Hayfields turnout workbench

[hayfield]

22 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

 

Thanks, Martin - how do you reliably get the edge back in line? I'm sure it's a finesse thing but I always seem to end up with some degree of concavity instead of flat plane on the face - because it's tapered even gripping with small pliers they rotate and 'crank' it rather than bending it per se.

 

 

This is after all, your thread @hayfield (by the way, what's your real name if you don't mind me asking? I'm going to Scaleforum and it would be good to say 'hi'!). If you decide not to do this, won't the tip of the vee have two nubs where the head and foot of the rail project over the web due to their increased thickness? Do you blunt it back to that point?

 William

 

John, do stop and have a chat. There is not much on the stand as Phil is at Stafford so plenty of time to chat

[hayfield]

On 23/09/2022 at 20:47, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi William,

 

Ideally yes. Otherwise you won't have a full depth of solid metal at the tip -- the rail web will form an undercut.

 

This is the process to get a solid tip (red is the rail web, yellow is the rail head and foot):

 

 

After filing the first face, bend it back into line with the rail edge.

 

If using a jig, put the bent rail the other way up back in the jig.

 

File the second face.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

The option to use this method of building a vee cropped up much earlier than I thought it would, I have been asked to build a 7mm scale 1-8 turnout in a Continental/USA style.

 

First up I have built the Vee as prescribed in the above post, being in 7mm scale and 1,75 flangeways, it can be seen if you look hard enough

 

 

I could not start to assemble the common crossing until I had a decent plan of the timbering

 

 

The issue was in my opinion is the plan I was sent was wrong, as the tip of the vee was in mid air between 2 timbers.

 

Closer timber spacing of 6mm was required, as said its in the "style" rather than being an exact replica. 8' long sleepers but 12" wide rather than 10" wide timbers

[hayfield]

 

I have made a start finishing off the common crossing, at timber position X (the knuckle) I have cut back the brass strip which holds the knuckle together, replaced the ply timber and fitted half chairs

 

 

This is the process, I am cutting back the brass strips flush with the outside of the rails

 

 

The strips have been cut back and filed back flush

 

 

Olastic timbers fitted and half chairs are in place locking all together.  The ply strip is a spacer

 

Next up are the switch rails (one is already fabricated & fitted) and check rails

[hayfield]

 

Unlike 4mm scale special chairs are hard to come by, even more so when the design differs from UK practice. Its just a case of chopping chairs into an acceptable shape for several timbers.

[martin_wynne]

54 minutes ago, hayfield said:

even more so when the design differs from UK practice

 

Hi John,

 

I'm puzzled. You are using UK-pattern bullhead rail and chairs. How is the design differing from UK practice? Is it a French design?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi John,

 

I'm puzzled. You are using UK-pattern bullhead rail and chairs. How is the design differing from UK practice? Is it a French design?

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Its the usual modellers licence, the chap is going to use Peco flexi track, cut down to 8' timbers, as I said its very much "in the style of" rather than an exact replica. I was given a plan to build to, I changed the sleepers so that the tip of the vee was supported and 6mm gap between 12" timbers, the plan had 6mm gap between 10" timbers. I did query the 8' timbers but in the end this is what was required (reverse of H0 track being used for 00)

 

Its the style that is required !!

[Lacathedrale]

Hi John, in one of your other threads you show the process of the EMGS alignment jig being used - but those photos are now lost to the sands of time. I've built my own jig  after having sat on the etch since January  - but I don't want to get myself in a twist doing it the wrong way first time and I can't find instructions anywhere...

 

[Tim Dubya]

4 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Hi John, in one of your other threads you show the process of the EMGS alignment jig being used - but those photos are now lost to the sands of time. I've built my own jig  after having sat on the etch since January  - but I don't want to get myself in a twist doing it the wrong way first time and I can't find instructions anywhere...

 

 

PM sent 👍

[hayfield]

 

The turnout is finished

 

 

The timber tiebar is much clearer to see in 7mm scale

 

 

The outside part of the chairs stay static, where as the switches (and slide plates) move

 

 

Long check rails were on the plan

[hayfield]

I have been seeing first hand what the future holds with 3D printed timbers and chairs. Its the brain child of Martin Wynn and Templot which he has and continues to develop, As I said its in the early stages of development so there is so much work to do. Join Templot club are read about it

 

https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/experimental-plug-track-3d-printed-cnc-milled-laser-cut.229/ Turnout timbers printed in plastic

 

  The chairs are resin printed

 

  Plug and play

 

  The test worked with the new C&L rail fine

 

 

This is a laser cut set of turnout timbers for this system, for those who prefer ply timbers

 

All I can say is I am  even more impressed having seen it first hand, BUT this is the future not now

 

 

[Tom D]

The idea of the laser cut turnout timbers with the resin chairs is really impressive. I am fortunate enough to have access to a laser printer, and have used it often for producing turnout timbers, but can I just mention, that the large size of apertures, for the resin chairs may be detrimental to the structural integrity of the wood.

 

I use 2 types of wood for turnout timbers, ply and basswood, ply is stronger, but basswood is a lot less expensive. However, basswood has a tendency to disintegrate when excess water/glue is applied to the area (specifically when applying ballast).

 

Again, I want to point out that I support this idea, and hope it can be brought to fruition.

 

Tom D

[martin_wynne]

3 hours ago, Tom D said:

Again, I want to point out that I support this idea,

 

Good. I can carry on then? 🙂

 

 

On 16/10/2022 at 16:47, hayfield said:

 

 

This is a laser cut set of turnout timbers for this system, for those who prefer ply timbers

 

Hi John,

 

I'm getting a bit concerned about the above. A lot of plywood has been wasted there because the sockets for the entire V-crossing area are complete junk. I haven't even looked at that area yet -- currently Templot is assuming it is two lengths of plain track overlaid. You need to cut all that part away and bin it -- I can't imagine any practical use for it.

 

The chairs you have there are for the 3D-printed timbering bases. I doubt they will work in laser-cut plywood as they stand unless James has adjusted the socket settings to match them. Ideally when resin-printing chairs the chair/socket fit settings need to be set up for the intended usage. For example for CNC-milled bases the chair plugs need an increased corner relief setting. Also, the slide chairs you have there are for EM. If that base is P4, they won't fit.

 

Also, what is the thickness of that plywood? For the plug-in assembly method to work as intended it needs to be 1/8" (3.2mm) thick -- as are those FDM printed bases and the chairs. In thinner plywood there are three problems -- it gets very much more fiddly to align the shorter plugs over the sockets; they will probably need to have smaller plugs to be glued in place because a press-fit will damage the thin ply socket sides; that it turn probably means the rails will need to be threaded in afterwards when the glue has set, like assembling a turnout kit. Which rules out having prototypical one-piece wing rails through the knuckle.

 

It's still far too experimental to go ahead and create an entire turnout base from the Templot files. It's just a waste of material. I feel folks are jumping ahead of me, and there seems to be a push towards laser-cut plywood which I don't share. I'm currently focused on FDM-printed and CNC milled bases -- for which I have the necessary bench-top machines here:

 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/ELEGOO-Printing-Function-Printers-220x220x280mm-Neptune-3/dp/B0B2PCCPJQ

 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Upgrade-Mostics-Controller-Software-300x180x45mm/dp/B08K95J434

 

 

 

 

Templot is my hobby and essentially for my own use, and I don't have a laser-cutter, especially not one capable of cutting 1/8" thick which I believe would be expensive, and unpleasant in use. I can't really develop Templot for something for which I can't do my own trial and error experiments. I've tended to assume that track-builders are much more likely to have an FDM printer and/or a benchtop CNC engraver/miller in their workshop, rather than an expensive laser-cutter, but maybe I'm wrong?

 

Here's a detail which is no problem for FDM printing or CNC milling, but would be trickier for plywood -- the steel soleplate on the switch toe timber:

It still needs the rib which is welded or riveted onto the end of the soleplate. That could be added with a bit of plastic card, but I'm planning to do a special version of the slide chair for the toe timber, having the rib integral with the chair base (including the rivet heads, which can be filed off for the more modern welded designs). GWR soleplates have the end of the plate forged up instead of a separate rib, but that will have to wait until I have done the GWR chairs.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Good. I can carry on then? 🙂

 

 

 

Hi John,

 

I'm getting a bit concerned about the above. A lot of plywood has been wasted there because the sockets for the entire V-crossing area are complete junk. I haven't even looked at that area yet -- currently Templot is assuming it is two lengths of plain track overlaid. You need to cut all that part away and bin it -- I can't imagine any practical use for it.

 

The chairs you have there are for the 3D-printed timbering bases. I doubt they will work in laser-cut plywood as they stand unless James has adjusted the socket settings to match them. Ideally when resin-printing chairs the chair/socket fit settings need to be set up for the intended usage. For example for CNC-milled bases the chair plugs need an increased corner relief setting. Also, the slide chairs you have there are for EM. If that base is P4, they won't fit.

 

Also, what is the thickness of that plywood? For the plug-in assembly method to work as intended it needs to be 1/8" (3.2mm) thick -- as are those FDM printed bases and the chairs. In thinner plywood there are three problems -- it gets very much more fiddly to align the shorter plugs over the sockets; they will probably need to have smaller plugs to be glued in place because a press-fit will damage the thin ply socket sides; that it turn probably means the rails will need to be threaded in afterwards when the glue has set, like assembling a turnout kit. Which rules out having prototypical one-piece wing rails through the knuckle.

 

It's still far too experimental to go ahead and create an entire turnout base from the Templot files. It's just a waste of material. I feel folks are jumping ahead of me, and there seems to be a push towards laser-cut plywood which I don't share. I'm currently focused on FDM-printed and CNC milled bases -- for which I have the necessary bench-top machines here:

 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/ELEGOO-Printing-Function-Printers-220x220x280mm-Neptune-3/dp/B0B2PCCPJQ

 

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Upgrade-Mostics-Controller-Software-300x180x45mm/dp/B08K95J434

 

 

 

 

Templot is my hobby and essentially for my own use, and I don't have a laser-cutter, especially not one capable of cutting 1/8" thick which I believe would be expensive, and unpleasant in use. I can't really develop Templot for something for which I can't do my own trial and error experiments. I've tended to assume that track-builders are much more likely to have an FDM printer and/or a benchtop CNC engraver/miller in their workshop, rather than an expensive laser-cutter, but maybe I'm wrong?

 

Here's a detail which is no problem for FDM printing or CNC milling, but would be trickier for plywood -- the steel soleplate on the switch toe timber:

It still needs the rib which is welded or riveted onto the end of the soleplate. That could be added with a bit of plastic card, but I'm planning to do a special version of the slide chair for the toe timber, having the rib integral with the chair base (including the rivet heads, which can be filed off for the more modern welded designs). GWR soleplates have the end of the plate forged up instead of a separate rib, but that will have to wait until I have done the GWR chairs.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Martin

 

I don.t like ply my self, but it is 3.27mm thick. I had not tried using any chairs in it and as I said in Templot club the top of the J chairs side walls have been burned away. I may be wrong but the hole looks to be wider at the top than bottom

 

I wrongly assumed the plug holes passed the switch areas had been worked out, my thought were to use standard and J chairs in their respective holes passed the slip and use commercially available special chairs for those not yet designed. Lesson learnt, be patient and wait. But it is a stunning bit of engineering and completely blown away any doubts I had

 

One question, I can see C switch PL chairs, have the A & B chairs been designed yet ? 

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

One question, I can see C switch PL chairs, have the A & B chairs been designed yet ? 

@hayfield

 

Hi John,

 

Sure. The fact that you ask this indicates how difficult I am finding it to explain plug track. I need someone else to write the words.

 

I said "I have now done the REA switches". i.e. the same program code works for all of them.

 

That means Templot can now create the 3D files for all the REA bullhead switches, sizes A - F, in ALL scales and gauges, curved onto ANY radius.

 

This is an E switch in an E-14 turnout in 0 gauge, curved onto 2000mm radius in the main road. You could make this now from Templot. And on as far as the wing-rail fronts. But not yet the rest of the turnout:

 

 

 

On each side there are 10 slide chairs, 9 switch block chairs, 8 bridge chairs, followed by the ordinary S1 chairs.

 

This is a closer view of a D switch:

 

 

At present REA switches only. But I'm hoping to get it working for the straight switches too (all of them), in the next program update.

 

But before anyone asks, no I haven't done GWR chairs yet. 🙂

 

I need to get the REA V-crossings and K-crossings done first. There is still a long way to go.

 

I also need to do a lot of writing and explaining, and making videos, showing exactly how you get Templot to do all this, and set up your 3D printer to make this stuff. I haven't done much of that yet because there didn't seem much point until it is possible to create a full turnout. Perhaps I'm wrong there? 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

I started another thread on building some contenital styled turnouts using UK parts for bullhead track

 

 

A smaller radii turnout designed in Templot based on a turnout drawing from a company in Liechtenstein, double sleepering and equalised timbering differs from UK practice, should also be 10" timbers but compromise's had to be made to use UK bullhead components 

 

 

I now have to at last get a grip on programming and fitting relays

 

 

[hayfield]

Warley

 

Well I gave in and agreed to go this year with Phil and his C&L stand. So if I am looking very bored come and have a chat

 

If you are thinking of ordering items to pick up at the show, do it next week as Phil said he is spending the week before Warley ensuring he has enough stock packed up for the show. 

 

If there is a fair wind there may be the odd surprise, anyway 3 days away from home and a very late night on the Sunday to look forward to

[Blandford1969]

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

Warley

 

Well I gave in and agreed to go this year with Phil and his C&L stand. So if I am looking very bored come and have a chat

 

If you are thinking of ordering items to pick up at the show, do it next week as Phil said he is spending the week before Warley ensuring he has enough stock packed up for the show. 

 

If there is a fair wind there may be the odd surprise, anyway 3 days away from home and a very late night on the Sunday to look forward to

At least you will be less likely to get the smelly ones than we are bound to see on another stand with a certain engine with us!

[hayfield]

Back from a very long weekend which was made very much longer as our van was held up for 2 hours before we could load. Great show and set of stewards and most of all I sold more turnout kits on Saturday alone than I have sold in total helping Phil out for the past few years (normally at specialist shows where parts were sold in volume)  Many first time track builders perhaps aided by Phil trailing a budget show special turnout

 

 

A smaller radii contenital turnout nearly completed, timber tiebar and servo needs fitting

 

 

 

Double slip in the process of being built

 

 

Closer look at the slip being built, it has made a nice change working in 7mm scale, with the aid of a bench sander and a sharp 10" file has made life much easier fabricating the rails

[dpgibbons]

Hi John - could you expand please on how you use your bench sander for rail filing?

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, dpgibbons said:

Hi John - could you expand please on how you use your bench sander for rail filing?

 

This is a simple task, the bench sander roughs the joint, finished in this case with a 10" file (&mm scale)

 

 

Mark a line all around the the rail (9mm in this case)  and sand one side to the web then bend straight. then sand the other side to nearly a sharp point. Martin has a set of diagrams on Templot Club which better explains

 

  

 

A simple home made jig for checking the angles. If using it for soldering then something other than plastic is required

 

As for switch rails I can only sand the rear of the blades, the planing length is taken off the plan in this case 51mm (7mm) the heads are easier to file by clamping to the bench with the safe edge in the web against the foot

 

The bench sander makes roughs, file to finish

[dpgibbons]

Thanks. What grit paper do you use on the sander?

[hayfield]

Its the one in the box and as you can see it needs changing, I will hunt out the box and reply

 

I will try and show more detailed photos but been away for 2 days at the inlaws

[hayfield]

On 12/11/2022 at 19:41, Blandford1969 said:

At least you will be less likely to get the smelly ones than we are bound to see on another stand with a certain engine with us!

 

What a busy weekend, seemed to have little time for myself, the stand was very busy on Saturday. I have been suggesting for some time he had a "show special" and this time he decided to go the whole hog and have a basic turnout kit including roller gauges, tiebars and plans, simply you have to make your own vees and and switch rails. Normally we sell components to existing builders and the odd turnout. This time it was just kits with some deciding to upgrade to a full kit

 

Many were just first time track builders and it seems a couple of clubs being keen on changing their trackwork to hand built. Also there was interest in migrating from 00 to EM.  plus a smattering of 7mm gauge kits

 

I have decided to join the Scale Seven Society and perhaps the Scalefour Society also

 

I also had a chat with a friend on the MERG stand trying to understand how to program servos.

 

Still great to see all who came up and say hello and hopefully I did not ignore too many.

 

A great show but sadly let down by the NEC in the organisation of loading up after the show, in our case and those near us  was a 2 hour waste of time. Plus for the paying visitor how can they justify £18 to park your car ? Shear greed in my opinion. Alley Pally is free and a courtesy bus is also provided. Nothing against the club or sponsors who put on a great show. But with the rail strike on there was limited alternatives to how get there.

 

Its 20 plus years since I last visited, would love to go back but not paying £18+ to park after 120 miles to get there. 

[Tim Dubya]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

I have decided to join the Scale Seven Society and perhaps the Scalefour Society also

 

The Scalefour Society is now my only modelling membership, due to the economic climate, and I think the only source of Exactoscale products?

 

I am still a member of the Southwestern Circle, but considering you get a book or two a year plus the magazine every couple of months for £17:50 a year, it's a damn good bargain 👍

[PjKing1]

42 minutes ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

The Scalefour Society is now my only modelling membership, due to the economic climate, and I think the only source of Exactoscale products?

 

I am still a member of the Southwestern Circle, but considering you get a book or two a year plus the magazine every couple of months for £17:50 a year, it's a damn good bargain 👍

The EM gauge society sell exactoscale products to, I’m still a member but I’m back making hand built track in OO gauge now.

 

Paul