Black Country Blues

[Mark Forrest]

West Midlands steam officially finished in March 1967. Ex-GWR types were virtually gone a couple of years earlier.

 

Mention of ex-GWR types caught my attention as I would like to see one or two included.  However, from the little bit of research done so far it is looking like they were uncommon on the ex-LMS lines in the area despite the ex-GWR lines (and sheds) having passed to LMR management.

 

 

Presumably a small shift forward in time to say late 80s, very early 90s would be feasible without changing the layout. 37 & 47s on short air braked steel workings (eg the Bilston, Round Oak and similar), engineers workings behind dilapidated 20s & 31s, household coal HEAs & FPAs, scrap metal in 16Ts, MDVs or SSAs and then maybe some through traffic - MOD, speedlink, cartics (for repair perhaps), 31s on parcels, cement, electrification trains to/from the cross city line and then if roundy-roundy then 58s on MGRs, 47s on Freightliners.

 

When we first discussed the layout the idea that it might one day be able to cover the entire nationalisation to privatisation period was mooted (I think we'd been drinking).  You're right it would probably be possible and there is some stock to suit that era within the group.  It might happen, one day, but it's not our immediate focus.

 

 

I would imagine that the future for BCB would depend heavily on whether its creators see themselves as creationalists or operators and whether they have enjoyed their experiences sufficiently to want to do more together. There is a good argument for saying that BCB was well conceived/executed and that the process of creating layouts in this way is the main act...therefore sell BCB and improve the process/maintain newsworthy-ness by moving on to the next project.

 

It's an interesting point Dave, must admit I didn't foresee selling it being one of the suggested next steps put forward when starting this thread 

For me it is all about research and making stuff (mainly rolling stock in my case), but think it's fair to say we also enjoy a bit of showing off, not to mention the social element of being out there on the exhibition circuit.

 

....or else seize the opportunity Don....maybe a bespoke layout exactly fitting everyones available space is the next 'big thing' for this group. How many modellers don't have to make compromises on space available/work with materials that won't suffer in less than perfect storage environments?

 

 

I think it'd be a challenge to find another project that we'd all get behind in the same way as we did with BCB.  At the last count our future projects (some of which were put on hold while we built BCB) were in 3 different scales and 5 different gauges.  I expect (hope) that the future, other than continuing to work together to improve BCB, looks like a combined effort to capitalise on our individual strengths to complete these individual projects to a standard that we are happy with.

[wagonbasher]

Mention of ex-GWR types caught my attention as I would like to see one or two included.  However, from the little bit of research done so far it is looking like they were uncommon on the ex-LMS lines in the area despite the ex-GWR lines (and sheds) having passed to LMR management.

 

 

 

 

When we first discussed the layout the idea that it might one day be able to cover the entire nationalisation to privatisation period was mooted (I think we'd been drinking).  You're right it would probably be possible and there is some stock to suit that era within the group.  It might happen, one day, but it's not our immediate focus.

 

 

 

 

It's an interesting point Dave, must admit I didn't foresee selling it being one of the suggested next steps put forward when starting this thread 

For me it is all about research and making stuff (mainly rolling stock in my case), but think it's fair to say we also enjoy a bit of showing off, not to mention the social element of being out there on the exhibition circuit.

 

 

 

I think it'd be a challenge to find another project that we'd all get behind in the same way as we did with BCB.  At the last count our future projects (some of which were put on hold while we built BCB) were in 3 different scales and 5 different gauges.  I expect (hope) that the future, other than continuing to work together to improve BCB, looks like a combined effort to capitalise on our individual strengths to complete these individual projects to a standard that we are happy with.

Mark there are tears streaming from my eyes... Are we up to this scrutiny, this physiological analysis. I just want to drink beer, eat pies and play trains.

 

Ps I also like steam, dcc, wagons, exhibitions, plasticard modelling and wagons... Did I say wagons twice?

 

Andy

[Steve-e]

How about Roundy,Roundy but scenary on all sides including the 'Fiddle Yard' which can be a modelled yard/exchange sidings thus more scope for the fantastic buildings that appeared?   although you may need 1 or 2 sidings behind the backscene to save the 'Hand of God' coming down to place stock on the line.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Mention of ex-GWR types caught my attention as I would like to see one or two included.  However, from the little bit of research done so far it is looking like they were uncommon on the ex-LMS lines in the area despite the ex-GWR lines (and sheds) having passed to LMR management.

.

Quite a lot of it was due to clearance issues with the width across the cylinders being a big problem. They tended to remove the copings from platform ramps on non-GW lines. That being said, we used to get Halls working into the Saltley area on freights quite often. A County reached Walsall on one occasion and Prairies worked into Dudley from Snow Hill via the Souith Staffs. I saw a picture of a 94xx tank heading through Galton Jn witn a footex for Witton, and the Leamington-Nuneaton service at the other side of Birmingham is said to have produced the odd Large Prairie and a Collett Goods.

Edited February 20, 2014 by TheSignalEngineer

[Mark Forrest]

Quite a lot of it was due to clearance issues with the width across the cylinders being a big problem. They tended to remove the copings from platform ramps on non-GW lines.

Yes, I wondering if clearance might have been the issue, shame as I gather Oxley had a couple of those lovely 72XX tanks.  

 

Based on the stock we already have (and the types we'd like to see included) it looks like we're focusing in on the 1960 - 65 period.

[Mark Forrest]

How about Roundy,Roundy but scenary on all sides including the 'Fiddle Yard' which can be a modelled yard/exchange sidings thus more scope for the fantastic buildings that appeared?   although you may need 1 or 2 sidings behind the backscene to save the 'Hand of God' coming down to place stock on the line.

 I quite like the idea of the stock in the fiddle yard being visible; at exhibitions there are always a few people who seem to be more interested in the fiddle yard than what's out front!

 

The difficulty would be that operationally the fiddle yard won't really represent a yard or exchange sidings; you would mainly see fixed rakes parked up awaiting their next 15 minutes of fame (perhaps not 15 minutes, they don't travel that slowly).

 

We have talked about avoiding using the centre of a roundy-round as an operating well; operating the scenic section as we do now (with 2 or 3 drivers positioned at either end of the layout), with another out back in control of the fiddle yard.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

 

 

It's an interesting point Dave, must admit I didn't foresee selling it being one of the suggested next steps put forward when starting this thread 

For me it is all about research and making stuff (mainly rolling stock in my case), but think it's fair to say we also enjoy a bit of showing off, not to mention the social element of being out there on the exhibition circuit.

 

 

I think it'd be a challenge to find another project that we'd all get behind in the same way as we did with BCB.  At the last count our future projects (some of which were put on hold while we built BCB) were in 3 different scales and 5 different gauges.  I expect (hope) that the future, other than continuing to work together to improve BCB, looks like a combined effort to capitalise on our individual strengths to complete these individual projects to a standard that we are happy with.

 

...no worries Mark. I wasn't aware of the whole story re how your group formed etc and was trying to get a handle on individual motivations.

Without question there is room in the hobby for a dynamic group of layout builders visiting people who say that they have no space for a layout before going on to demonstrate just how many options there are...all filmed and presented on websites such as this.

 

Dave

[TheSignalEngineer]

Yes, I wondering if clearance might have been the issue, shame as I gather Oxley had a couple of those lovely 72XX tanks.  

 

Based on the stock we already have (and the types we'd like to see included) it looks like we're focusing in on the 1960 - 65 period.

In the early 1960s the likely stock on the South Staffs Line would have been mainly Black 5s, 8fs, Super Ds (pre'65), Ivatt 2 tender loco, occasional WD, Stanier Mogul, Stanier 2-6-4T worked the Palethorpes, Canton 9f on the Regent tanks to Soho Pool. Great Bridge shunt loco was sometimes an LMS diesel shunter, early type. Besides the County at Walsall the only reference I have seen to GWR tender locos was on the southern end of the line for Dudley excursions.

[Mark Forrest]

That sounds like the sort of mix of locos we've been leaning towards, guess the majority of these would be locally allocated (except the 9F)?  

 

I've seen a few photos of 9Fs approaching Wolves from the Shrewsbury direction on 45T Shell/BP tanks does anybody known the origin/destination of these?

[andymozza]

That sounds like the sort of mix of locos we've been leaning towards, guess the majority of these would be locally allocated (except the 9F)?  

 

I've seen a few photos of 9Fs approaching Wolves from the Shrewsbury direction on 45T Shell/BP tanks does anybody known the origin/destination of these?

Hi, Most likely Stanlow - Rowley Regis. Routed Wolves L.L, Dudley via Preistfield then down the "Bumble Hole" to Old Hill. Andy.

[Mark Forrest]

Fortunately, we already have an idea of traffic flows to and from our steelworks in this period, thanks to Arthur's earlier contribution:
 

1950 -1971: Open Hearth Steelworks.
 
Inwards; coal (and heavy oil post 1955 for open hearths), pig iron (pig iron wagons), steel scrap, limestone, small amounts of iron ore, dolomite (L type containers), ingot moulds.
 
Outwards; ingots, blooms, billets, rolled sections, bagged steel slag as agricultural fertiliser, bulk slag as ballast/roadstone.

 

Looks like much more variety and some interesting wagons types, so that should keep us busy!
 

[Mark Forrest]

Hi, Most likely Stanlow - Rowley Regis. Routed Wolves L.L, Dudley via Preistfield then down the "Bumble Hole" to Old Hill. Andy.

 

Thanks for that.  In our 1975 timetable, we operate a Shell working from Stanlow, to provide the heavy oil for the steelwork's open hearth.  I'm wondering if this might have been more likely to be tripped in from somewhere locally in the early '60s or whether it might also have arrived from Stanlow behind a 9F?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that.  In our 1975 timetable, we operate a Shell working from Stanlow, to provide the heavy oil for the steelwork's open hearth.  I'm wondering if this might have been more likely to be tripped in from somewhere locally in the early '60s or whether it might also have arrived from Stanlow behind a 9F?

I think you could logically justify it either way - a train to somewhere else putting off a portion or a train which has already put off somewhere else terminating then engine off to turn and and back to restart the journey home with its first portion of empties.  Or tripped in from a yard where a portion was detached.

[Arthur]

 

Looks like much more variety and some interesting wagons types, so that should keep us busy!

 

Busy? Oh yes......a very quick guesstimation of traffic in and out for a works of the type envisioned for the 1960-65 period suggests the the sidings would handle around 150 wagons a day, 365 days a year. Better buy some shares in Parkside.....

 

As for the oil, currently portrayed operations have the works taking in oil for re-heating furnaces. In the 1960-65 period, the works is making steel in open hearth furnaces and that would require significantly more oil.

 

As for actual traffic in the period, Bilston probably fired it's steel furnaces with oil, I can check, if so, there would have been a considerable inwards traffic.

[Mark Forrest]

Busy? Oh yes......a very quick guesstimation of traffic in and out for a works of the type envisioned for the 1960-65 period suggests the the sidings would handle around 150 wagons a day, 365 days a year. Better buy some shares in Parkside.....

 

Just as well that we'll be increasing fiddle yard capacity then!

[Mark Forrest]

Nice photo of Bescot which would be, I think, in period:

Bescot Steam by Granradjd, on Flickr

 

 

Think I quite like those Standard 4 moguls, looks like there were a couple at local sheds at that time.

[Mark Forrest]

Right, that's the track plan for the fiddle yard sorted:

Bescot Yards by bescotbeast, on Flickr

[Mark Forrest]

Last one for tonight:

Bescot View by Tutenkhamun Sleeping, on Flickr

[Arthur]

Right, that's the track plan for the fiddle yard sorted:

Bescot Yards by bescotbeast, on Flickr

Looks about right, here's the coal reception sidings at BSC Margam in 1969..........

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

That sounds like the sort of mix of locos we've been leaning towards, guess the majority of these would be locally allocated (except the 9F)?  

 

I've seen a few photos of 9Fs approaching Wolves from the Shrewsbury direction on 45T Shell/BP tanks does anybody known the origin/destination of these?

Most of the locos were from Bescot or Stourbridge, with odd ones from Bushbury, Saltley, Monument Lane, Nuneaton, etc. The Gloucester - Bescot run used to throw up a 4F at times and the Eckington - Round Oak should normally have a Barrow Hill engine. 'Foreigners' also put in an appearance, Jan Ford reporting a WD on the Eckington and a Jubilee on the Stourport coal. By the 1960s most of the passenger trains were DMUs, although Tyseley Prairies worked into Dudley from Snow Hill, as did 14xx and 64xx tanks on Auto trains in previous times.

[The Stationmaster]

Busy? Oh yes......a very quick guesstimation of traffic in and out for a works of the type envisioned for the 1960-65 period suggests the the sidings would handle around 150 wagons a day, 365 days a year. Better buy some shares in Parkside.....

 

As for the oil, currently portrayed operations have the works taking in oil for re-heating furnaces. In the 1960-65 period, the works is making steel in open hearth furnaces and that would require significantly more oil.

 

As for actual traffic in the period, Bilston probably fired it's steel furnaces with oil, I can check, if so, there would have been a considerable inwards traffic.

Is that 150 loaded Arthur?  (and by that I mean the total of both inwards loaded and outwards loaded - and therefore getting on for 150 empties as well).

[Arthur]

Mike,

 

Yes, as the wagons in (minerals largely), would not be suitable for the traffic outwards (steel products) that's 150 wagons in and out. The calculation, very roughly, is works production 350,000 ingot tons/annum (modest for the day) out, produced from the same amount of scrap and pig iron going in, so there's 700,000 tons per year. Add in something for wastage and rubbish in the scrap, fuel oil, some coal and ore, limestone, dolomite and refractory bricks in, and slag out, and you are up to around 1 million tons. I've taken an average wagon load as 18 tons (that's probably a bit high?) so that's around 150 wagons, in and out, every day.

 

As a check, in 1957/8 BR and Lancashire Steel opened new reception sidings for the Irlam works on the adjacent CLC lines. Now Irlam was a bigger works, probably twice the size of the fictional Trafalgar, and with blast furnaces. With that in mind, just over four years later they celebrated handling the millionth wagon, so around 650 wagons per day (and much of Irlams ore came direct from the wharf on the Manchester Ship Canal).

Edited February 22, 2014 by Arthur

[Siberian Snooper]

 

Right, that's the track plan for the fiddle yard sorted:

Bescot Yards by bescotbeast, on Flickr

 

Will it be ready for EM Norf.

 

edit for missed y

Edited February 22, 2014 by Siberian Snooper

[The Stationmaster]

Mike,

 

Yes, as the wagons in (minerals largely), would not be suitable for the traffic outwards (steel products) that's 150 wagons in and out. The calculation, very roughly, is works production 350,000 ingot tons/annum (modest for the day) out, produced from the same amount of scrap and pig iron going in, so there's 700,000 tons per year. Add in something for wastage and rubbish in the scrap, fuel oil, some coal and ore, limestone, dolomite and refractory bricks in, and slag out, and you are up to around 1 million tons. I've taken an average wagon load as 18 tons (that's probably a bit high?) so that's around 150 wagons, in and out, every day.

 

As a check, in 1957/8 BR and Lancashire Steel opened new reception sidings for the Irlam works on the adjacent CLC lines. Now Irlam was a bigger works, probably twice the size of the fictional Trafalgar, and with blast furnaces. With that in mind, just over four years later they celebrated handling the millionth wagon, so around 650 wagons per day (and much of Irlams ore came direct from the wharf on the Manchester Ship Canal).

Thanks Arthur - I would think 18 tons might be a bit high for the coal but it really depends on the grade and lump size so it could be ok if it was small coal/duff although iron ore would invariably be loaded right up to tonnage capacity and still be less than the cubic capacity of many more modern wagons such as Ore Tipplers.  Overall it would make the yard quite busy especially as train length would be limited by siding length rather than trailing load tonnage (with the possible exception of the ore trains).

 

Any way 150 loads in = 150 empties out, plus another 150 empties in =150 loaded out means that Trafalgar yard would be working its way through 600 wagons a day so c.3,500 per week (depending on the length of the Saturday shifts) although the feed for the blast furnaces would probably work on a 7 day basis of course.  I can see a definite need to enlarge the steelworks part of the fiddle yard, plus needing a lot more wagons.  In practice some of the traffic would inevitably have to be staged/regulated through a nearby yard because of lack of siding space which translates into lots of local trip working so clearly there is a need to get the period absolutely precise in order to ensure a fleet of Bescot 'Duck Eights' are in use   

[Arthur]

Sorry Mike, I wasn't clear, half that, 150 wagons would be entering and leaving each day (some arriving loaded and leaving empty, others arriving empty and leaving loaded), so 300 movements a day, otherwise as you say. My notes were really just to highlight that the works sidings in the 1960s would have been very busy indeed.