Dock Green

[chaz]

Chaz

 

After your comments in post 1890, i do not imagine there is any great chance of you turning your hand to one of Mister Churchward's lovelies....

 

 

The solution does work, but probably won't be repeated. Previous conversation with David (DLOS/IsembardUK) suggests a more elegant plunger design.

 

S

 

"Mister Churchward's lovelies...."   I assume that would refer to his daughters, as only those who didn't go to Specsavers could possibly....

 

Naughty I know, but I can never resist pulling the leg of the Go When Ready fans.

[Donw]

Thank you for your comments I will see what space there is for the speaker. There seems to be so much more to fit in. With small boilered locos some form of dummy or working inside motion makes quite a difference in 7mm. I take your point about the wiring from the tender Chaz I have been thinking that it sort resembles the pipes which connected the water up.

Split axles work nicely in 2mm where the wheels are designed for that system but it does introduce other problems such a the grearbox needing to be insulated from at least one side. If I had been intending to put the speaker in the tender with the decoder a split axle tender pickup would have made sense. Those comments show that speaker placement is quite noticeable.

Don

[chaz]

Thank you for your comments I will see what space there is for the speaker. There seems to be so much more to fit in. With small boilered locos some form of dummy or working inside motion makes quite a difference in 7mm. I take your point about the wiring from the tender Chaz I have been thinking that it sort resembles the pipes which connected the water up.

Split axles work nicely in 2mm where the wheels are designed for that system but it does introduce other problems such a the grearbox needing to be insulated from at least one side. If I had been intending to put the speaker in the tender with the decoder a split axle tender pickup would have made sense. Those comments show that speaker placement is quite noticeable.

Don

 

I have a 7mm B1 which was built for me from a DMR kit - lovely model of Mr Thompson's best. When I came to put sound in it I was reluctant to cut away some nice detail between the frames of the loco so I put the speaker in the tender. I must change that some time as it is all too obvious from where the sound is coming 

 

PS - IMHO there is more merit in putting the speaker in the loco than there is in including inside valve gear - I think it does more for realism - still, if you can do both....

 

Chaz

[Barnaby]

Hy Dave, on the face of it what you say I would agree with.  I've not done any testing for this but then thinking about it at the normal viewing distance would you be able to detect the speaker positioning within any loco?

 

I model in 0 and I would agree that my head says nooooooooooo to doing this but I'm not sure I have/would notice it in a passing loco, maybe it might be more noticeable in the smaller scales.

 

Regards

[Simond]

Yes agree, don't put it in the tender.

 

7mm is big enough to give position to sound and it really is noticeable when the speaker is in the tender. Drain cocks are not fitted to tenders as far as I know !

 I'm prepared to bet there is a drain cock, for getting the c&@p out of the tank - but equally, not steam powered, and not operated from the cab...  and highly unlikely to be included in anyone's sound project!

[chaz]

 I'm prepared to bet there is a drain cock, for getting the c&@p out of the tank - but equally, not steam powered, and not operated from the cab...  and highly unlikely to be included in anyone's sound project!

 

...unless you are modelling one of Mr Sturrock's steam tenders....

Edited September 22, 2014 by chaz

[Simond]

live and learn....   I'd heard of boosters, but not on tenders.  It's interesting to see you are promoting one of Gooch's proteges.  Probably wouldn't have needed a booster-tender if his locos had more than one driving axle... 

 

I'm still giggling about your "Churchward's daughters" gag.  I'd have put two "funnies" on, but the website won't allow it.  spoilsports.  (Sadly, I suspect he never had any - acc. Wikipedia he never married.)

 

best

Simon

[daifly]

Hy Dave, on the face of it what you say I would agree with.  I've not done any testing for this but then thinking about it at the normal viewing distance would you be able to detect the speaker positioning within any loco?

 

I model in 0 and I would agree that my head says nooooooooooo to doing this but I'm not sure I have/would notice it in a passing loco, maybe it might be more noticeable in the smaller scales.

 

Regards

The locos involved were mostly Halls, Castles and Kings and there was little doubt that the sounds 'followed' the loco rather than coming from it. There was quite a lineside discussion about it amongst the model gricers and all were agreed that it was very noticeable from close up. Further away, the noise in the hall made that judgement difficult but one would not have that distraction in e.g. a domestic situation and I suggest that it would be noticeable at most viewing distances.

Dave

[chaz]

live and learn....   I'd heard of boosters, but not on tenders.  It's interesting to see you are promoting one of Gooch's proteges.  Probably wouldn't have needed a booster-tender if his locos had more than one driving axle... 

 

I'm still giggling about your "Churchward's daughters" gag.  I'd have put two "funnies" on, but the website won't allow it.  spoilsports.  (Sadly, I suspect he never had any - acc. Wikipedia he never married.)

 

best

Simon

 

Sturrock's steam tenders were used behind 0-6-0 mineral engines, but like a lot of short-lived ideas not a great success. I wouldn't say I was promoting Sturrock, just mentioning the man, his loco's are rather before my period!

 

So Churchward was a batchelor was he? Of course that doesn't necessarily rule out daughters....   Swindon, a hotbed of passion....hmm, perhaps not.

 

Chaz

Edited September 22, 2014 by chaz

[chaz]

Hy Dave, on the face of it what you say I would agree with.  I've not done any testing for this but then thinking about it at the normal viewing distance would you be able to detect the speaker positioning within any loco?

 

I model in 0 and I would agree that my head says nooooooooooo to doing this but I'm not sure I have/would notice it in a passing loco, maybe it might be more noticeable in the smaller scales.

 

Regards

 

I don't think the position within a loco matters hugely - you don't need to get too hung up about the chimney as the main source of sound - but a speaker in the tender does sound wrong when it passes close by.  However IMHO it's still better than no sound at all.

 

I was chatting to Lee Marsh at Telford as I was very interested in the RTR 9F he is about to produce. IIRC this will have two speakers, one in the loco and one in the tender. This should have the effect of divorcing the sound from one small area - rather like Hi Fi when playing old mono recordings - there is no stereo separation but the sound no longer seems to come from a speaker but "hovers" in between the two and sounds fuller, more natural.

 

Chaz

[Donw]

If it was stereo you could have the puffing coming from the front and from the rear the sound of coal being shoveled, fire doors be banged shut, the fireman muttering or swearing .....

Don

[81A Oldoak]

I don't think the position within a loco matters hugely - you don't need to get too hung up about the chimney as the main source of sound - but a speaker in the tender does sound wrong when it passes close by.  However IMHO it's still better than no sound at all.

 

I was chatting to Lee Marsh at Telford as I was very interested in the RTR 9F he is about to produce. IIRC this will have two speakers, one in the loco and one in the tender. This should have the effect of divorcing the sound from one small area - rather like Hi Fi when playing old mono recordings - there is no stereo separation but the sound no longer seems to come from a speaker but "hovers" in between the two and sounds fuller, more natural.

 

Chaz

I'm sure Bose could come up with a solution

[Fettster42]

Sorry to change the subject, earlier when you were doing some weathering on some wagons you mentioned soaking glass fibre refills in PVA. How do you go about this so you dont stick them to anything else, and do you use neat PVA or thinned?

 

Thanks

 

Leigh

[chaz]

Sorry to change the subject, earlier when you were doing some weathering on some wagons you mentioned soaking glass fibre refills in PVA. How do you go about this so you dont stick them to anything else, and do you use neat PVA or thinned?

 

Thanks

 

Leigh

 

Sorry Leigh, I haven't actually done this. What I did do was buy some (I think they were Expo ones) which were already so treated. If I were going to do them myself I think I would either use Poundland PVA which is very runny to start with or thin the PVA with a little water.

 

As far as not sticking them to anything else maybe stick them sharp end up on to a piece of board with small blobs of Blutack.....?

 

Sorry to be vague but as I said I haven't done this myself. Maybe a bit of experimentation is needed......

[2ManySpams]

Sorry to change the subject, earlier when you were doing some weathering on some wagons you mentioned soaking glass fibre refills in PVA. How do you go about this so you dont stick them to anything else, and do you use neat PVA or thinned?

 

Thanks

 

Leigh

Plastic tray with a PVA / water mix (dash of washing up liquid too). Lob in the refills and leave to soak. I ignored mine for a good day. Take out and drain on tray lid or tin foil (something that won't glue to the drying refills). When set hard they are ready to use.

[chaz]

Warning - a wooden clip was harmed in the course of this work.

The downside to having such thick brass frames to work with is that so much heat is required to get to a temperature where even 145 solder will flow. A soldering iron is just not man enough.
The original frames had small brackets, stepped in from the frames, to support the rods that represent the linkage for the derived motion centre cylinder. I decided to reuse these. To solder them in place required the use of a butane torch. I used a miniature wooden (clothes peg style) clip to hold them in position. I flooded the joint with liquid flux and put a short length of 145 solder wire against the side of the bracket.

 

 

Playing the blue pencil flame up and down the brass frame next to the bracket brought the temperature up nicely until the solder flashed into the joint, appearing on the other side as a bright line.  The wooden clip was left in place until the brass had cooled and it survived long enough to do both sides but has since has had to be retired, dead. 

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

Other parts I decided to reuse are the return cranks. These were mounted on brass pins that were tapped 10BA but were rather slack on the screws - not good for this job. Unfortunately the tube that has an external diameter of 2.4mm (same as a Slater's crank pin) has an internal bore that is a bit oversize to tap 10BA. So I solder the next tube size down into a length of it and then drilled it out to 1.4mm.

 

Now why was it so difficult to cut the thread? I don't think my tap can be blunt - it has seen very little use. Could it be that the brass tube is rather hard, or will drilling out the bore have work-hardened it?

 

 

Above are the assembled return cranks, ready to be fitted. The 12BA steel screws will carry the eccentric rods. I'm not sure if I should add a plain collar to the screws to avoid the threads being the bearing surfaces - that's not good engineering practice but maybe OK here?

 

Again the camera has been very unkind to my efforts.

 

Chaz

Edited September 24, 2014 by chaz

[Simond]

Chaz

 

I would definitely try to prevent the links running on threads. If you have some thin wall tube, the nut can clamp it so it doesn't turn - wins both ways as the nut can be tightened down on something.

 

Best

Simon

[chaz]

Chaz

 

I would definitely try to prevent the links running on threads. If you have some thin wall tube, the nut can clamp it so it doesn't turn - wins both ways as the nut can be tightened down on something.

 

Best

Simon

 

Nice one!  Thanks for that idea. If I don't have any suitable tube it might be possible to make a short length on the lathe. I will just have to check that there is enough "meat" on the end of the eccentric rod to drill the larger hole required. There are one or two screws in use elsewhere in the motion that I have no intention of disturbing - they don't rotate a full circle like  this one will but merely oscillate through small angles.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

The next job is one I am not looking forward to - a full test assembly of the cylinders and motion onto the wheels and then into the frames with all the axle washers and compensation spacer tubes in place. Having to lock the angle of the return cranks from the back of the centre driving wheels with the coupling rods and connecting rods in position forces this. The reduced and reversed crank pin on the leading drivers means that those wheels must also be part of the assembly. Only the rear drivers can be in place before the coupling rods go on.

 

Of course this will be easier at the moment with no brakes in place - unless these are modelled at an unrealistic distance from the wheel rims they are going to make the assembly very tricky. I think I need to look at ways of making it possible to fit the brake gear after the wheels are in place - probably means putting threads on the back of the brake support pillars. I wonder how other modellers deal with the brakes on locos with outside motion? With a simple inside cylinder 0-6-0T it's possible to fiddle the wheel flanges past the brakes but on the K3 this is going to be difficult, if not impossible. I'd welcome any ideas.

 

Chaz

[chaz]

I had one or two repairs to make to the motion, all on the left hand side. The slidebars needed soldering back into the cylinder front and there was no trace of a joint between the combining lever and the valve spindle. A 14BA screw serves here.

 

 

Although the valve gear does look well used it looks OK when it is in place and will pass muster I think on the rebuilt model - which will have a number of other compromises forced by the original parts I will use.

[Donw]

The next job is one I am not looking forward to - a full test assembly of the cylinders and motion onto the wheels and then into the frames with all the axle washers and compensation spacer tubes in place. Having to lock the angle of the return cranks from the back of the centre driving wheels with the coupling rods and connecting rods in position forces this. The reduced and reversed crank pin on the leading drivers means that those wheels must also be part of the assembly. Only the rear drivers can be in place before the coupling rods go on.

 

Of course this will be easier at the moment with no brakes in place - unless these are modelled at an unrealistic distance from the wheel rims they are going to make the assembly very tricky. I think I need to look at ways of making it possible to fit the brake gear after the wheels are in place - probably means putting threads on the back of the brake support pillars. I wonder how other modellers deal with the brakes on locos with outside motion? With a simple inside cylinder 0-6-0T it's possible to fiddle the wheel flanges past the brakes but on the K3 this is going to be difficult, if not impossible. I'd welcome any ideas.

 

Chaz

 

You could try modelling the GWR much less of that tricky outside motion

 

Seriously  The only though I have is a short piece of tube in the frame cut to hold the brake at the right point. so a brass pin could be pushed through the brake hange and then the tube and fixed with a touch of solder on the inside. You would probably need a dummy run with just the wheels to check the poisitions. This assumes none of the motion would block fitting the pin in.

Don

[chaz]

You could try modelling the GWR much less of that tricky outside motion

 

Seriously  The only though I have is a short piece of tube in the frame cut to hold the brake at the right point. so a brass pin could be pushed through the brake hange and then the tube and fixed with a touch of solder on the inside. You would probably need a dummy run with just the wheels to check the poisitions. This assumes none of the motion would block fitting the pin in.

Don

 

"You could try modelling the GWR much less of that tricky outside motion"  Hmm. One's choice of favourite railway is like one's choice of football club - logic doesn't enter into it - how else could so many people want to model the Swindon machines?

 

"The only though I have is a short piece of tube in the frame cut to hold the brake at the right point. so a brass pin could be pushed through the brake hange and then the tube and fixed with a touch of solder on the inside."   Yes, that would work, but I want to avoid solder if I can for the fitting - I anticipate the need to put the brakes on and take them off a few times before the loco' is released to traffic. I will be building up the brakes on a jig with the wheels out of the old frames to set them up. This will avoid the need to protect the Slater's steel wheel rims from the deprivations of soldering flux. It may be feasible to set the brake hangers in a bit so that the whole brake assembly is offered up from underneath and clips into place with a springing action.

 

Another thought I had is that the front brake hanger pivot pins at each end could be separate. They would be pushed through the brake hangers and the support tubes (already installed in the frames) and are secured on the inside with screws (with an action like the screws in a plug securing the wires). The centre pivot pins would be soldered to the hangers - they would be held in by the others.

 

Experiments will be done!

[Fettster42]

I have recently been painting a kit built by a mach smarter modeller than me. The brake gear was assembled off the rods underneath made from slightly springy material, with pins/rod at the top of the hangers. Adding removing is just a case of easing the pins out of holes and popping it off the bottom. So similar to the above suggestion, but rather than removal pins they are all in place and use the rods to hold it in place under tension.

 

Not sure how well would work on 7mm and this was 7mm, but narrow gauge so small gauge and wheelbase.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Leigh

 

P.S. The glass fibre replacements I got are expo ones so look like they are pre glued.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Fettster42

[2ManySpams]

You could try modelling the GWR much less of that tricky outside motion

 

Don, I honestly think that this is one of the reasons for the popularity of GWR - simple (or not visible) valve gear. Walschaerts looks so complicated and off-putting! 

[chaz]

I have recently been painting a kit built by a mach smarter modeller than me. The brake gear was assembled off the rods underneath made from slightly springy material, with pins/rod at the top of the hangers. Adding removing is just a case of easing the pins out of holes and popping it off the bottom. So similar to the above suggestion, but rather than removal pins they are all in place and use the rods to hold it in place under tension.

 

Not sure how well would work on 7mm and this was 7mm, but narrow gauge so small gauge and wheelbase.

 

Hope that makes sense.

 

Leigh

 

P.S. The glass fibre replacements I got are expo ones so look like they are pre glued.

 

Yes, it does make sense, thanks Leigh. I am thinking along similar lines. Rather than use a jig (as I suggested above) I may well build the brakes on the frames but with the old wheels reinstated. I think they are much the same size as the Slater's ones, but I will check.

Edited September 25, 2014 by chaz