Black Country Blues

[2ManySpams]

Very nice to see that level of detail added to something non-train.

[2ManySpams]

Thanks for the feedback.

The gates will be redone, though I'm using cheap acrylics rather than Humbrol enamels.

 

Chris,

For the derelict building, how big is the available floor space ?

I'm guessing 100mm wide, but how long ( along the road ) ?

 

How long would you like? (Ooer missus)

[mikeh]

While considering the local traffic flows for Mark's operations thread it occured to me to suggest a slight re-writing of Andy's history here.

 

Instead of diverting the Darlaston Loop to meet the P & O line I would have thought the new line would leave the Loop at Woods Bank Jn and join the P & O at Gospel Oak Jn. The loop would still continue to Wednesbury enabling the route to still carry Patent Shaft traffic. Instead of being down graded, the loop was upgraded to carry the additional traffic to Trafalgar Sidings and the heavy traffic from Bescot to Spring Vale and the Stour Valley. The junction at Gospel Oak would just face Tipton as the Wednesbury curve would not really be of much operational use.

 

This would justify I larger range of traffic passing through I would think.

 

Just a thought?

 

Regards

Mike

Edited December 4, 2012 by mikeh

[DonB]

In the backscene "touch-up", should the floodlight towers at Walsall football ground (Fellows Park, precurser to, and half a mile away from, Bescot stadium) appear somewhere close to the twin cooling towers of the power station?

[Mark Forrest]

Sounds good to me Mike, lets see what the others think.

[Mark Forrest]

If such trains are running through BCB, ( and not knowing anything of the geography or railway of the area) will you be modelling some wagons with brakes in the pinned down state ?

I did consider it, but I think punters at exhibitions will be so busy admiring the toilets with real running water and working flush in the buildings in the foreground they will hardly notice the rolling stock in the background.

[2ManySpams]

Would it permit the passage of Bulleid's finest?

[Mark Forrest]

I assume you are thinking of blocks of Presflos Mark, but these were replaced by PCA type air braked tanks later in the 1980s. Pairs of 24s, then 25s were replaced by pairs of 20s then class 56s on the Penyffordd flows whilst class 47s worked the Earles-Handworth flow, occasonally supplemented by pairs of 33s on the Tuesday only Northfleet-Handsworth service, worked by Banbury men. At a push I suppose you could route the loads from Northfleet straight on at Perry Barr and Bescot, then tun left at Darlaston !!!

 

Yes, Presflos for the '70s (although I do also have a handful of PCA, but I'll save them for another time). I have a few Blue Circle ones (which might crop up on their way to somewhere else), but I'll keep an eye out for some Castle or Tunnel too.

 

There were trains of oil into the Patent Shaft and I believe Ned Williams has published a photograph of a TTG 47 on some 100 ton tanks in the Patent Shaft works.

I think there is such a photo in John Boynton's Mainline to Metro; 7M40 IIRC

 

Not a very useful caption but I imagine this floats your boat Mark ?

You know I like my Rats!

 

Whilst googling cement train Shrewsbury, I came across this enticing image, which has very little to do with the topic, but look at the very clean Cravens DPU in the image with a pre BR van as tail traffic.

 

http://www.derbysulz...hrewsbury73.jpg

The Cravens unit is interesting; there's a great colour photo of one at Stafford in one of the books I've looked at recently and it occured to me that I don't know much about their sphere of operation.

 

Presume you have seen this image ?

Oh yes, very nice indeed

[Stubby47]

Mikkel - yep, it's Wills.

 

Chris - about 150mm ok ?

[mikeh]

Unfortunately not - Cashmores was on the South Staffs.....

[Mark Forrest]

Unfortunately not - Cashmores was on the South Staffs.....

A shame though, I'm after an excuse for one of the LMS twins:

[mikeh]

M55998 was at Ryecroft until March 67, then moved to Chester, to Newton Heath 12/68 then back to Chester 10/71 until withdrawn 10/73

 

In 1964 the Ryecroft diagram was:

3G25 0210 MX Ryecroft MPD-Walsall 0213 C7

3G25 0302 MX Walsall-Bham NS 0322 C7

1G80 0400 MX Bham NS-Walsall 0422 A4 News

3G17 0530 MX Walsall-Wvh HL 0545 C7

3G15 0610 MX Wvh HL-Walsall 0616 C7

3G09 0755 EWD Dudley-Wvh HL 0842 C7

3G01 0857 EWD Wvh HL-BhamNS 0928 C1

3B03 1025 EWD Bham NS-Rugby Mid 1135 C1 (1132 SO)

3G15 1239 EWD Rugby Mid-Coventry 1314 C1

3G10 1332 EWD Coventry-Bham NS 1408 C1 (1411 SO)

3G11 1420 EWD BhamNS-Wvh HL 1520 C1

3G69 1550 SO Wvh HL-Ryecroft MPD 1607 C7

3G14 1645 SX Wvh HL-Tipton Owen St 1653 C1

3G14 1808 SX Tiptn O S-Walsall 1826 C2

3G28 1905 SX Walsall-Cannock 1918 C8

3G28 1932 SX Cannock-Walsall 1945 C8

3G18 2005 SX Walsall-Wvh HL 2020 C7

3G12 2030 SX Wvh HL-Walsall 2045 C7

3G12 2120 SX Walsall-Bham NS 2142 C4

3G69 2204 SX BhamNS-Ryecroft MPD 2234 C7

 

(C8 etc being the headcode)

 

In the 71/72 WTT a Chester 129 worked:

4G29 0900 EWD Salop-Wvh HL 0952

4D29 1105 EWD Wvh HL-Chester

4H29 1422 SX Chesetr-Wvh PCD 1719

4D29 1750 SX Wvh PCD-Chester

4G29 1422 SO Chester-Wvh HL 1650

4D29 1805 SO Wvh HL-Chester

 

Regards

Mike

[Mark Forrest]

A few things I've spotted on flickr while I've been researching - interesting mix of wagons in these two photos:

class 31diesel with indicator code 7M80 on freight at Bescot May 1975 by hermeticdream, on Flickr

brush 4 on mixed goods train at Bescot 1970s by hermeticdream, on Flickr

 

Milk tanks were a bit of a surprise, but there is a photo of a 85 on them in one of Ned Williams' books too - so maybe more common than I thought?

Bescot freight yard with tanker train 1977 by hermeticdream, on Flickr

[Guest Phil]

Unfortunately not - Cashmores was on the South Staffs.....

A shame though, I'm after an excuse for one of the LMS twins:

http://www.flickr.co...ion/6260852227/

 

There actually isn't a problem with the LMS twins Mark. They worked off Bushbury with Wolverhampton - Euston expresses, so there is no reason for them not to have been diverted due to W.E.W. I have seen photos of at least one of them thundering though Bloomfield on a Down Euston-Wolves express, so there is no reason why it couldn't have been diverted via Tipton Curve and Princes End.

 

Mikeh's suggestion does make a whole lot of sense to me, and instantly opens up your scope, but it is your trainset.

[Guest Phil]

Thanks for the DPU diagrams Mike.

As Mike says M55998 was one of the trio of Cravens class 129 cars, the only one based in the West Midlands.

 

The GRCW class 128s were very regular performers, and were more useful in that they shared blue square controls with the majority of local DMUs.

 

 

IIRC 7M80 was a Gloucester-Bescot service, and this might explain the empty gunpowder van and the loaded sheeted china clay wagons, if this was a train from the west via the "Midland" and Sutton Park.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Phil

[Mark Forrest]

In the 71/72 WTT a Chester 129 worked:

<snip>

4H29 1422 SX Chesetr-Wvh PCD 1719

4D29 1750 SX Wvh PCD-Chester

<snip>

 

Now we're talking! So BCB can have my 128; I need a 129 for my WLL project!

Photo I was thinking of is M55999 at Stafford in 1969 with a maroon BR CCT on its tail (in British Rail in Colour 1968-80) displaying headcode C4.

[5 C]

At the risk of opening a whole new can of worms, has any thought been given to buses on BCB?

 

I'm not sure if the location would be on a bus route and there's always the danger of cliche but a bus would add to that sense of place . This would be especially true if it were a BMMO designed vehicle purportedly allocated to one of the Black Country Midland Red depots passed to West Midlands PTE in 1973.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Andy

[Guest Phil]

Now we're talking! So BCB can have my 128; I need a 129 for my WLL project!

Photo I was was thinking of was M55999 at Stafford in 1969 with a maroon BR CCT on its tail (in British Rail in Colour 1968-80) displaying headcode C4.

 

Sounds right Mark.

There are published photos of the Ryecroft based Cravens car in New St too, on 12T vans as well as NPCCS.

 

I do need a Cravens car but the also have a green class 128 and a partbuilt 128 with the basis of a lengthened Bachmann Sulzer type 2 chassis.

[mikeh]

Mark

 

Do you have a definitive year for the layout yet? I would be interested in producing a WTT for the line if it would help?

 

Early to mid 70s would be busier than later as the rundown of the Bilston steelworks had a big impact on traffi and ulimately lead to closure.

 

In 1973/74 Spring Vale had the following traffic

Limestone from Derby St Marys (from Wirksworth),

Coke from Treeton or Parkgate (Y service)

Iron Ore from Wellingborough

Coal from Toton (run down to a Q path - finished by October)

Plus Bescot Targets 27, 32, 23 & 29 SX and 34 and 22 (twice) SO

 

 

By being a bit elastic with reality we could add a few other flows such as Naptha to Tipton Gas,(ceased by 75), pig iron Dagenham Dock-Oldbury (finished 74), tubes Corby-Oldbury (finished 75) and run more traffic to New Depot - there was also Fawley to New Depot for a short while with oil for Esso at Priestfield.around 69/70 (booked a 25 from Banbury though!).

 

South Staffs Wagon at Bloomfield would be a good excuse to run any type of tank wagon, PCA/PDAs even carflats for repair. - the trip from Bescot arrived 0830 dep 0905 in the mid 70s.

Five Ways yard at Bloomfield closed in 1968 but could well have been used for a Tunnel Cement terminal - block train from Tring MWFO??

 

Could probably come up with a few more if thats not enough to be going on with??

 

Regards

Mike

[mikeh]

Now we're talking! So BCB can have my 128; I need a 129 for my WLL project!

Photo I was thinking of is M55999 at Stafford in 1969 with a maroon BR CCT on its tail (in British Rail in Colour 1968-80) displaying headcode C4.

 

Nearest the 128s got in the 70s was

4V02 1058 SO Curzon St-Worcs SH

4V02 1155 SX Curzon St-Worcs SH

6M17 1312 SO Worc SH-Curzon St 1431

6M17 1412 SX Worc SH-Curzon St 1527

 

Went via Galton & Kiddy ISTR

 

Can't really see a plausible reason one would go down your railway unfortunately

 

Regards

Mike

[mikeh]

Interesting Phil, so was that coke from Avenue to Stewarts & Lloyds at Spring Vale/Bilston? Avenue was built as a low temperature carbonisation plant specifically to produce household smoke less fuel. I'm surprised that the coke it produced was of suitable quality for metallurgical use. Nothing to do with BCB, just of interest to me

 

 

Hi ArthurI

think Phil is getting confused with the Pargate/Treeton flow I mentioned above.

It also ran from Beighton and or Tinsley at different times.

8Z29 would be a clue as Avenue was on the LMR....

 

Regards

Mike

[Guest Phil]

I reckon a Midland Red D9 would be useful, as well as one of these ;

 

http://www.modelbuszone.co.uk/efe/dd/237/img/24201f.jpg

 

Strictly speaking I believe, most of these were double door vehicles, but I am not fussed and have a couple in store for use around Tipton and Coneygre

[Mark Forrest]

Do you have a definitive year for the layout yet? I would be interested in producing a WTT for the line if it would help?

 

Early to mid 70s would be busier than later as the rundown of the Bilston steelworks had a big impact on traffi and ulimately lead to closure.

A WTT would be fantastic!

We initially (vaguely) said "mid '70s", we have some BAAs which puts us post '73 I think; 1974 - 76 that would probably suit most of the stock we currently have available, so how about 1975?

[Mark Forrest]

Nearest the 128s got in the 70s was

4V02 1058 SO Curzon St-Worcs SH

4V02 1155 SX Curzon St-Worcs SH

6M17 1312 SO Worc SH-Curzon St 1431

6M17 1412 SX Worc SH-Curzon St 1527

 

Went via Galton & Kiddy ISTR

 

Can't really see a plausible reason one would go down your railway unfortunately

Oh well, I'll save that kit for another rainy day (or when we back date to the '60s!)

[Guest Phil]

Hi ArthurI

think Phil is getting confused with the Pargate/Treeton flow I mentioned above.

It also ran from Beighton and or Tinsley at different times.

8Z29 would be a clue as Avenue was on the LMR....

 

Regards

Mike

 

Hmmm

You learn summat every day !!! I always thought Avenue was Eastern Region. Blows my theory out of the water then - thanks Mike.

 

There was a local photographer who lived at Horseley Fields near Tipton, who showed me several photos of coke trains at Princes End with the headcode 8Z29. 31s and 37s, which led me to think they were ER trains with ER power.