Theory of General Minories

[thegreenhowards]

Thanks for the help on here a couple of weeks ago with our new club 0 gauge layout based on a Minories style plan. We are now building the layout and I have started a RMWeb diary of the construction should anyone be interested. It can be followed here.

 

Andy

 

[RJS1977]

9 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

 

Indeed. Aberystwyth until the Beeching axe in the 1960s was a substantial 5 platform terminus serving 2 single lines - most certainly qualifying as "the far reaches of the GWR"! Summer services were quite extensive, given the holiday resort nature of the place.

 

Mike.

 

Although from 1924 until the mid 60s, the ex-Cambrian line was double as far as Llanbadarn.

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

TT is a perfect fit in terms of being a tabletop terminus

The clue is in the name...

[Lacathedrale]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The clue is in the name...

Indeed, it's just a shame the scale is about as moribund as S-scale (oh wait...)

 

I think one of the things that attracts me about Minories is that without fussy additions, it squarely sits into the 'railway as a system' paradigm - the modular Minories (CJF circa '81) design shows how one can easily build out, rather than up, for a cohesive model railway system. I would imagine however, this is more supported to smaller scales where one can reasonably include a double track mainline station, approach, engine shed, goods depot and junction - without having to roof over the tennis courts.

 

 

[Lacathedrale]

I did a bit of research at Sligo, and wow, it's really just perfect for a Minories-type layout with lots of the operational kinks we have discussed:

 

 

Cattle dock, arrive/departure platforms with central carriage roads, a loco shed and a quayside branch that could easily loop behind the station - nary a runaround in sight!

 

A 1948 view looking toward the buffer stops:

 

The original station building was a little more grand....

 

 

[t-b-g]

4 minutes ago, Lacathedrale said:

I did a bit of research at Sligo, and wow, it's really just perfect for a Minories-type layout with lots of the operational kinks we have discussed:

 

 

Cattle dock, arrive/departure platforms with central carriage roads, a loco shed and a quayside branch that could easily loop behind the station - nary a runaround in sight!

 

A 1948 view looking toward the buffer stops:

 

The original station building was a little more grand....

 

 

 

That is indeed a cracker of a station. Even if you just used the track plan and created a whole new setting, it would make a great model.

[Zomboid]

Just down the line the apparent double track approach reverts to a single line. That's also a feature at Galway, where there's essentially a loop for the last 1/4 mile or so.

 

Quite why it's like that I couldn't say.

[Northroader]

There wasn’t the traffic on offer to allow a double track main line, but you’d need two tracks close to the station to allow shunting to take place. After the next station from Sligo, Ballysodare, the line did a threeway split, so the next place, Collooney, had three stations. You had the main line to Dublin worked by the MG&WR, a line south down the west coast worked by the WL&WR, subsequently by the GS&WR, and a line northeast to Enniskillen by the SL&NCR, so in “pregroup” days Sligo had three different companies. The MGWR and the GS&WR merged into the GSR, but the SL&NCR being a cross border line stayed independant. In the fifties this line and the line south were closed, although the line south still remains very much in place, with quite modellable small stations, http://irishrailarchives.ie/2020-05-20-burma-road-claremorris-sligo-archive-photo-feature/

Another noteworthy item, the last 2-4-0s in the British Isles had a main line turn on the night Sligo mail up to 1956

Edited December 23, 2020 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

The SL&NCR kept going on the cattle traffic to Britain - as in many places in Ireland the local roads weren't up to the volume of cattle traffic on market days in the fifties. Its closure was forced by the closure of the Great Northern line through Enniskillen in 1957 - a closure forced on the Great Northern by the NI Government.

[Zomboid]

Sligo looks even more modelable than I'd imagined. I was just going by the low res images on Google earth.

 

Trying to operate a station like that like a model railway could get very hectic, you'd be in and out of the carriage sidings to keep the platforms clear all the time with trains serving 3 branches if they have more than about 3 per day.

 

How would the branch be approached if that's the diamond that it seems to be? Presumably both ways via the passenger departure road?

[Lacathedrale]

The  branch up leads directly to a quayside goods yard - unusual in that it consists of two yards (ballast quay and deepwater quay) in series?  Either way, both have a runaround. These maps, as I'm constantly told, are not always accurate - so maybe the diamond was a single slip? If not, then yes via the passenger arrivals road (topmost in the plan) reversing onto the outbound main and then again into the branch. Probably better for operational interest and at least somewhat justified.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Lacathedrale

[Zomboid]

The diamond does make sense, as it would avoid an FPL on the passenger arrival line, and the line being single a little way round the corner, it's not "wrong line" in the sense that it would be in a true two track approach.

 

Though it seems a bit perverse to install a diamond to avoid a facing point at the terminus of a single line, but I'm not really up to speed with the economics of the time.

[RJS1977]

22 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

I did a bit of research at Sligo, and wow, it's really just perfect for a Minories-type layout with lots of the operational kinks we have discussed:

 

 

Cattle dock, arrive/departure platforms with central carriage roads, a loco shed and a quayside branch that could easily loop behind the station - nary a runaround in sight!

 

 

 

Looping the quayside branch behind the station would also make the plan work with a Deane fiddle yard as well....

[Lacathedrale]

I think I would be inclined to remove the outer crossover and shift the branch connection to the station-side of the remaining, to consolidate the throat length a bit - it's about the same length as a typical Minories throat. Hopefully you can excuse the rather clinical symbolic view! :

 

 

It's using #6 turnouts which isn't ideal, but fits into a few inches over 4'6 in S and a few inches over 3'8" in OO/EM/P4 which is broadly similary to the Minories throat. @RJS1977 great minds think alike

 

Initially one would only need to lay track on the throat board, the country and station boards could both be off-scene - the station building itself need only be modelled with the start of an overall roof.

 

Additionally, there are lots of tweaks that could be made:

• If one was inclined to split the pointwork across two boards, the use of #8 turnouts would be a great boon, and you could fit the engine shed connection in the 'right' place using a barry slip.
• One might also shorten the layout with various tandem turnouts without affecting the routes available.
• The Dock very directly fills the function of a loco pocket if that's preferable.

 

[Northroader]

Some more thoughts on Sligo, when I checked, I find it was double track as far as Carriganat Junction, where the three routes diverged. There must have been a route from the incoming road to the harbour branch, as all the freight traffic would use that. The position of the station is on high ground dropping away to the city centre, and this suggests to me that it was on a falling gradient. Were the trains reversed using a gravity shunt? Otherwise by an engine coming off the loco shed.

Traffic wasn’t that heavy, the timetable for the main line in 1938 shows 6:14 am and 5:40pm from Dun Loaghaire, and 2:30pm from Westland Row (the MGWR Dublin terminus at Broadstone had been closed the previous year) and departures from Sligo at 8:15, 10:00 am and 7:20pm to Westland Row, and 3:05pm to Dun Loaghaire. Usually between Mullingar and Dublin these trains were combined with portions from Galway, and ran nonstop, North of Mullingar they called at intermediate stations. Mail and refreshment cars were included as applicable.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Northroader

[simon b]

Thinking more about Minories plans which include goods/parcels, I now think the mk2 version with the goods shed alongside the station is a better option.

 

On the original versions with the goods sidings as a kickback from the lower platform, I could never work out an effective way to shunt those sidings. You cant use the pilot as you would block yourself in, and when you want to depart the freight loco is always at the wrong end of the platform. So unless you use the pilot to shunt the train to another platform you would need a second goods engine. That always seemed a little unrealistic to me. There is the option of a runaround loop, but it would land up being very short so of questionable use.

 

With the mk2 version the freight arrives into the lower platform as before, but the pilot only needs to be used for one move. That is to draw the train into the headshunt and set it back into the goods sidings, the train loco can then take over. This means that the train loco is also at the correct end of the train for a departure from the lower platform. This seems more realistic to me, as it avoids tying up the pilot for long periods of time.

 

The noted flaw to the mk2 plan is that the goods shed blocks the view of the station, but if you view the layout from the other side this is no longer a problem.

 

[Lacathedrale]

It is my understanding the MRC 'Minories GN' layout was originally a verbatim copy of the plan envisaged by CJF, but has subsequently been altered that the two rear platforms are now through lines to provide an oval connection. It brought to mind - what is the Minories equivalent of a through station? Is it just one side of Minories with the remainder off-scene (like Minories GN) or are there equally suitable through station designs akin to Minories? Presumably the additional complication of bays for terminating services in one or both directions is offset by my assumption of no integrated goods platforms (those presumably being in an adjacent yard, rather than being dealt with on the platforms).

 

 

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Lacathedrale said:

It is my understanding the MRC 'Minories GN' layout was originally a verbatim copy of the plan envisaged by CJF, but has subsequently been altered that the two rear platforms are now through lines to provide an oval connection. It brought to mind - what is the Minories equivalent of a through station? Is it just one side of Minories with the remainder off-scene (like Minories GN) or are there equally suitable through station designs akin to Minories? Presumably the additional complication of bays for terminating services in one or both directions is offset by my assumption of no integrated goods platforms (those presumably being in an adjacent yard, rather than being dealt with on the platforms).

 

 

I guess it would depend on if you want to reverse trains in all the platforms or just the bay, Moorgate and Liverpool st met spring to mind. 

[simon b]

Of course if you want a prototype.....

 

 

 

[john new]

7 hours ago, simon b said:

Of course if you want a prototype.....

 

 

 

Where is this?

[Northroader]

[Zomboid]

18 minutes ago, Northroader said:

What does that have to do with Amersham?

[Northroader]

Whoops, I thought .....

[t-b-g]

12 hours ago, simon b said:

Thinking more about Minories plans which include goods/parcels, I now think the mk2 version with the goods shed alongside the station is a better option.

 

On the original versions with the goods sidings as a kickback from the lower platform, I could never work out an effective way to shunt those sidings. You cant use the pilot as you would block yourself in, and when you want to depart the freight loco is always at the wrong end of the platform. So unless you use the pilot to shunt the train to another platform you would need a second goods engine. That always seemed a little unrealistic to me. There is the option of a runaround loop, but it would land up being very short so of questionable use.

 

With the mk2 version the freight arrives into the lower platform as before, but the pilot only needs to be used for one move. That is to draw the train into the headshunt and set it back into the goods sidings, the train loco can then take over. This means that the train loco is also at the correct end of the train for a departure from the lower platform. This seems more realistic to me, as it avoids tying up the pilot for long periods of time.

 

The noted flaw to the mk2 plan is that the goods shed blocks the view of the station, but if you view the layout from the other side this is no longer a problem.

 

 

You could do all the shunting with the loco that brought the goods in. Due to the small size of the yard it would very likely be a trip working from a larger yard with a tank loco rather than something bigger that has worked a long distance but in many places, shunting was done by the same loco that brought the train in.

 

The pilot would only be needed briefly when the shunting is completed and it is departure time, to draw the complete train to the buffer stop end.

 

Either version is very limited in terms of goods facilities.

 

Where the Mk 2 version does score higher is in the detaching of tail loads from a passenger train. Trying to get a van off the back of a train into the kick back from the upper two platforms is a nightmare in Mk 1 but easy in Mk 2.

 

You don't have to have a shed. It could just be a loading platform, perhaps with a canopy.

[simon b]

2 hours ago, john new said:

Where is this?

It's Amersham, but the track layout is an illusion. 

 

Looking from right to left: up main, stabling siding 1, stabling siding 2, down main. 

 

Platform 3 is out of shot to the left.