oldknotty Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 I am trying to figure out the measurements for some model buildings and as i am useless at math i am in a bind :-) I am using Slaters embossed red brick sheets .I do not have any actual measurements but i can count bricks on photographs . The thing is if i used the brick count and then use the brick size and do the math they are not even close to the same size when applied to slaters sheet ?? what am i doing wrong here and how do i actually get true dimensions ?? Thanks martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 The biggest trouble with counting bricks, to size a building you need to know how big the bricks are. The are normally81/2" x 4" x 21/2". But there are many other sizes. Also American bricks are a different size to English ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 The biggest trouble with counting bricks, to size a building you need to know how big the bricks are. The are normally81/2" x 4" x 21/2". But there are many other sizes. Also American bricks are a different size to English ones. The houses are council houses in Stoke on trent so the bricks would be standard size ones , my problem is that the bricks on slaters are a scale 8 1/2 x 4 x 41/2 (as stated on wikipedia ??? ) but when i count bricks it does not come up the same as if i measure them and scale to OO ?? martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Most, if not all injection moulded and embossed brick sheets have over scale mortar courses. A real life 3/8" mortar course would scale down to just under 5 thou and 1/2" mortar course to just over 6 thou, therefore counting bricks can add as much as 20mm to the length of a station building. In most cases, I use the door as a reference 6 foot 8 inch which scales to 26.6mm. This method may not be totally accurate, but at least, all your buildings will have a look of the same scale. When using the counting bricks method, make comparisons with measurements determined by either method. Hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SquireBev Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Yep, the mortar courses on slaters sheets are pretty vast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 It doesn’t matter what the Slaters' measurements are, the size of the real building can be determined from counting the real brick courses. What happens after that is up to the modeller. If using Slaters' embossed sheet then you have to accept a different number of brick courses to the original. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 The standard size for machine-made bricks in the UK, at least since the later 18th century, is 81/2" x 4" x 2 1/2". The one sat at my feet corresponds to these measurements within 1/16". You are very unlikely to encounter one of the brick bonds where the 81/2" x 4" face is visible, so you will usually see a stretcher at 81/2" x 2 1/2", or a header at 4" x 2 1/2". When sizing a building by counting bricks, allow a half inch mortar course, so each stretcher represents 9" x 3", and a header 41/2" x 3".. I was surprised to find that the sample of Slater's stretcher bond (all bricks show the 81/2" x 2 1/2" face) that I've just pulled out of a drawer corresponds quite closely to these measurements*. Not only that, the vertical joins are at very close to ninety degrees. I mention this because some folk have found, particularly in recent years, that some sheets are someway out in this respect. Unfortunately, I don't have samples of any other bonds to check. Nick * I took several measurements over eight courses, all within a few percent of 8mm (2' at 4mm scale). Similarly over four headers, all were very close to 12mm (3' at 4mm scale). Edit to add that today, bricks are of course specified in millimetres and the 'standard' mortar gap is 10mm. However, feet and inches are much easier if working in 4mm or 2mm scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 OK. lets have another guess as to why there may be variations in Slater's embossed sheets. It's quite possible that plastic embossed sheets are manufactured by an operator feeding plain plastic sheet through heated rollers. Slight variations would occur depending on the experience of the operator. Whether your measurements are determined by counting bricks in photographs or height of the door, use that measurement when marking your sheet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Most, if not all injection moulded and embossed brick sheets have over scale mortar courses. A real life 3/8" mortar course would scale down to just under 5 thou and 1/2" mortar course to just over 6 thou, therefore counting bricks can add as much as 20mm to the length of a station building. In most cases, I use the door as a reference 6 foot 8 inch which scales to 26.6mm. This method may not be totally accurate, but at least, all your buildings will have a look of the same scale. When using the counting bricks method, make comparisons with measurements determined by either method. Hope this helps. You have to be careful with doors too. The standard British size is 6' 6"" tall. But then there are variations on that too. Best if you can measure one part like a door or a window then scale from that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 It doesn’t matter what the Slaters' measurements are, the size of the real building can be determined from counting the real brick courses. What happens after that is up to the modeller. If using Slaters' embossed sheet then you have to accept a different number of brick courses to the original. But you still need to know the brick size to be able to scale by counting bricks. I have had to use bricks for in fill that were 4 coarses to 3 of the existing coarses. Lucky it was just for a blocked up doorway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Also on high quality brickwork, such as found in public buildings and railway stations, the mortar joints are "penny joints" that is about 1/4" at the most. The standard brick for high quality work is 9"x3"x4.5". Modern bricks are smaller. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 But you still need to know the brick size to be able to scale by counting bricks. I have had to use bricks for in fill that were 4 coarses to 3 of the existing coarses. Lucky it was just for a blocked up doorway. I agree. Just making an assumption in brick size can be too coarse a calculation. However once you know the brick size then counting brick courses is quite accurate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Also on high quality brickwork, such as found in public buildings and railway stations, the mortar joints are "penny joints" that is about 1/4" at the most. Yes, they are found on some public buildings and maybe even some railway stations, but the majority of such buildings use the standard size I mentioned above. Remember also that many such buildings were built before the introduction of cavity walls and the bond used will also play a part in measurements. The standard brick for high quality work is 9"x3"x4.5". Modern bricks are smaller. I've read that several times and just cannot make sense of it. Do you mean all brickwork using standard sized bricks is sub-standard quality? What do you mean by modern? I suspect, though, that such diversions are not going to be much help to oldknotty another recent post of his referred to a mid-20th century council house. The street view photo in that thread clearly shows a cavity wall with stretcher bond using standard sized bricks. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Thanks Nick i think i will go with the standard brick at 8 1/2 x 4 x 21/2 that wi8ll fit the bill and the size corresponds roughly with the Skaledale building that i have on my layout . I have to do the brick count as i am 4000 miles away from measuring a brick ,door or window on Newstead housing estate :-) martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Yes, they are found on some public buildings and maybe even some railway stations, but the majority of such buildings use the standard size I mentioned above. Remember also that many such buildings were built before the introduction of cavity walls and the bond used will also play a part in measurements. I've read that several times and just cannot make sense of it. Do you mean all brickwork using standard sized bricks is sub-standard quality? What do you mean by modern? I suspect, though, that such diversions are not going to be much help to oldknotty another recent post of his referred to a mid-20th century council house. The street view photo in that thread clearly shows a cavity wall with stretcher bond using standard sized bricks. Nick Having been in the building industry it is only mordern machine made bricks that are of a consistant size. They then varied between the manufacturers. In Swange the brickworks (Ibstock) produce hand mades that are huge compared to their machine ones. London Brick Co's never matched the local machine made sand and limes or coursing bricks. Then add to that any metric bricks which again are readily available but again a different size. So even today it is hard to get counting bricks without knowing the size. Also these days there is not a foreman with a gauge stick making sure the brick layers are doing it right. With older buildings you will quite often find that the mortar joint is brick red and the pointing has been piped on like icing, as the bricks were not consistant enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Evening all, Quick post as I've just had a call from a doctor at A&E in Colchester General. They've been checking all the results of yesterday's scans and it would appear that the cancer has affected the bones in my neck and one is apparently broken in a dangerous place, and I'm awaiting collection by ambulance as we speak to be taken in a neck brace to hospital. Could this be why I've had a headache all this time? I have to be very, very careful as the doctor seemed very concerned - although I must confess that I most certainly haven't been that careful as I was cleaning and polishing the several glass tables we have in the lounge this afternoon! No idea what is going on yet but I'll probably be missing for a while. I will obviously update you when I know what the outcome is, but if you recall from when I was in before, I will have no internet connection while at the hospital. Stay well everyone, Kind regards, Jock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 I hope everything goes well, hopefully they will be able to insert braces into the neck to support it all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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