oldknotty Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Ok guys i hope you are not fed up with me just yet but i have another problem with my DCC installs and i don not know what I am doing wrong??? I am trying to install an ESU lokpilot basic into my belle drive unit ,when I put the decoder in the socket and put it on the track it jerks slightly as i am trying to program it which i know is not right !! i tried to go through the program sequence using my NCE powercab it goes through all the procedures as usual but it jerks slightly with each setting .When i have completed the sequence it will neither light up nor run .When i return it ti Dc it runs perfectly ........... HELP ??? Frustration level is getting high over here !!! martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I don't use the Lok pilot myself, but have some experience with NCE. It's not unusual for decoders to give some indication that programming is tacking place. Slight jerking is fairly common in my experience, and I would not view this as an indicator as a fault without more evidence. What CVs are you tryng to programme? Are you using Programming on the Main (POM or Operations Mode) or Service Mode (Programming track)? I have found Service Mode to be most effective with PowerCab. The advantage is that you can read the decoder's CV as well as writing (programming) to them. This can give you more confidence that you have correctly entered new CVs. A further advantage is that very low power is used, so if there is a problem with a new installation, it will manifest this with inability to programme, rather than 'letting out the magic blue smoke'. Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojic Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Martin, Agree with Paul there. This is normal for a decoder to jerk forwards and backwards (very slightly) on a Programming Track when the command station is in programming mode, it reads the CV's of the decoder. If there is a short, the command station should shut off before the decoder lets out the blue smoke (fries). The majority of my decoders are ESU and also the Command Station 50200. By reading your comment, on it runs perfectly on DC but nothing on DCC, therefore this is telling me that the command station is not recognising the new address of the Lokpilot. Have you changed the CV address? If so, on normal running on DCC you would need to select the new address that you have changed from 3. Further, on DC, if the decoder is programmed to run on DC/DCC (it should be as it is a factory setting) it does not matter what address it is, so it will run. Try resetting the decoder CV08 to 08 the address would be re set to 3, then try and use the loco on DC track. Should be OK. Then try on DCC with controller set to address 3. Should be OK on that too. If all OK, then you can set address on programming track (or mode on controller) to what ever short address you want. Place on DCC track and select the address you have just programmed with the controller, all should be OK. Hope this helps. Note make sure no other locos are on DCC track when programming new loco (precaution or you could end up re setting all the locos on the track.) Dave 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 Thanks guys once again ...Man what would i do without this forum , being so far away from advice :-) Much appreciated i will give it a shot when i get back in later today !! martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 I reported some time back that I had problems with decoders in the Belle, I tried 5 different types before I got satisfactory results, surprisingly the 5th decoder was a Hornby Sapphire!!. having fitted many locos with decoders over the past 15 years or so I found this to be quite unusual. I found it nescessary to remove the capacitor form the side of the motor to obtain almost smooth running Be advised though when dropping the motor bogie from the chassis ( by closing the forks on the spigot from above) that no strain is placed on the 4 cables soldered to the motor block, the soldered joints are easily parted (as I discovered) I have fitted decoders to 3 Belles now and in each case have found that running is never as smooth as the Bachmann EMUs, also noted that the factory fitted Belle's performance is no different to the DCC ready ones ( with decoders fitted) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 I reported some time back that I had problems with decoders in the Belle, I tried 5 different types before I got satisfactory results, surprisingly the 5th decoder was a Hornby Sapphire!!. having fitted many locos with decoders over the past 15 years or so I found this to be quite unusual. I found it nescessary to remove the capacitor form the side of the motor to obtain almost smooth running Be advised though when dropping the motor bogie from the chassis ( by closing the forks on the spigot from above) that no strain is placed on the 4 cables soldered to the motor block, the soldered joints are easily parted (as I discovered) I have fitted decoders to 3 Belles now and in each case have found that running is never as smooth as the Bachmann EMUs, also noted that the factory fitted Belle's performance is no different to the DCC ready ones ( with decoders fitted) Who actually makes the Hornby sapphire decoders ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 Ok guys tried everything that you suggested and I have tried four brand new decoders and nothing will make this Hornby train move !! I put said decoders into other locos and they ran fine .Sooooo what to do next invest in a sapphire ??? who makes them and is there anything available here in the US that I can use ?? Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 here is a question are the units supposed to be attached to program rum or just the drive unit ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojic Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 OK, does all the units have an 8 pin scoket for the decoder or just the motor one? Have you tried an 8 pin blanking plug (supplied if DCC ready) on DC? The motor drive unit should be OK to programm on its own without attaching to other non powered one. If you have tried this, then suspect that the socket is faulty if all decoders work fine in other loco's. Is the belle the Brighton Belle i.e 2 car like this one. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R2988-Brighton-Belle-1967-2-Car-Pack-DCC-Ready-Brand-New-/320900511632?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item4ab7293790 I would imagine that there are no Hornby dealers nearby where you are. Have you thought about hard wiring the decoder? Information here http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/RP-9.1.1%202008.01.pdf look at table 2 for the pin numbers and colour wire.8 pin decoder. Pin 1 Orange wire (Motor R/H), Pin 5 Grey wire (Motor L/H), Pin 4 Black wire (Left pick up) Pin 8 Red wire (Right pick up). Pin 6 White wire (Front Headlight) Pin 2 Yellow wire (Rear Headlight) Pin 7 Blue wire (common for lights and function 1 Green wire, Function 2 Purple wire) Sometimes Hornby with the wires going to the socket are all the same colour so it is important to know where pin one should go. Hope this helps. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauliebanger Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Ok guys tried everything that you suggested and I have tried four brand new decoders and nothing will make this Hornby train move !! I put said decoders into other locos and they ran fine .Sooooo what to do next invest in a sapphire ??? who makes them and is there anything available here in the US that I can use ?? Martin Martin, You haven't told us if you have been able to set the address to one you can call up. I've had the embarrassment when working under pressure, of a 'dead' loco when I spent a lot of time investigating the fault only to find that the address had been changed without my knowledge. Basic, but easilly overlooked (the first time!!). Assuming you are calling the correct address, you have four decoders that work fine in other locos but fail to work in the 'Belle. The fault lies in the model. The model works fine on DC. I would investigate the DCC connector. It's unlikely any decoder will work if the fault does lie here. Examine the installed wires to check that there are no shorts - even a single strand touching the wrong place can be enough to stop a decoder working, where it has no effect on DC. It works OK on DC so all the wires must be correctly attached at their 'far' points, the 8 pin DCC connector introduces a break in the simple wiring to insert the decoder between track and motor. (The blanking plug closes this gap when inserted.) Check that all wires are firmly connected to the terminals on the socket. If you have a multimeter or circuit tester, check for continuity in all wires (to test soldered joints and for 'rogue' connections or shorts. Hard wiring is a step further than you may wish to go, but it would eliminate any potential problems with the socket. Good quality decoders should work OK with the standard electrical supression capacitors left in place. In some models, however, these caps can cause problems with programming and with slow running as the can 'confuse' the decoder. These caps have no useful function when running DCC as the decoder has far better supression built-in, so it will be safe to remove, even if this is not the cause of your problem. I remove all such caps as a matter of course when installing DCC - usually just a case of snipping through the wire, and insulating as necessary. Good luck, Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) First of all the motor jerking is what is known as ACKing or ACKnowledging the changes you are programming, it's a sort of Decoders CV punchbag. You can on most decoders program without a motor being connected but you will not be able to read back any CV values (If you do a full read of CV's on a sound loco you need about a yard of track but that's another story.) If the loco is jerking I do not think you have a short in the motor connections because that is exactly what is supposed to happen and the track feed is fine as that would shut down. All that is left to short are the lights and you can smoke those circuits without affecting the rest of the decoder. Lke Paul I too am wondering whether you have applied an address incorrectly. In Program track mode you change the CV's on EVERYTHING on the track irrespective of the addresses, some even call it BLAST mode. But let's say you entered the wrong address, say 0100 but thought you had entered 1000, the result would be that the decoder would respond to programming track entries but not to the throttle, nor to programming in OPS mode, ie on the main. You can check the number of the decoder the normal way PROG/ESC > 4 > Enter > 1. Or you could simply go (preferred route) PROG/ESC > 4 > Enter > 2 then CV8=8 > Enter and recycle the power, (the factory reset for most though not all decoders) That will bring the address back to 003. You will lose all previous settings but the decoder won't be harmed in any way. If it doesn't work curse silently under your breath and come back. Mark K Edited May 25, 2012 by Mark K 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Ok guys tried everything that you suggested and I have tried four brand new decoders and nothing will make this Hornby train move !! I put said decoders into other locos and they ran fine .Sooooo what to do next invest in a sapphire ??? who makes them and is there anything available here in the US that I can use ?? Martin Hi Martin Firstly, put back in the dc blanking plug and make sure the drive unit runs on dc track. If it doesn't then you have a wiring fault, it will never run with a DCC decoder until this is fixed. Report back if ok. here is a question are the units supposed to be attached to program rum or just the drive unit ??? You only need the drive unit, the connections between coaches only supply power to the table lamps (and head code on the BR/Blue version). Ray. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I dont think the manufacturer of Hornby's sapphire has been identified on here? For info the Hornby DCC on board version of the Belle uses the standard Hornby economy decoder, ( dont have access to the instruction sheet of my Blue Belle at the momnet so cannot quote the R Number, but it is stated in the Hornby section in the Belle thread) When I received my Decoder on board example the initial running was NOT brilliant!! Which was a surprise, so there was quite a bit of work to do adjusting the CVs for start voltage/ acceleration/ deceleration etc. I also removed the capacitor, running now is better but not as good as i would like it to be especially at slow speeds, Someone did mention that there was some talk somewhere that the 2 large LEDs which supply the lighting input for the fibre optic table lamps may have a bearing on decoder performance, I have no opinion on this as although there is a slight improvement on running with lights OUT, it is not a significant improvement. I just wish that the Belle had been manufactured by the 'other' main manufacturer!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 Well tried a couple more decoders in the belle and NOTHING still , now the table lamps do not come on even on DC .I am not about to hard wire it as that may void the guarantee !! i am pretty disgusted with this very expensive , for me , static model i have !!!! You better believe Hornby has heard from me and i await a reply .Maybe same as my class 31's parts in two years who knows ?? Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Hi Martin. Does it run on DC, (Unplug the decoder and put the original blanking plug in)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted June 3, 2012 Author Share Posted June 3, 2012 Hi Martin. Does it run on DC, (Unplug the decoder and put the original blanking plug in)? Yes it runs on DC but no table lamps come on , I talked to hattons and they are going to replace it for me , they ALWAYS come through , great folks there !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 As a matter of interest do the 2 light sources for the Fibre Optics ( for the table lamps) illuminate OK these are 2 largish leds under the floor area in the non cab end I have heard that in some cases the fibre optic cables have been misaligned hence no light is getting to the lamps! One of our Belles has been sent to a new home Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Yes it runs on DC but no table lamps come on , I talked to hattons and they are going to replace it for me , they ALWAYS come through , great folks there !! Hopefully, you'll have more luck with the replacement. Let us know how you get on. Out of interest mine is using a Lenz Silver + decoder and is giving acceptable slow running after a bit of CV tweeking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 Sent this email to Hornby about my brand new brighton Belle I am sure that i made myself fairly clear ??? Recently purchased the Hornby pullman five car set from hattons of liverpool . Upon receipt of my model I tried to install a DCC decoder a ESU Lokpilot basic which i use on ALL my non sound locos .it does not run on DCC at all .I tried several other decoders all from existing locos which run great .It will run on Dc but no interior table lights will work. This is the reply I got it makes no sense to me at all ???? Thank you for your email and I apologise for the delay in responding. I believe the model you are referring to is the Brighton Belle. If so there is no issue with this model as the interior lights work on F1; which with sound decoders turns the sound on this is why you cannot access the interior lights. You may be able to re-map this function but you would have to speak with LokSound. Am I wrong or is this reply not answering my question ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) It appears that th writer at Hornby is not familiar with the difference between LOKPILOT & LOK SOUND decoders!! Edited June 6, 2012 by Stevelewis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 The response doesn't surprise me at all. With each release I seem to lose faith in Hornby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojic Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 It appears that th writer at Hornby is not familiar with the difference between LOKPILOT & LOK SOUND decoders!! :laugh: Ok try this CV 29 set to 6 (Should be default) if is is set to 6 iit will operate speed steps and DC as well as DCC Just also like to add If you have the Full set of carriages these are not with lit lamps. The three extra carriages do not light up. This link is for the English language Manual for the Lokpilot Basic if you did not get one? http://www.tagspecialisten.com/923f5e17-8f43-46a5-a818-b2e6fee8a211 With the Lokpilot the lights maybe on a fuction other than FO forward and FO reverse these may not operate on DC Hope this sorts it out????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed a/c Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 :laugh: Ok try this CV 29 set to 6 (Should be default) if is is set to 6 iit will operate speed steps and DC as well as DCC Just also like to add If you have the Full set of carriages these are not with lit lamps. The three extra carriages do not light up. This link is for the English language Manual for the Lokpilot Basic if you did not get one? http://www.tagspecialisten.com/923f5e17-8f43-46a5-a818-b2e6fee8a211 With the Lokpilot the lights maybe on a fuction other than FO forward and FO reverse these may not operate on DC Hope this sorts it out????? Is this correct? Is so surely has to another blunder from Hornby Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojic Posted June 6, 2012 Share Posted June 6, 2012 Is this correct? Is so surely has to another blunder from Hornby This is what I got back from Oliviers "David, The Umber & Cream for some strange reason does not come with Working Lights. It is something we could get done but at an additional cost & we would have to send it away for a Template" Thats where I got muddled up so my appologies R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack Each Car is lit and complete with detailed interior. Extra Cars R4512 Addional coach for the R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack No interior Lighting. R4513 "Doris" Addional coach for the R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack 1St Class has illuminated Lamps R4514 "Hazel" Addional coach for the R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack 1St Class has illuminated Lamps Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted June 6, 2012 Author Share Posted June 6, 2012 This is what I got back from Oliviers "David, The Umber & Cream for some strange reason does not come with Working Lights. It is something we could get done but at an additional cost & we would have to send it away for a Template" Thats where I got muddled up so my appologies R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack Each Car is lit and complete with detailed interior. Extra Cars R4512 Addional coach for the R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack No interior Lighting. R4513 "Doris" Addional coach for the R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack 1St Class has illuminated Lamps R4514 "Hazel" Addional coach for the R2987/X 1934 Pullman Brighton Belle Train Pack 1St Class has illuminated Lamps And they are all the same price and they all have the electrical connections on the coupler . Another S.N.A.F.U. from Hornby it seems ??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now