Grantham - the Streamliner years

[LNER4479]

Thanks Barry,

 

Not only does this show the roof colour, I also think that - without hopefully being too unkind to the LNER Coach Association - this shows the teak finish in a 'weathered' condition.

 

Been busy laying fiddle yard track over the last few days. Not the most glamorous of jobs, but I intend taking a few pictures for an update posting within the next few days.

[Barry O]

No problem

 

I will add some more as time permits

 

Weathered teak could be a challenge! I am not sure of what the coaches have been re-skinned with but there seems to be a lot of water marks.

[coronach]

Wow, your new layout room certainly gives your railway the space to breath! I love the sweeping curved alignment at the north end through the junctions.

 

Now that Hornby are going to produce a P2 (or 6), you will have even more scope to play trains!

[LNER4479]

Thanks 60093

 

It sure is a grand setting for a layout and the interconnecting arrangement with the house (via the office/workshop) is most agreeable. I've got a few portable heaters in there but doesn't seem to require anything too excessive - I was tracklaying till 10pm last night and could still feel the ends of me fingers!

 

Six P2s eh? Well, in truth only 2001 made anything like regular appearances at Grantham when first being put through her paces (1934/35). I do have access to a kit built P2 but unfortunately it fouls the platform edges! As it's the only loco to have done so then I conclude that it (and not my platforms) is out of gauge!

[LNER4479]

Been working on the fiddle yard trackwork. Not perhaps the most exciting subject but here are some pictures all the same:

 

All 4 trains shown here are stood on newly-laid tracks, each capable of holding a 10 coach train. 4 more roads remain to be added in this area (as shown by the temporarily placed lengths).

 

This shows 3 of the planned 6 dead-end roads (heading away from the camera) now installed along the 'link board' (connecting fiddle yard to the south end of Grantham). The longest of these (that the teaks are standing on) will hold a 12 coach train. That's actually a bit longer than intended (10 coach will normally be the max) but it's good to have the capability!

 

Thought I'd focus on the humble coal train for a change, being as it was handily placed in the fiddle yard. Here it is at its current 25 wagon length.

 

They're all RTR wagons and the trader origins are probably too eclectic (minefield!) but at least no two look alike - which seems to be the chief characteristic of any wooden-bodied coal train I've ever seen a picture of!

 

3 sample wagons take a bow, to show that each is fitted with with 3-link couplings (I've lost count of how many RTR wagons I've converted to 3 link over the years - must be well over 100!) and also weathered - I use a simple wet wash of thinners and random dabbing into black and brick red (M70).

 

Finally, some wall adornments to add to the ambience!

 

 

Meanwhile, in other news, as a direct result of these postings and interest shown, I have been invited to attend next year's Nottingham Model Railway Exhibition (16th/17th March) to man a demonstration stand about using Peco track to create realistic track formations. I shall be bringing one of the Grantham boards as part of the presentation (well it's a start!). So if you're planning to come to the show then do come and say hello.

 

'Robert'

Edited December 18, 2012 by LNER4479

[Barry O]

Looking very good!

 

The layout will eat stock - so keep on fitting the 3 links.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Robert, you'll find this picture interesting.

 

O2 2-8-0 3496 on coal train sometime in the 40s

[jwealleans]

Lovely picture but I'm not sure it's a coal train - most of the leading wagons are 5 and 6 plank railway owned opens, not minerals and some of those further back look to be even lower. Can't see any loads or sheets (except maybe on that 3 plank 12 back) - I'd put my 5p on it being a train of empties, especially given the headcode.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

That confirms my suspicions about the 5/6 plank company wagons - I was trying to find a typical 30s coal train with lots of private owners for inspiration - nada so far, almost all pics I've found so far are 50s or later and infested with the ubiquitous BR 16 tonners....

 

Will keep looking (it beats work, everybody else here seems to have started the holidays early... )

[jwealleans]

Are you looking online or in books - there are a few in the LNER albums which have rakes of PO wagons in the background (that famous one of an A4 and V2 climbing Holloway bank is one) ans also in Geoff Goslin's book on freight traffic.

 

If you're not bothered about the LNER area, the ultimate is John Hayes' The 4mm Coal Wagon.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

online - i have a couple of books that might have something in... a vague memory of a P1 on a coal train is stirring... but they're at home, and I'm manning the fort.

[LNER4479]

I am allegedly 'working' today myself Dr G-F - but I declare it to be lunchtime!

 

Great conversation above - I wondered if the coal train might spark a few comments, and it's good to see the 'fount of all knowledge' on LNER wagon matters contributing

 

Great pic of the O2 (where do great pics like that keep coming from?!). I too did doubt it was actually a coal train for more or less the same reason Jonathan states. I do have the Goslin reference book and there are indeed some great pictures of 1930's coal trains. These merely reinforce my impression that a random collection of 'no two wagons alike' is the look to aim for. However, the more reference photos the better so if you do find any more please shout.

 

Of course PO coal wagons is a fascinating topic that many have devoted a lifetime's work to and, like so many other aspects, I can but scratch the surface in my portrayal. I am however intrigued by the contrast between 1930's and 1950's (the latter of which I've studied for my previous project). Post war of course the PO wagon fleet, having been requisitioned for the war effort, never went back to PO and was being phased out as fast at the steel 16tonners could be built, hence they could turn up anywhere. If any of the former PO markings were left at all they would be barely legible and bore little relation geographically to where they could be found.

 

But the 1930's? Was the geographical relationship already beginning to fall down even then? Or should I really have no South Wales collieries branded wagons in a 1930's LNER coal train?(!) Be interested to know a bit more about the 'rhyme and reason' behind this. To 'play safe', any new ones I buy I'm trying to select ones branded for East Midlands or further north locations (the William Wood Huddersfield wagon in #230 is an example of this).

 

Perhaps there is no definitive answer. To hear the clatter of buffers as the loco 'sets back' is all the entertainment most will need I suspect!

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Can't remember which book, but I have one with a photo of an Ocean coal wagon, from deepest Wales, marshalled into a train in East Anglia. Definitely pre-nationalisation, possibly even pre-grouping. If I can find the book, I'll give more detail, but I think it likely that at least some PO wagons roamed far and wide in the 1930s.

[LNER4479]

The layout will eat stock - so keep on fitting the 3 links.

 

Gee thanks Barry

 

Actually, I find it quite therapeutic in small doses. I converted seven last week alone, handy little project to pick up and put down when you have 20-30mins spare.

 

Great Page 1 on Layout Topics today: Peterborough, Greenfield, BNS, Camden, Haymarket, Wainfleet, Lime Street, Dent... Prototype layouts to the fore!

[jwealleans]

I'd have thought you can get away with a few - didn't anthracite in this country come from South Wales? Glancing at Geoff Goslin's book which is just outside my office, the O2 on page 22 also has an empty wagon train - the leading wagon is missing the far side, looks as if it's been on fire - but the coal train beyond has one of the big London coal factors, Judbud, Charrington (weren't they another) and further down a wagon from Maltby Main. A mixture of coal factors bringing their wagons south and the larger midlands collieries sending theirs. Over the page there's a J3 leading an empty wagon back to Swansea, so it must have gone north full. The wagon behind that is a Stephenson Clarke and I think I'm right in saying they were one of the biggest coal factors as well.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

This is a bit more promising: 1941 coal train

 

It's like the marie celeste here, no phone calls and no emails either, so plenty of time for 'research'

[LNER4479]

Wow Dr G-F - that is a cracker!!

 

Obviously NE area; my eye is drawn nearly as much by the 'mixed' goods on the right hand side, what a collection of stock. And look at the tanker wagon, second vehicle in. Are the vans being used as barriers or is the tank empty and thus not-dangerous? All fascinating stuff - may the Marie Celeste stay becalmed for a good while yet!

 

During my 'mid-afternoon tea break', have popped into a model shop and came out with an 8-planker 'T W Ward, Sheffield'. Hope that doesn't make me a plonker (lol!)

 

[jwealleans]

That is a fantastic picture. A decent size original would make a fascinating study. Brake van four vehicles behind the B16, G2 van two behind that, some sort of tank towards the end of the loaded coal rake and what looks like a cattle wagon a bit further behind that.

 

Where the N8/9 is must be some sort of transfer yard as there are no brake vans on any of those lines of minerals. It would be nice to be able to read some of the names. Even their presence is interesting in its own right as the North Eastern area generally used company minerals and had relatively few PO ones. That must be the impact of the wartime pooling.

 

I've linked it on the LNER forum to see if anyone recognises the location.

[jwealleans]

Mick Nicholson has confirmed that the photo is Hull:

 

"The location is Hull, it is taken off the top of Dairycoates "Coal Cracker", and I believe originated as a LNER wartime publicity shot. The bridge in the background is a fixed span and carried the H&B over the NE main line. If anyone wants further information of the area please ask. Mick."

[LNER4479]

Mick Nicholson has confirmed that the photo is Hull:

"The location is Hull, it is taken off the top of Dairycoates "Coal Cracker", and I believe originated as a LNER wartime publicity shot. The bridge in the background is a fixed span and carried the H&B over the NE main line. If anyone wants further information of the area please ask. Mick."

 

Wow - thanks for that speedy info Jonathan. I guess that explains the minor obstruction in the bottom left of the picture (a handrail perhaps?)

 

online - i have a couple of books that might have something in... a vague memory of a P1 on a coal train is stirring... but they're at home, and I'm manning the fort.

Can't remember which book, but I have one with a photo of an Ocean coal wagon, from deepest Wales, marshalled into a train in East Anglia. Definitely pre-nationalisation, possibly even pre-grouping. If I can find the book, I'll give more detail, but I think it likely that at least some PO wagons roamed far and wide in the 1930s.

 

Thanks guys. From this brief straw poll it seems that I needn't overly worry about the exact origins of the wagons (provided they're not all from south wales!). I came across a P1 picture last night Dr G-F (in the LNER 150 book) that might the one you're referring to. One of the leading wagons is 'Maltby Main'. That's the second mention for them in this discussion so one to look out for I think.

Edited December 19, 2012 by LNER4479

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

I haven't found the book I was referring to, but I'm pretty certain it was British Railways Past & Present volume 12, East Anglia. My copy is buried somewhere in the loft...

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

The LNER 150 book sounds right. I think the thing to be aware of would be that coal would come in different types and from different places, so I would assume that an average coal train would contain 'blocks' of product arranged according to destination or type. I assume coal loads heading through Grantham would be complete trains from Colwick or some other concentration yard, conveying blocks heading for London? Were PO coal wagons used on a common owner principle, so they could end up anywhere?

 

I've just realised I know almost nothing about the operation of railways in the 30s. Looking forward to finding out more!

[andyrush]

The topic of 'where PO coal wagons would have been seen' between 1923 and 1939 is one which is less easily answered now than it was in my youth when there were people about who had seen lots of coal and empties trains that you could badger into answering your questions. Of course, a lot of said people were really only interested in the usually shiny things on the front, but there were some exceptions. I spent a lot of my early railway career doing a lot of badgering (it often took a while to get colleagues to ADMIT they were interested in the trains they were involved in), and it became obvious that few modellers understood (or cared about) the subject.

 

From all this and a lifelong interest in goods trains, it is possible to advance various 'principles' based on a mixture of hearsay evidence, looking at photographs of trains (and being careful to note what is not there as well as what is) and research using Railway Clearing House documents and miscellaneous railway instructions and correspondence 'rescued' over the years. I'm quite happy to put some of these principles' up to be shot down if people are interested, but it is such a broad subject that I suggest it would need to be a separate thread. And as my main interest in goods train working is LNER (Southern Area), anything beyond that would be even more a matter of opinion, but it might start some useful discussion.

 

Andy

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

Andy, I'd definitely be interested. I'm much more interested in freight than self-loading cargo, and even the shiny things at the front aren't that interesting - and they're certainly well documented. Why only this week, I found out where most of them lived and when they lived there.

 

One day I hope to sit alongside Grantham and watch a succession of authentic freights trundling past, in much the same way that Peterborough has the late 50s pax well covered.

 

But the hows and whys of steam era freight handling, bring it on!

 

New Thread please, Vicar.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

I'm quite happy to put some of these principles' up to be shot down if people are interested, but it is such a broad subject that I suggest it would need to be a separate thread.

Ooh, yes please.

 

...my main interest in goods train working is LNER (Southern Area)...

Mine too, and although my knowledge is quite limited, my enthusiasm is strong!