Grantham - the Streamliner years

[LNER4479]

Thanks for taking time to post these Andy.

 

I do rather like the last one; last time I visited, the top of that square column was completely engulfed in foliage. I wonder if the displaced top stone is still there under the greenery?! I need to remodel this little corner as what I've done so far doesn't match what was/is actually there very well so these pics useful

[LNER4479]

Meanwhile, back at the model, the cameraman who 'bunked' the shed last week has now got his pictures back from the developers (must have a been a bit of a backlog with the holiday period). Here they are:

 

This is the view from the top of the approach road off Springfield Road with the east wall of the 'new' shed extreme left. I would like to include a coal stack in this area as they seem to have been a constant feature through the years.

 

General view of the 'new' shed as an Atlantic takes up one of the berths

 

Several generations of ECML motive power lined up on shed.

 

Moving further along the shed site, 4479 is alongside the coaling stage (mock up). Bottom left is where the 'old' shed building will be (must do a mock up for this too).

 

I think this is my favourite! A bit of 'depth' to this view, with the 'new' shed in the background. Must make a note to snip the 'pips' off the point swich bars(!) Note beneath the front of the loco the beginnings of a pit; all I've done is to cut the middle of the sleepers out and cut away the cork below, but I think that's enough to give an impression of depth. Some older pits were really quite shallow (being small and thin were definitely desirable attributes for footplatemen of old)!

 

 

Hope you enjoyed this quick shed tour. I look foward to gradually making them more realistic as I work on the details.

 

'Robert'

 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Splendid stuff, the shed area is coming along nicely. It really was all rather a mess - far from the ideal 'garage' system that came along in latter days of steam traction, as my little bodged together plan shows.

 

 

I love the cardboard mock ups too, very effective.

 

Don't forget some more Gowhole at some point!

[LNER4479]

Thanks Dr G-F,

 

Intrigued by your 'bodged up' plan. It's not showing any of the stabling roads to the east side of the 'new' shed (where the freight locos seem to have been stabled), nor the 70' turntable at the north end of the site. That would date it at around the turn of the century (ie c.1900). However, where the old shed was, the plan just shows open roads, which would only be correct for 1950's onwards - by which time the unusual 'piscine shape' turning triangle was added (which altered the plan of the site dramatically). Have you mixed and matched bits of plans from different eras perhaps? It does show up well how elongated the shed side was, nonetheless, which hopefully I've replicated, albeit in condensed form.

 

No, Gowhole is not forgotten. I was up the loft there, taking some new photographs just prior to Xmas, so will get round to processing and posting them in due course

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Thanks Dr G-F,

Intrigued by your 'bodged up' plan.... Have you mixed and matched bits of plans from different eras perhaps?

Yes, it's a bodge from different eras - I couldn't find one plan for the 1930s so tried to approximate what you were building by combining plans and removing bits that dated from the 1950s. It's certainly not accurate but gives an impression of the odd shed arrangements, which got even odder once the scissors turning track was added. Not many turning triangles in the UK I imagine - can only think of Royston off the top of my head which had one.

 

The only proper working steam depots I've ever visited were Chinese ones, and they were built on the American 'cafeteria' system and had roundhouses. In the latter years of steam in China, many depots had triangles. But that's all well OT

[LNER4479]

Turning triangles at depots (instead of a turntable) were certainly unusual but there were a few more than you might think. The most glaring example to have missed was that at New England (Peterborough), just down the road. Sackcloth and ashes time if GN reads this! Farnley Junction (Leeds) was also based around a triangle as it was situated in the Vee of a junction, so two legs of the triangle were already there. I've also recently read that Woodford Halse (former GC) was also a triangular site but can't confirm that.

 

What made Grantham's one unique (I think?) was the unusual 'piscine' shape, caused by two of the legs crossing each other at 90degs, looking like a giant fish in plan view. This was because the land available was longer than it was wider. Of course all this not an issue for me as I'm OK with the turntable in 1930's.

 

Finally, whilst on the subject, I can share my most bizarre piece of research with you on this topic. Did you know that the 70' turntable (that I am depicting) was actually built on the site of the old Grantham workhouse?(!) I wonder if this was at least partially the reason why it (the turntable) collpased in 1950?! (poor foundations?). If you really want a grisly reminder of the past, then check out this web entry for the workhouse!

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Grantham/

[APOLLO]

Read somewhere that Doncaster once had a loco turning triangle, and that the triangle at Grantham was laid due to turntable failure.  Also Farnley Junction (Leeds) had a triangle. Can anyone confirm?.

 

Anyway, nice layout(s).

 

Brit15

[CUTLER2579]

Sad to say there is still a Workhouse in Grantham frequented by Cutler2579 and Managed by Mrs Cutler2579.  

 

Digging  ESCAPE  tunnel as we speak.

[LNER4479]

Hi Brit15,

 

The big 70' turntable at Grantham 'collapsed' in 1950. I'm not sure what the exact nature of the collapse was (I've never seen any pictures of it); presumably the ground beneath gave way or subsided such that the turntable ceased to function properly. It must, however, have been quite a sudden failure as I gather locos were sent to be turned on the Barkston triangle (approx 4 miles north of Grantham, the other side of Peascliffe tunnel) for a period of some nine months before the alternative was available (ie the triangle) in 1951.

 

I say that because, if the decommissioning of the turntable was to have been in a planned manner, then one would naturally assume that the triangle would have been laid out alongside whilst it (the turntable) was still in use and there would have been minimal disruption at the point of changeover. There again, in 1950 the railways were still playing 'catch up' on the huge backlog of war-time repairs, with steel shortages, et al so this has all the hallmarks of an era of relative chaos(!)

 

I suspect that turning at Barkston was a regular 'plan B' for Grantham as a turntable could be 'out of commission' at any time, either for planned repairs or when a loco fell into the pit(!) - but continuous use for turning for nine months seems an excessive length of time, hence my deduction that the collapse was unexpected.

 

Love the reference to the present day Grantham workhouse 2579(!) - keep digging

[LNER4479]

Oh guys, guys, guys....! Look what showed up at Grantham the other day

 

 

This is what Santa had in his sack - delivery was a little delayed!

 

 

The new arrival comes on shed for the first time

 

I couldn't resist a line-up like this. The D2 has been progressing on an 'as and when' basis and now sports appendages such as guard irons. She also had her first test run and it's all looking quite promising

 

However, I've come down to earth with a bump now so far as the new arrival is concerned, having studied the reference books. There is a very fundamental 'deliberate mistake' it transpires, which means it will have to go into works for rebuilding before it can be used in anger on Grantham. I thought I'd turn this slight misfortune into a one question quiz - so what is the big problem with this otherwise delightful looking old timer?

Edited January 17, 2013 by LNER4479

[Atso]

Lovely GNR line up there! I do like the D3 but I think you're referring to the chimney and dome looking a little on the tall side for a 1930's engine. Also did 4312 have standard size numbers on the cab? Most of the D2/3/4 classes seem to have the smaller font for numbers (but looking at my copy of the RTCS green series not all).

[andyrush]

Here is part of bridge No.243 sometime around the turn of the century. It would be interesting to know how long the advertisement for Dunn's Boots lasted - Dysart Road bridge (244) was similarly emblazoned

 

And one for the chuffer people! The stock of a train from Nottingham on Good Friday 1950, 7 April.

 

 

 

 

[Mike Bellamy]

Here is part of bridge No.243 sometime around the turn of the century.

 

You wouldn't recognise that road junction now - a roundabout and traffic going in all directions!

 

Looks like 'Bill Stickers' has had a field day on the bridge sides - obviously no laws against 'fly posting' back then

 

Mike

[micklner]

Wrong cab numbers ? Bufferbeam numbering totally wrong , number (No) should be to the left of the vac pipe. Also class and class number missing too

[jwealleans]

Yes, I'd have said the numbering is too large (cabside) and wrongly positioned (bufferbeam).   I wondered whether the dome and chimney should have been reduced by the 1930s as well.

 

Was that an M + L or Premier kit?

Edited January 17, 2013 by jwealleans

[LNER4479]

Thanks for interest guys. You're skirting around the issue but not quite there.

 

I had the same concern about the chimney/dome. Also the continuous handrail going over the smokebox front. So I 'paged the oracle', ie the relevant RCTS green book (3B) and this is what it revealed (so if I'm wrong, it's wrong!)

 

The loco we're looking at here is actually a D4! ie in it's original configuration as built by the GNR at the turn of the century. With variations, the D4's were all subsequently rebuilt into D3's in a programme initiated in the 1910's. As well as the chimney, dome and handrail, the big giveaway is the D3's extended smokebox - that was the 'yikes' moment! The whole programme was completed by 1928; this particular example (4312) was converted in 1917!! So the 'deliberate mistake' is the fact that it is depicted in LNER livery at all in it's D4 configuration

 

It is an M&L kit Jonathan, well spotted. But the original builder doesn't look to have done his homework too well (on a more minor point, the front(-ish) footsteps have been mounted the wrong way round too!). I suppose you could argue that the purchaser didn't check his facts too well either Well, it was a Xmas pressie!

 

So it's 'off to works' and, in an echo of the prototype, I am going to have to undertake the D4 --> D3 conversion in model form. I'll let you know how I get on!

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Or you could just backdate the entire layout to 1910...

 

I'll fetch my coat

[jwealleans]

I thought the boiler was a bit big for a D4, but clearly not. 

 

What's involved in the conversion - raise the boiler, extend the smokebox, cut down the boiler fittings?  Choose one which retained the straight footplate....

Edited January 17, 2013 by jwealleans

[LNER4479]

I'm not quite sure on the details yet Jonathan. Despite having inherited a lifetime's collection of drawings some years ago, unfortunately I don't have one for a D3. I understand that the 'extended smokebox' boiler they fitted was a standard item fitted to other classes (possibly the rebuilt D2's, for which i do have a drawing) so I may be able to deduce it from that.

 

Apparently the M&L kit could be used to create a rebuilt D2, which sounds a bit wierd, so I wouldn't be confident as to the kit's absolute accuracy for the D4 anyway. I'm hoping to get away with just extending the smokebox, but we'll see. Don't worry; definitely retaining the straight footplate, will be a nice contrast to the D2...

[LNER4479]

Here is part of bridge No.243 sometime around the turn of the century. It would be interesting to know how long the advertisement for Dunn's Boots lasted - Dysart Road bridge (244) was similarly emblazoned

 

And one for the chuffer people! The stock of a train from Nottingham on Good Friday 1950, 7 April.

 

Thanks Andy for posting these.

 

I love the shot of bridge 243 (Harlaxton Road) and had the same comment as Mike re the bill posting(!) I'm also intrigued by the poster board on the left hand side - was this the railway's I wonder, being adjacent to the station approach road? Of course all this detail is on the 'inside face' of the bridge so far as my model is concerned so only the operators will get to see it at exhibition, which is a slight shame.

 

Slightly spooky in a way, as I was able to call in at Grantham yesterday to check up on a few details of what I now know as bridge 242 (thanks to your previous kind postings). Here is one of my several pictures:

 

I'm struck by how our attitudes have changed in the intervening 100 years: then, a bridge face could be used for advertising; now we use it for protecting us against our own stupidity (despite which, bridge bashes are an all too common occurence. Did you hear the one recently of the bridge bash... by a rail replacement bus service! Irony doesn't begin to say it!)

 

Meanwhile, the J6 shot is equally as interesting. If you say it's the stock of a Nottingham service then that's good enough for me (the 'Colwick' legend on the buffer beam is also a clue). So what is it doing blocking the Up main?! There is so much about how the station was operated that I still don't know. It is likely that it arrived into platform 5. If so one possible 'theory' is that it has come across to the Up main so as to get the signal to propel back into the carriage siding adjacent to platform 5, using the single slip that John's (61070) research unearthed in an earlier post. But this is a move that blocks both mainlines! Or it could have arrived in platform 2 (either platform 5 occupied or a deliberate move to provide a 'same platform' connection for London)? Whichever way, clear evidence that a train engine disposing of its own stock (as opposed to the station pilot) was by no means an uncommon occurence.

 

Any positive confirmation of this or alternatives welcome.

[stewartingram]

Oh guys, guys, guys....! Look what showed up at Grantham the other day

 

IMG_5709_low res.jpg

 

IMG_5710.JPG

This is what Santa had in his sack - delivery was a little delayed!

 

IMG_5713.JPG

 

IMG_5715.JPG

The new arrival comes on shed for the first time

IMG_5723.JPG

 

I couldn't resist a line-up like this. The D2 has been progressing on an 'as and when' basis and now sports appendages such as guard irons. She also had her first test run and it's all looking quite promising

IMG_5725.JPG

 

However, I've come down to earth with a bump now so far as the new arrival is concerned, having studied the reference books. There is a very fundamental 'deliberate mistake' it transpires, which means it will have to go into works for rebuilding before it can be used in anger on Grantham. I thought I'd turn this slight misfortune into a one question quiz - so what is the big problem with this otherwise delightful looking old timer?

 

Its not a J15 !

 

Stewart

Edited January 17, 2013 by stewartingram

[LNER4479]

Its not a J15 !

 

Stewart

 

Very good!  You find me a picture of a J15 at Grantham in the 1930's and I will happily include  There is evidence of J11's working in (goodo, with Bachmann offering in the pipeline) but I suspect that won't satisfy you. However, a J69 was allocated (I believe) as a yard shunter; does that sound better?

[Atso]

Very good!  You find me a picture of a J15 at Grantham in the 1930's and I will happily include  There is evidence of J11's working in (goodo, with Bachmann offering in the pipeline) but I suspect that won't satisfy you. However, a J69 was allocated (I believe) as a yard shunter; does that sound better?

The J69 at Grantham was 7384 built in 1904, although there isn't any information on the date of the transfer or how long it lasted. There is a picture of it in the paperback 'Steam at Grantham' (ISBN: 0 906867 45 2)page 47. From the look of it this locomotive retained its original cab roof, chimney and safety valve cover but no tool boxes while stationed there. Also a second look shows vac pipes and wheel balance weights fitted.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Atso

[andyrush]

Oh, very well then - here is another steamy thing at Grantham! Captions are those of the photographer.

 

C1 4-4-2 No.62822 standing in the station at 1.45 pm 28.07.1950

 

C1 4-4-2 No.62822 shunting coaches south of the station 28.07.1950

 

[LNER4479]

Oh wow Andy, those are gems! And the last (Atlantic) survivor as well - what a wonderful record.

 

Assuming second photo was taken after the first, then here is another loco disposing of it's train. I'm pretty certain he's on the down relief and looks to be propelling the train (traincrew looking back at what appears to be the guard signalling from the last coach). To have got here (from pic one), the train would have had to proceed forward to south box then propelled back over from there. Hmm, how intriguing...

 

No need to apologise for 'steamy things' - infinitely preferable than boxes on wheels (even the ones that go 'vrrooom')