Theory of General Minories

[Compound2632]

56 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

Bay platforms next a through station was another way to use minories that always appealed to me. Not sure how that could fit in a modelling context though!

 

Moorgate.

 

Or, out in the country, Richmond-ish?

[Nearholmer]

It’s one of CJF’s favourite devices: what he called the “through terminus”.

 

Classic way of doing it on a model layout is to tuck the terminal road(s) into a corner, and have the through roads on a curve as part of a “roundy-roundy”.

 

I initially planned my erstwhile coarse-0 layout like that, and even laid the track accordingly, but I decided I didn’t like what it was going to do for the look of the layout, creating too much platform surface, and highlighting the “threepenny bit” nature of a train of bogie coaches going round a tight curve, so I scrapped the idea.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

 

Bay platforms next a through station was another way to use minories that always appealed to me. Not sure how that could fit in a modelling context though!

The through platforms - which aren't part of the operational model could just be dummied so, while interesting things are happening in the terminus area there just happens to be no activity on the through platforms. Alternatively we could place the viewing side so that we're looking at the terminal platforms from the through side (rather as one might have a quayside as the front edge of a marine station so you don't actually have to model any ships.

Several of CJF's plans were for the junction end of branch lines where the branch operation was independent of the main lines which were just unconnected tracks and you could apply that to a situation where the bays are part of a larger station. The advantage of the Kings Cross suburban platforms is the solid wall between them and main train shed.

[simon b]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Moorgate.

 

Or, out in the country, Richmond-ish?

 

Blackfriars is another.

[Flying Pig]

37 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

The through platforms - which aren't part of the operational model could just be dummied so, while interesting things are happening in the terminus area there just happens to be no activity on the through platforms. Alternatively we could place the viewing side so that we're looking at the terminal platforms from the through side (rather as one might have a quayside as the front edge of a marine station so you don't actually have to model any ships.

 

See Westonmouth Central, a trope which I am surprised isn't more widely used.

[Pacific231G]

5 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

See Westonmouth Central, a trope which I am surprised isn't more widely used.

Thanks for this. I hadn't noticed Westonmouth Central before and it's exactly what I was suggesting. It would be good to have a trackplan. 

[CKPR]

Another possibility is Carlisle, which had double track bay platforms at the north for NBR and GSWR services and at the south for the NER and MR lines.

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, CKPR said:

Another possibility is Carlisle, which had double track bay platforms at the north for NBR and GSWR services and at the south for the NER and MR lines.

 

The GSWR, MR, and NBR of course participated in through workings just as the CR and LNWR did; surely the CR and LNWR also had services that terminated at Carlisle and would also use the bay platforms?

 

Which part of the station did the M&CR use?

[Flying Pig]

One feature of bay platforms in a larger station is that you can credibly park that Pacific you couldn't resist buying, which would have looked very improbable in a similarly sized complete terminus.

 

I've often mused about something based on the Fish Sidings at Birmingham New Street, which would have more of a goods and light engine theme than the standard Minories, though I would include platform 11.

[CKPR]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The GSWR, MR, and NBR of course participated in through workings just as the CR and LNWR did; surely the CR and LNWR also had services that terminated at Carlisle and would also use the bay platforms?

 

Which part of the station did the M&CR use?

The M&C always used the south bay on the down lines that was known rather predictably as the Maryport bay. I'll leave to others to comment on any terminating LNWR or CR services as I can't immediately  think of any.

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, CKPR said:

I'll leave to others to comment on any terminating LNWR or CR services as I can't immediately  think of any.

 

There must have been stopping trains that weren't through Anglo-Scottish workings?

[john new]

Currently Carlisle has terminating services by Scotrail via Dumfries, from the North East via the Tyne Valley route and from Yorkshire via the S&C in addition to those of the coastal loop. See https://www.youtube.com/@LeslieGilpinRailways * for regular updates on the stock that works them.

 

*Nb no connection other than regular viewer,

[Annie]

If you want a nice simple London terminus that's even more simple than 'Minories', - how about giving Blackwall a go.

 

[Compound2632]

27 minutes ago, Annie said:

If you want a nice simple London terminus that's even more simple than 'Minories', - how about giving Blackwall a go.

 

Pointless...

 

But do the nibbles out of the platform faces indicate the once presence of turntables?

[Nearholmer]

The nibbles are recesses in walls, I think, but it may have had turntables at a very early stage, I’m not sure. It certainly had point-work that I can’t find on the map.

 

It’s a place that I’d love to have seen in its faded-glory days, all soot-stained and wreathed in river fog. If ever I do a fine-scale version of Paltry Circus, it will go into the inspiration-mix along with Shoreditch, Island Gardens, and a few other places that you probably wouldn’t want to linger on a barely-gaslit winter night.

 

http://disused-stations.org.uk/b/blackwall/index.shtml

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Pacific231G]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Pointless...

 

But do the nibbles out of the platform faces indicate the once presence of turntables?

Possibly, but from their shape, size and position (neither are actually on the platforms) I think refuges are more likely, From the photos here http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/blackwall/index8.shtml the walls were very close to the track. 

[Schooner]

33 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

I think refuges are more likely

Agreed - one held a shelter.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/229950332

 

Not full confidence in the surveyor's grasp of the track plan, but the area is fairly accurate in general to the best of my knowledge.

 

The GNR would make an excellent Minories-adjacent corner-filler; between that and the running line is IIRC a Midland facility. I think it's noted on one of the other maps. As ever, the earlier the better :)

Edited August 4, 2023 by Schooner
Mo' better words

[Annie]

28 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Agreed - one held a shelter.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/229950332

 

Not full confidence in the surveyor's grasp of the track plan, but the area is fairly accurate in general to the best of my knowledge.

I have the 1893 revised 5ft to the mile OS map and by that time the shelter isn't there anymore.  Looking at your 1869 map to the same scale I'm inclined to agree that going earlier is better.

I stumbled upon an old photo showing one of those 'nibbles' yesterday, but do you think I can find it now, - not a chance.

[Nearholmer]

One possibility that strikes me is that the recesses are ‘memories’ of large, horizontal cable sheaves, from the cable-hauled days, although the sheaves at Minories were vertical.

 

There is a suggestive bulge (ooh, er!) at the very end of the main platform too though, so I wouldn’t discount turntables, maybe used to move stock to parallel roads, rather than actually turn things round. Cable haulage must necessitate different shunting about from loco haulage, and I’m wondering if it went something like this, with the arrival platform being quite narrow, debouching riders direct to the station hall. More like a theme park ride than a railway as we now know one.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Good description here, but not technical enough for our purposes - the usual tendency to go on about upholstery, rather than anything more important.

 

https://isleofdogslife.wordpress.com/2016/07/13/the-first-docklands-railway-the-story-of-the-london-and-blackwall-railway/

 

This description is as confusing as it is interesting https://www.hows.org.uk/personal/rail/incline/lonbla.htm

 

Did it operate as two parallel single lines? Did the gripper car need to be turned at each end of the run? How many staff members were needed on each train? Was the rope really that fat? We need to be told!

 

The telegraph instruments, BTW, were so important in technical history terms that a set are preserved at The Science Museum, and I go and genuflect in front of them every time I visit.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Shall I spend £1.20 to satisfy our collective curiosity?

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/files-emporium-home/p-1267-rh079-the-london-and-blackwall-railway-in-the-1840s

[Annie]

2 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Shall I spend £1.20 to satisfy our collective curiosity?

 

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/files-emporium-home/p-1267-rh079-the-london-and-blackwall-railway-in-the-1840s

For some reason I don't have that one amongst my files.  I wonder how I missed it.

[Flying Pig]

Well the photos on Disused Stations show a later simplified layout with just a trailing crossover and the 1914 OS survey concurs.  Having said that, both train and signals in http://disused-stations.org.uk/b/blackwall/index6.shtml suggest that the approaches were not worked as double track in this period.

 

Since this is a thread about Minories and not esoteric finescale essays, I'd suggest that the appropriate era is later GER worked with an Accurascale Buckjumper and some Hattons or Hornby carriages.

[Nearholmer]

Well, I paid the £1.20, and after a really annoying authentication process I got the document.

 

Well ……. It was worked as two parallel single lines, and the terminus at Blackwall was beyond, and slightly above, the haulage sheave, so the cars trundled in under momentum, and gravitated out, stopping shortly thereafter to grip the rope before the engine was started. No mention of turntables or recesses yet, but there is a lot to read, and I’m supposed to be doing gardening out the front, so maybe later.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Peter Kazmierczak]

The ultimate Minories?