield Exchange or Bradfield Gloucester Square mode as a provincial station with a wider variety of trains - in fact a much wider variety of trains than is credible at a similarly sized BLT.  So, foot for foot probably the least monotonous use of a small space.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes MUs would be simplest and dullest. But I would envisage operation with each departure releasing the engine that had brought the stock in as an arrival. So a minimum stud of four Terriers and three block trains of equal length.

I tried operating a station with just MUs - ended up adding stabling sidings to break up the monotony of train goes in, stands and then train goes back out whence it came.

 

Went back to steam operation....

 

Edit: I like my N gauge DMUs but they are part of a mix not the be all and end all of services in the station.

Edited July 14, 2023 by woodenhead

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Running trains backwards and forwards, or just round and round (depending on the type of layout) aimlessly is boring.

 

Running trains with a purpose is a completely different matter.

[Clive Mortimore]

14 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I tried operating a station with just MUs - ended up adding stabling sidings to break up the monotony of train goes in, stands and then train goes back out whence it came.

 

Went back to steam operation....

 

Edit: I like my N gauge DMUs but they are part of a mix not the be all and end all of services in the station.

Last year I ran the big Sheffield Exchange with all DMUs, I quite enjoyed it. But as I have already said we all get FUN from playing trains in our own way.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Last year I ran the big Sheffield Exchange with all DMUs, I quite enjoyed it. But as I have already said we all get FUN from playing trains in our own way.

Probably helped by the number of platforms and a triangle, I was running with just the two platforms and no junction so the operation was short and sweet, too short and too sweet 🤣.

[Clive Mortimore]

6 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Probably helped by the number of platforms and a triangle, I was running with just the two platforms and no junction so the operation was short and sweet, too short and too sweet 🤣.

Maybe. Or is I get pleasure out of simple things?

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Maybe. Or is I get pleasure out of simple things?

Or I get pleasure from nothing, which is distinct possibility..... 🙁

[Annie]

On my Trainz (simulator) 1950s WR layout 'Ashington' mapping out the movements from the terminus platforms at Ashington along the branch with all its station stops and then to the bay platform at Castleton Junction and return was much more involved for a Standard 2MT and three coaches than it was for the same service being operated by an AEC diesel railcar and trailer.  As much as I like the AEC railcar set it does get dead boring to drive after a while even with the whole length of the branchline to play on.

Operating Minories with modern DMUs or EMUs I think would erode my will to live and cause me to rapidly consider taking up collecting souvenir teaspoons as a hobby instead. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Annie
Um.........

[Pacific231G]

18 hours ago, Annie said:

 

Operating Minories with modern DMUs or EMUs I think would erode my will to live and cause me to rapidly consider taking up collecting souvenir teaspoons as a hobby instead. 

I've operated an EMU based Minories which had an occasional loco hauled parcels train. For those fascinated by the subtle variations of SR EMUs it provided plenty of interest but, when I was operating it, the town suddenly seemed to need an awful lot of parcels!

It was enough to convince me  that a basic passenger Minories wouldn't be enough alone to hold my interest but, with some goods facilities, it probably would. The loco spur could also be extended to fom a parcels and postals/departures only bay which a pilot loco could certainly used the throat end of to lurk in, though looking at Ramsgate Beach one of the goods sidings could do the same. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

On 13/07/2023 at 11:48, Schooner said:

i don't think you should - I'm not! Perhaps we'll recognise the name when it's mentioned; perhaps it doesn't matter :)

Bradfield Gloucester Square.

It was the featured layout in BRM in November 2012 and was more fully described in MRJ nos 216-218 also in 2012. There was a long topic on it here while John Elliott (The Laird) was developing it that has now been archived. 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/

There are plenty of links to John Elliott's well shot videos of different aspects of its operation and mercifully most of the photos in that thread still seem to be extant.

I've seen it in operation several times esepcially since it was bought by the Tring & District MRC and was able to pore over it in greater depth at one of the Chiltern modellers' days in Watford. Along with Geoff Ashdown's Tower Pier it's a layout I could enjoy watching for extended periods at exhibtions. I think that was largely down to a well developed operating timetable/sequence and I've noticed with layouts I've operated at exhibtions that having a good sequence to run does make all the difference.

 

[Pacific231G]

On thursday evening our photograhic society had a an expedition to the redeveloped Coal Drops Yard area between the approaches to St. Pancras and Kings Cross (a fascinating location I didn't know and must go back to).

On the way to and from I passed by the suburban platforms (9,10 & 11) at Kings Cross. This is still something of a station within a station with a solid (and quite attractive) wall between it and the rest of the LNER station. It struck me, not for the first time, that such an arrangement could be a good way of justifying a small busy urban terminus with just three platforms. As an annexe such a terminus wouldn't necessarily have to be purely suburban- it could also handle parcels, semi-fasts and even sleepers somewhat separately from the adjoining grand terminus and if the lines to it didn't immediately link to the main lines (perhaps because of tunnels) so much the better. Though not itself a particularly attractive station there is an example of that in Paris where the Gare de Bercy  is on the other side of the road from the Gare de Lyon but its platforms extend (P-V)  the lettered sequence of paltforms in the main station. It serves intercity and local trains and is relatively recent having been built in 1977 to serve TAC (overnight Motorail) services but there's no reason why such an "annexe" station shouldn't be much older. (It is also close to where a large number of rail served warehouses reflecting regional architectures once supplied Paris with wine but that's another story)

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

On thursday evening our photograhic society had a an expedition to the redeveloped Coal Drops Yard area between the approaches to St. Pancras and Kings Cross (a fascinating location I didn't know and must go back to).

On the way to and from I passed by the suburban platforms (9,10 & 11) at Kings Cross. This is still something of a station within a station with a solid (and quite attractive) wall between it and the rest of the LNER station. It struck me, not for the first time, that such an arrangement could be a good way of justifying a small busy urban terminus with just three platforms. As an annexe such a terminus wouldn't necessarily have to be purely suburban- it could also handle parcels, semi-fasts and even sleepers somewhat separately from the adjoining grand terminus and if the lines to it didn't immediately link to the main lines (perhaps because of tunnels) so much the better. Though not itself a particularly attractive station there is an example of that in Paris where the Gare de Bercy  is on the other side of the road from the Gare de Lyon but its platforms extend (P-V)  the lettered sequence of paltforms in the main station. It serves intercity and local trains and is relatively recent having been built in 1977 to serve TAC (overnight Motorail) services but there's no reason why such an "annexe" station shouldn't be much older. (It is also close to where a large number of rail served warehouses reflecting regional architectures once supplied Paris with wine but that's another story)

 

That sounds very like this: https://esngblog.com/2017/10/31/not-quite-a-minories/, a very interesting idea just modeling the suburban platforms.

 

There was also a great model of kings cross platform 14,15, and 16 built by a member on here. The pics are sadly gone from the thread, but I might have saved a few somewhere.  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/133329-kings-cross-suburban/

 

[Annie]

12 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I've operated an EMU based Minories which had an occasional loco hauled parcels train. For those fascinated by the subtle variations of SR EMUs it provided plenty of interest but, when I was operating it, the town suddenly seemed to need an awful lot of parcels!

It was enough to convince me  that a basic passenger Minories wouldn't be enough alone to hold my interest but, with some goods facilities, it probably would. The loco spur could also be extended to form a parcels and postals/departures only bay which a pilot loco could certainly used the throat end of to lurk in, though looking at Ramsgate Beach one of the goods sidings could do the same. 

I'm very much of the same opinion which is why both of my own 'Minories' layouts have a goods shed and platforms for milk, parcels and newspapers.  Pre-grouping era passenger trains might be a lot more interesting (for me at least) than DMUs/EMUs, but I'm also fond of shunting and trip working so goods and parcel trains during quieter times are important as well.

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 15/07/2023 at 19:15, Pacific231G said:

On thursday evening our photograhic society had a an expedition to the redeveloped Coal Drops Yard area between the approaches to St. Pancras and Kings Cross (a fascinating location I didn't know and must go back to).

On the way to and from I passed by the suburban platforms (9,10 & 11) at Kings Cross. This is still something of a station within a station with a solid (and quite attractive) wall between it and the rest of the LNER station. It struck me, not for the first time, that such an arrangement could be a good way of justifying a small busy urban terminus with just three platforms. As an annexe such a terminus wouldn't necessarily have to be purely suburban- it could also handle parcels, semi-fasts and even sleepers somewhat separately from the adjoining grand terminus and if the lines to it didn't immediately link to the main lines (perhaps because of tunnels) so much the better. Though not itself a particularly attractive station there is an example of that in Paris where the Gare de Bercy  is on the other side of the road from the Gare de Lyon but its platforms extend (P-V)  the lettered sequence of paltforms in the main station. It serves intercity and local trains and is relatively recent having been built in 1977 to serve TAC (overnight Motorail) services but there's no reason why such an "annexe" station shouldn't be much older. (It is also close to where a large number of rail served warehouses reflecting regional architectures once supplied Paris with wine but that's another story)

 

Bay platforms next a through station was another way to use minories that always appealed to me. Not sure how that could fit in a modelling context though!